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Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?

Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« on: March 13, 2019, 04:36:41 PM »
I posted in the Prophet Rev2 forum, as I've tested and confirmed this method of Voice-Component-Modeling on the Rev2... (A method to better model classic VCO poly synths, as well as real world acoustic/analog instruments)

http://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com/vcm.aspx

The exact same method SHOULD WORK on the P08, as it has the same Gated Sequencer and Mod Matrix setup, from my understanding.  I'd love to hear from some of you P08 vets, and get a confirmation whether this works on your board. 

1. Set Osc1 and Osc2 fine tuning to -31. 
This offset will allow a center-point to work from in Gated Seq setup.

2. Setup the Gated Sequencer

a. Set Gated Seq to "Key Step" Mode

b. Gated Seq Lane 1: Will be routed/scaled to Osc 1 Freq via Mod Matrix
Set a reset at step seven (for a six voice emulation), and then dial in some random values between ~54-70 (with 62 being centerpoint)... Don't set Gated Seq Destination... leave it to destination: off.   

c. Gated Seq Lane 2: Will be routed/scaled to Osc 2 Freq via Mod Matrix
Set a reset at the same step as sequence 1, and then dial in similar values here ~54-70... for per voice fine tuning.  Again, don't set destination here, just the six values and the reset on step seven.

Note:  Each incremented value will equal ~0.38 cents change to fine tuning (ie: +3 will equal a little over 1 cent sharp, and -3 would be a little under 1 cent flat.   We're using 62 as the centerpoint for this setup...  Above, we set Osc1 and Osc2 fine tuning to -31 to compensate for the centerpoint.   Value of 62 means "perfectly in tune"

3. Setup the Mod Matrix for Fine Tune Scaling of Freq:

a. Mod Matrix 1: 
Set source to Seq 1, Set destination to Osc Freq 1, Set amount to 1.

b. Mod Matrix 2: 
Set source to Seq 2, Set destination to Osc Freq 2, Set amount to 1.

Note:   The value that is passed on to the Osc Frequency is going to be a fraction of 1.   It will be the number set in the Gated Sequencer (62 for example), divided by the Max Gated Sequencer Value (125), multiplied by the Mod Matrix amount (1).   So if the value of the Gated Sequencer step is 62, we're sending on 62/125*1 = 0.496     In step one, we set offsets of -31 fine tuning for each oscillator, so the net effect of a value of 62 should cancel out the offset and we should be perfectly tuned.   You might wanna test / double check on the P08... I'm assuming the values scale the same as on the Rev2.   

Alright, now test things out!   Every key press should advance the Gated Sequencer by one Key Step, giving you a sort of virtual six voice instrument.   Each step of the sequence will have unique values for Osc1 and Osc2 fine tuning, giving you a slightly different detuned character per-voice.  It gives a more organic feeling, since each voice (and each osc) has unique tuning imperfections. 

Try holding down a chord, and you'll notice the natural motion/phasing associated with each oscillator having slightly different tuning.  If you tried to achieve the same sort of per-voice character using Osc Slop, you would have a bunch of randomness, and exaggerated/artificial tuning motion added onto the more natural wave motion of oscillators that have more stable tuning offsets...

If it's too wild sounding, try dialing back the Gated Seq values closer to 62 per step.  If you want more character on a per-voice basis, scale the values out further away from 62.  If you want to emulate a Memory Moog with one bad voice, set the step six to have much higher or lower values.   

Note:   For each step, you may want to keep the values of the #1 and #2 sequence close to each other, while still having slight variations.   This emulates a situation where the voice as a whole has a sharp or flat tendency, yet the oscillators still have slight offsets.   

If you're willing to sacrifice to additional mod slots, you can use an alternate per-voice detuning method, modeling intonation offsets.  In this case, Route Mod Matrix 1 Destination to another slot with a value of 1 (or -1) (ie: Dest Matrix 3 Amount)   Now for Matrix 3, set source to Note Num, destination to Osc Freq 1 and amount to 1.   Now you have per-voice intonation offset for Osc Frequency.  You'll want to scale all the Gated sequencer value way down (between 0-12 maybe)... and you may need to adjust main Osc Fine Tuning to compensate for the intonation tuning...  ie: dial it in so around middle of keyboard things are close to perfect tuning, but as you get into low or high registers, then voices with higher values will have a sharp of flat tendancy (depending on whether you chose Mod Matrix 1 value of 1 or -1)

Tons of other options to try for virtual voice setups with per-voice behavior for a variety of destinations in the Osc section, but also you can target VCF, VCA, and Envelope behavior, and by using Mod Matrix scaling, you can get fine tuned variance when needed.



« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 04:51:57 PM by creativespiral »

Voice Component Modeling (VCM) Soundset - 128 Patches for the Prophet Rev2 - NOW AVAILABLE on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/p/figZ/

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2019, 01:44:57 PM »
creativespiral,  Does this concept work ok on notes that a sustained, or just quicker sequence type stuff?   Seems like a lot of labor, but I'd be willing to try this sometime when I get a chance.
DSI Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Evolver desktop, Prophet 8,  Pro-2, OB6, P-12
 

https://Soundcloud.com/wavescape-1

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2019, 03:17:24 PM »
Hey Soundquest - this method excels at improving organic/analog sound on sustained or held chords... that's actually where you'll hear the biggest improvements.   

As you hold down chords, you'll hear the subtle, natural phasing/detuning motion associated with having multiple voices (and multiple oscillators) each with their own slight offsets... like you would hear when doing the same on a classic VCO synth. 

It works equally well if modeling strings, brass, wind instruments, organs or other real world analog ensembles where you would have voice-by-voice offsets and imperfections.

I just uploaded my first video with example of Voice Modeling here:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB9HG3k3vvQ

I plan on producing several more videos on the subject soon... I'm currently working on a bank of 128 custom sounds using Voice Modeling techniques.   In coming days, I'll be uploading a bunch more content with examples of modeled classic synthesizers and real world ensembles (trumpets, flutes, strings, organs, etc)

Let me know if you have any questions, or if it works on the P08. 

Voice Component Modeling (VCM) Soundset - 128 Patches for the Prophet Rev2 - NOW AVAILABLE on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/p/figZ/

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 06:40:46 PM »
creativespiral,

I got a chance to work with this.  It works on the PO8 with those settings.   Iv'e always noticed that the osc. slop knob effect on both PO8 and PEK is very subtle, in fact too subtle for my ears at least, and almost imperceptible on an oscilloscope unless you have at least two oscillators going, at which point you see some phasing on the oscilloscope.   I tried to apply this to the PEK.  Using the mid point of "62" on the gated sequencer and a fine tuning of -24 on osc 1 & 2 seemed to do the trick.  Mod 1 and 2 set as you described at +1.  The incremental changes seem a bit more pronounced on PEK.  Therefore I set ranges between 57-65 and that seemed to suffice.   

So thanks!  This seems like a nice trick to make this sort of variation on these instruments.  The P12 has "random" which you can apply per keystep, plus better slop features which somewhat eliminates this need, plus, it doesn't have a seq anyway, so this couldn't be done.  I'll have to see how it works in with the digital oscillators on PEK too.   
DSI Equipment: Poly Evolver Keyboard, Evolver desktop, Prophet 8,  Pro-2, OB6, P-12
 

https://Soundcloud.com/wavescape-1

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 01:12:21 PM »
I think this is similar to my post about "more slop" in the Mopho X4 forum. I really like the effect it has. I'll give yours a try, too. Thanks!

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2019, 09:45:08 PM »
Very impressive.  A lot of thought a creativity went into those techniques. 
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Cubase DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2019, 12:55:13 PM »
I registered on this forum just to comment on this topic. I love this technique, after watching your demo with the Rev2. I just tried this on my Prophet 08, and it sounds great. Very characterful!

I'm curious how you apply VCM to acoustic instruments. Are you going to post more details about that approach?

Thanks!

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 03:35:58 PM »
Just so I understand this right, when you are setting the gated seq lane 1 and 2 to values of 54-70, this is moving the notes by semi-tones, and in this case, it's jumping 2 octaves. Is this right, or am I missing something?


I posted in the Prophet Rev2 forum, as I've tested and confirmed this method of Voice-Component-Modeling on the Rev2... (A method to better model classic VCO poly synths, as well as real world acoustic/analog instruments)

http://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com/vcm.aspx

The exact same method SHOULD WORK on the P08, as it has the same Gated Sequencer and Mod Matrix setup, from my understanding.  I'd love to hear from some of you P08 vets, and get a confirmation whether this works on your board. 

1. Set Osc1 and Osc2 fine tuning to -31. 
This offset will allow a center-point to work from in Gated Seq setup.

2. Setup the Gated Sequencer

a. Set Gated Seq to "Key Step" Mode

b. Gated Seq Lane 1: Will be routed/scaled to Osc 1 Freq via Mod Matrix
Set a reset at step seven (for a six voice emulation), and then dial in some random values between ~54-70 (with 62 being centerpoint)... Don't set Gated Seq Destination... leave it to destination: off.   

c. Gated Seq Lane 2: Will be routed/scaled to Osc 2 Freq via Mod Matrix
Set a reset at the same step as sequence 1, and then dial in similar values here ~54-70... for per voice fine tuning.  Again, don't set destination here, just the six values and the reset on step seven.

