Voice Component Modeling with the Prophet Rev2

Blueskytech · « **Reply #60 on:** August 07, 2019, 05:01:08 AM »

Just purchased your sound bank and in my opinion this is a must have for any Rev2 owner. I also shared your youtube video exploring overtone stability with a couple friends and they all loved. Seriously this is some excellent work and you should keep following whatever path sparks your interest because it is certainly paying dividends.

creativespiral · « **Reply #61 on:** August 08, 2019, 02:26:56 PM »

Quote from: Blueskytech on August 07, 2019, 05:01:08 AM

Just purchased your sound bank and in my opinion this is a must have for any Rev2 owner. I also shared your youtube video exploring overtone stability with a couple friends and they all loved. Seriously this is some excellent work and you should keep following whatever path sparks your interest because it is certainly paying dividends.

Thanks Bluesky! Glad you're enjoying the VCM patch bank!

I'm currently working on a NI Reaktor synth build... It started as a prototype of voice modeling features I wanted to test, but it has bloomed into a sort of mega-poly-synth... it's a digital version of my dream analog synth, combining favorite features from Poly Evolver, Prophet Rev2, and Moog One. (16 voice binaural stereo osc routing and amp panning, dual filter setup with flexible routing, analog style core oscillators with shape mod, digital wavetable osc option, expansive voice modeling system, super flexible LFOs, and a ridiculously huge mod matrix with tons of transform options) Once its finished, I'll post some more info about it.

rhullings · « **Reply #62 on:** August 09, 2019, 02:01:01 PM »

I just got this too, it's really great. So many actually useful sounds, for me at least. I've been addicted to the binaural thing for a while and there are lots of those kind of patches, so I'm pretty psyched. Thanks!

creativespiral · « **Reply #63 on:** August 11, 2019, 04:32:48 PM »

Quote from: rhullings on August 09, 2019, 02:01:01 PM

I just got this too, it's really great. So many actually useful sounds, for me at least. I've been addicted to the binaural thing for a while and there are lots of those kind of patches, so I'm pretty psyched. Thanks!

Thanks Rhullings! Glad you're finding the patches useful.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of binaural stereo signal paths. That's one of my favorite aspects of Poly Evolver, and with the bi-timbral capabilities of the Rev2, you can achieve similar results - routing oscillators hard left and right.

Combined with the Voice Modeling offsets, it can result in a huge/wide stereo field with a ton of definition, or a sort of double-tracked-synth type of sound. For string and brass ensemble patches, it makes them sound much more like full orchestras.

creativespiral · « **Reply #64 on:** August 23, 2019, 10:59:16 PM »

This is an example of a Lead patch included in the Voice Component Modeling bank for the Prophet Rev2.

I'm a big progressive rock fan, and Steven Wilson / Porcupine Tree are near the top of my list. This searing prog rock lead tone is modeled after Adam Holzman's Moog Square Lead from "Regret #9" on the Hand Cannot Erase album. It uses both layers of the bitimbral Rev2 engine for a wide, binaural stereo image, and has dynamic performance modulation and built in effects. It also uses voice-modeling to give each voice and each oscillator unique offsets for a more organic, classic analog type of sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qllu_9l-TI

gernotreininger · « **Reply #65 on:** August 23, 2019, 11:47:47 PM »

Quote from: creativespiral on August 23, 2019, 10:59:16 PM

This is an example of a Lead patch included in the Voice Component Modeling bank for the Prophet Rev2.

I'm a big progressive rock fan, and Steven Wilson / Porcupine Tree are near the top of my list. This searing prog rock lead tone is modeled after Adam Holzman's Moog Square Lead from "Regret #9" on the Hand Cannot Erase album. It uses both layers of the bitimbral Rev2 engine for a wide, binaural stereo image, and has dynamic performance modulation and built in effects. It also uses voice-modeling to give each voice and each oscillator unique offsets for a more organic, classic analog type of sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qllu_9l-TI

Great. I love Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree and try to watch Steven everytime he does a show in Vienna. I purchased your bank some weeks ago but didn't have the time to dig deeper but now I have got some extra motivation 🙂

guyaguy · « **Reply #66 on:** January 19, 2020, 05:55:40 PM »

I finally spent some time playing around with this. (I had been playing more with mono synths.) This really does make for richer, fuller vintage synth-type sounds. It seems like the filters react differently as well. That may be my imagination but it wouldn't surprise me since there's more harmonic content hitting the filter--sort of like the overtone effects Kevin Shields gets by using vibrato while playing.