Note:  Each incremented value will equal ~0.38 cents change to fine tuning (ie: +3 will equal a little over 1 cent sharp, and -3 would be a little under 1 cent flat.   We're using 62 as the centerpoint for this setup...  Above, we set Osc1 and Osc2 fine tuning to -31 to compensate for the centerpoint.   Value of 62 means "perfectly in tune"

3. Setup the Mod Matrix for Fine Tune Scaling of Freq:

a. Mod Matrix 1: 
Set source to Seq 1, Set destination to Osc Freq 1, Set amount to 1.

b. Mod Matrix 2: 
Set source to Seq 2, Set destination to Osc Freq 2, Set amount to 1.

Note:   The value that is passed on to the Osc Frequency is going to be a fraction of 1.   It will be the number set in the Gated Sequencer (62 for example), divided by the Max Gated Sequencer Value (125), multiplied by the Mod Matrix amount (1).   So if the value of the Gated Sequencer step is 62, we're sending on 62/125*1 = 0.496     In step one, we set offsets of -31 fine tuning for each oscillator, so the net effect of a value of 62 should cancel out the offset and we should be perfectly tuned.   You might wanna test / double check on the P08... I'm assuming the values scale the same as on the Rev2.   

Alright, now test things out!   Every key press should advance the Gated Sequencer by one Key Step, giving you a sort of virtual six voice instrument.   Each step of the sequence will have unique values for Osc1 and Osc2 fine tuning, giving you a slightly different detuned character per-voice.  It gives a more organic feeling, since each voice (and each osc) has unique tuning imperfections. 

Try holding down a chord, and you'll notice the natural motion/phasing associated with each oscillator having slightly different tuning.  If you tried to achieve the same sort of per-voice character using Osc Slop, you would have a bunch of randomness, and exaggerated/artificial tuning motion added onto the more natural wave motion of oscillators that have more stable tuning offsets...

If it's too wild sounding, try dialing back the Gated Seq values closer to 62 per step.  If you want more character on a per-voice basis, scale the values out further away from 62.  If you want to emulate a Memory Moog with one bad voice, set the step six to have much higher or lower values.   

Note:   For each step, you may want to keep the values of the #1 and #2 sequence close to each other, while still having slight variations.   This emulates a situation where the voice as a whole has a sharp or flat tendency, yet the oscillators still have slight offsets.   

If you're willing to sacrifice to additional mod slots, you can use an alternate per-voice detuning method, modeling intonation offsets.  In this case, Route Mod Matrix 1 Destination to another slot with a value of 1 (or -1) (ie: Dest Matrix 3 Amount)   Now for Matrix 3, set source to Note Num, destination to Osc Freq 1 and amount to 1.   Now you have per-voice intonation offset for Osc Frequency.  You'll want to scale all the Gated sequencer value way down (between 0-12 maybe)... and you may need to adjust main Osc Fine Tuning to compensate for the intonation tuning...  ie: dial it in so around middle of keyboard things are close to perfect tuning, but as you get into low or high registers, then voices with higher values will have a sharp of flat tendancy (depending on whether you chose Mod Matrix 1 value of 1 or -1)

Tons of other options to try for virtual voice setups with per-voice behavior for a variety of destinations in the Osc section, but also you can target VCF, VCA, and Envelope behavior, and by using Mod Matrix scaling, you can get fine tuned variance when needed.

Re: Voice Component Modeling - Try on P08?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2019, 08:16:38 PM »
Hey CrosModThis - sorry for the delay on response - have not been following this thread really, since I don't own the P08... only the Rev2.   

So, in the Gated Sequencer, you don't want to directly assign the lanes to Osc1 Freq or Osc2 Freq as the values are too coarse...  instead, you leave the destination blank in the gated seq and use a Mod Matrix slot set with

Mod Slot:
Source:  Seq1
Dest: Osc1Freq
Amount: 1

Mod Slot
Source: Seq2
Dest: Osc2Freq
Amount: 1

This takes the values in the Gated Sequencer (55-70) and fractionally scales them down to pass on to frequency.   It take whatever the value is (55 for instance), and divides it by the max value for the gated seq values (125) to get the value passed on...   so it becomes 55/125 = 0.44 is the value passed on to Osc Freq based on 55 value in the gated sequencer step...   We're using the mod matrix to scale down values into a usable micro-tuning range.   

FYI: I released a patch bank today for the Prophet Rev2... there's demos of about twenty of the patches in this video: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WleQ2KrN8HY

Unfortunately, Rev2 patches are not backward compatible with the P08, but you can get an idea of what Voice Modeling techniques can sound like, and should be able to replicate these sounds on P08, minus some of the features that are unique to Rev2. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 08:21:54 PM by creativespiral »

Voice Component Modeling (VCM) Soundset - 128 Patches for the Prophet Rev2 - NOW AVAILABLE on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/p/figZ/