The only drawback for me is that it eats up the gated sequencer, which I like using for synced stepped modulation. But there are some workarounds: Use Velocity as Source instead of the Sequencer and route the destination LFO Amount in the Matrix. Since invariably each strike of a key will have slightly different velocity (at least it will with my limited ability!), each note played will vary in its jitter amount. Of course it won't replicate the modeling effect of the round robining of voices pitched slightly differently. But it will provide enough richness for patches where you want to use the gated sequence for other things like notes, filter cutoff, effects, etc. So I'll probably use 2 Init presets--one for patches I plan to use without other gated sequencer modulation and one for patches in which I plan to use the gated sequencer.

Just for fun I set up a voice model where the 5th note produces no sound to model a Juno 106 with a dead voice chip!

Thanks again for the work on this and for sharing it, @creativespiral!

creativespiral · « **Reply #67 on:** January 27, 2020, 09:36:25 AM »

Hey Guyaguy, glad you got a chance to check it out! Yeah, it definitely does alter the harmonic content hitting the filter section. Technically, the VCM in the oscillator section results in a bunch of natural phasing that is present in all VCO poly synths, and acoustic ensembles. If you analyze the combined oscillator output after the osc section, but before the filter, you can see it creates more complex / less sterile waveform with movement, and all of its harmonic peculiarities.

In addition, I've found that applying VCM routings to the Filter Cutoff Destination further creates that sort of classic analog sound, as each voice's filter has slightly different cutoff position... emulating older/aged VCF chips. It's very noticeable playing chords with high resonance patches, or binaural stereo layered patches, as each voice/layer will have slight offsets in pronounced cutoff frequencies. You can also route VCM to filter envelope attack/decay, which produces a similar effect, where the moving cutoff peaks are slightly offset on a voice by voice basis. Note: the Rev2 does have VCFs, so this does occur naturally to some extent... that's why you have to re-calibrate sometimes... but if you want to really "virtually age" the Rev2 filter section, its definitely possible by routing directly to cutoff, or to attack/decay/release of the filter.

That's a good workaround to keep access to gated seq with velocity, using the fine tune scaling via mod matrix... although, the effect is extremely pronounced for very soft (ff) and and very strong (pp) strikes, even with using the minimum "1 amount" scaling trick in the matrix and counterbalancing the tuning in the osc section to medium velocity hits (mf/mp)... also, as you mentioned, it doesn't capture the voice rotation aspect. But, yeah, its a good option to have in the bag of tools!

guyaguy · « **Reply #68 on:** January 27, 2020, 01:49:24 PM »

Quote from: creativespiral on January 27, 2020, 09:36:25 AM

Hey Guyaguy, glad you got a chance to check it out! Yeah, it definitely does alter the harmonic content hitting the filter section. Technically, the VCM in the oscillator section results in a bunch of natural phasing that is present in all VCO poly synths, and acoustic ensembles. If you analyze the combined oscillator output after the osc section, but before the filter, you can see it creates more complex / less sterile waveform with movement, and all of its harmonic peculiarities.

In addition, I've found that applying VCM routings to the Filter Cutoff Destination further creates that sort of classic analog sound, as each voice's filter has slightly different cutoff position... emulating older/aged VCF chips. It's very noticeable playing chords with high resonance patches, or binaural stereo layered patches, as each voice/layer will have slight offsets in pronounced cutoff frequencies. You can also route VCM to filter envelope attack/decay, which produces a similar effect, where the moving cutoff peaks are slightly offset on a voice by voice basis. Note: the Rev2 does have VCFs, so this does occur naturally to some extent... that's why you have to re-calibrate sometimes... but if you want to really "virtually age" the Rev2 filter section, its definitely possible by routing directly to cutoff, or to attack/decay/release of the filter.

That's a good workaround to keep access to gated seq with velocity, using the fine tune scaling via mod matrix... although, the effect is extremely pronounced for very soft (ff) and and very strong (pp) strikes, even with using the minimum "1 amount" scaling trick in the matrix and counterbalancing the tuning in the osc section to medium velocity hits (mf/mp)... also, as you mentioned, it doesn't capture the voice rotation aspect. But, yeah, its a good option to have in the bag of tools!

The workaround is definitely a "poor man's version"! But the way I have it set up it doesn't make the effect over pronounced (unless desired) but still provides some richness and movement. And it leaves 2 LFOs and the gated sequencer free for modulating the filter, fx, etc. From a standard Init patch it's just routing a triangle LFO 1 to pitch with amount at 1 and a s&h LFO 2 to pitch with amount to 1. In the matrix Velocity is routed to LFO 1 and 2 amount at just 1 or 2. Then LFOs 1 and 2 are routed to shape with values in the negative so it's just not duplicating what the pitch is doing even though it's using the same LFO. Or a looped EG could be used instead if it's free. But the goal was to have a richer oscillator while leaving some LFOs free. It's not as rich as the VCM method but it provides enough movement to make the sound more lively than without it. Since there are more matrix slots than LFOs and EGs I'll probably play around with other variations--Noise to Shape, LFO1 slightly modulating LFO2 time, etc. I also like degradation and warped patches so taking it further can be fun too!

creativespiral · « **Reply #69 on:** January 27, 2020, 04:09:58 PM »

Oh, I misunderstood what you were doing... Are you trying to replicate the VCO Jitter Effect, or the Voice Component Modeling?

Those are two separate avenues I explored, and both were discussed in this thread. It sounds like you're replicating the VCO Jitter? The way you described what you're doing is basically the same: (ie: Two LFOs, one triangle, one random, to osc frequency via the mod matrix scaling)

This video explains the VCO Jitter effect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amhl07TVdNM

For clarity, the Voice Component Modeling (VCM) is a separate topic, which has a larger effect. I tested many classic VCO poly synths (Oberheim SEM4, OBX, OBXA, Prophet 5, Prophet 10, Korg Polysix, Yamaha CS-80, Jupiter 4, Jupiter 8 and other modern VCO synths) The primary finding I made (besides the VCO jitter), is that each voice on these classic VCO poly synths have unique offsets to Osc Tuning, Filter Behavior, and other characteristics, on a voice-by-voice, and component-by-component basis. These offsets tend to be stable, per-voice, per-component.

For example, if you measure Voice 1, Oscillator 1 of an OBX or other synth, you'll find that it has a specific tuning temperament that can be mapped across the keyboard. (the most common osc tuning behavior that I measured is an intonation based tuning offset / osc scaling offset that causes a given voice/osc to be "in tune" at a certain key, but get progressively flatter or sharper as you go up/down the keyboard. Different synths have different tendencies, and different voice allocation schemes.

It's important to note that if you keep that oscillator playing, or return to it again, it will have that same offset each time you hit it - the offsets have stability to them. They do have some high frequency jitter, but that's a different, and less noticeable aspect, at least in terms of polyphonic patches. The "perceived motion" that is heard when multiple VCO oscillators play together is "natural phasing" that is just a result of stable tuning offsets in juxtaposition with each other.

In contrast, when using Osc Slop, or LFOs, you get an artificial motion on top of that natural motion. LFOs/Slop artificially warp and swing the tuning of each oscillator, which is an un-realistic motion, if you're trying to get a classic VCO poly sound, or real acoustic ensemble. On the VCM website, I discuss this topic in further detail.

Anyways, it sounds like you may be accomplishing a sort of VCO Harmonic Jitter effect, based on how you described the your routing... I do still use this type of effect on some patches too, as it can "soften up" the harmonics. But the VCM I use on virtually all patches.

guyaguy · « **Reply #70 on:** January 27, 2020, 05:46:59 PM »

Quote from: creativespiral on January 27, 2020, 04:09:58 PM

Oh, I misunderstood what you were doing... Are you trying to replicate the VCO Jitter Effect, or the Voice Component Modeling?

Oh I tried both. VCM is great for playing keys or sequencing externally. But I'm using a simplified version of your jitter effect routing for patches that use the gated sequencer. Then I add velocity to vary the mod amount just to supply some variation.

It actually works out pretty well like that because my patches using the gated seq are pretty modulation heavy and/or have a shorter decay; so the phasing and nuances probably aren't as noticeable as with pads and legato patches. Those I'm more likely to play on the keys anyhow so using the VCM keystep method works out well for that!

newsynthguy · « **Reply #71 on:** March 06, 2020, 04:10:41 PM »

Are there next steps for you on this Jason? Any way I can help? I’m actually pretty shocked at how much of a difference this makes. Kudos, I feel like this discovery should be more widely known!

creativespiral · « **Reply #72 on:** March 06, 2020, 04:56:40 PM »

Hey @newsynthguy -

Glad you're enjoying Voice Modeling! Yeah, I have a few things on the horizon.

#1 - I've got a bunch of video and audio footage from my research phase for this topic - I recorded hundreds of samples from several classic synths: Oberheim OBX, OBXA, Roland Jupiter 4, Jupiter 8, Prophet 5, Prophet 10, Yamaha CS-80, Korg Polysix, MemoryMoog and several others. I've been meaning to edit it all together in a video presentation that shows the process I went through, and gives a video overview of Voice Modeling... basically a video version of the website I put together: http://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com - I think that will probably raise awareness of it. I'm really hoping that synth designers will implement it in future hardware and digital products. It greatly helps the sound of digital or DCO based synths, and even synths that are well tamed modern VCO synths could benefit from voice modeling... as it allows you to dial in the character of many classic synths. It sounds like Sequential may integrate voice modeling into future products. Chris (Pym) mentioned in this thread that he was working on it.

#2 - I've started working on a new bank of VCM patches for the Rev2... A sequel to the product I am currently selling https://sellfy.com/p/figZ/ A lot of people have purchased the current VCM bank, and the response has been really great. Thanks to everyone who has purchased, and thanks for the comments/feedback - it's very encouraging

#3 - I got into Native Instruments Reaktor a few months back, and I've been programming/wiring up a poly synth that I will be releasing, hopefully in the next few months. It started as a sort of exploration of voice modeling capabilities, but it has evolved into a fully featured digital poly synth with basically all of my favorite features from modern hardware poly synths - it takes a lot of inspiration from Evolver, Moog One, Rev2, and Super6. ie: parallel binaural stereo architecture, extensive mod matrix with tons of advanced modulation features, highly visual interface, super flexible LFOs and envelopes, an extensive digital effects section with modulation, and of course a fully featured voice modeling architecture. I'm calling it "PolyMage". Once it's complete, I will post about it on this forum and gearslutz. Here's a preview of the interface in its current state: http://www.polymagesynth.com/

I'm currently going through a house remodel / studio remodel, so I have not been able to get much progress on these items in the past couple months, but now nearing the finish line, so I'll be focused on them.

I could use some beta testers and patch designers soon for the Reaktor PolyMage synth, but would need people who have full versions of NI Reaktor 6.

newsynthguy · « **Reply #73 on:** March 10, 2020, 04:47:54 AM »

1. Amazing. Looking forward to it. I really hope hardware synth makers take note, to your point, having a great analog hardware synth with the ability to change the character of it via wavetables feels like a huge breakthrough.

2. Awesome! I already bought the first volume, hopefully you finish the second. I'd be curious if people would donate to something like this via Patreon, etc. I definitely would.

3. Doubly awesome. I'm 100% down to help beta test, etc. (I own R6).

creativespiral · « **Reply #74 on:** March 18, 2020, 12:05:49 AM »

Have been meaning to make a list of patches in the VCM Prophet Rev 2 sound bank... finally got around to it:

1   KEY ResoPluck VCM         Aggressive Resonant Pluck
2   KEY AnalogPluck VCM         Classic Analog Pluck
3   KEY PluckBow VCM         Plucky Bowed Synth
4   KEY XpercPlk VCM         Percussive Pluck
5   KEY BanditPlk VCM         Plucky Stab
6   KEY TemplePluck VCM         Percussive Eastern Pluck
7   KEY MysticPluck VCM         Eastern Pluck Buzz
8   KEY SuperClav VCM         Clavinet Supersticious
9   KEY EP WurLeslie VCM      Electric Piano Wurli with Leslie Speaker
10   KEY EP Rhodes VCM         Electric Piano Fender Rhodes
11   KEY EP PsycPhase VCM      Zeppelin No Quarter
12   KEY EP Everything VCM      Radiohead Everything
13   KEY PizzPluck VCM         Pizzicato Pluck
14   KEY EP Ethereal VCM         Electric Piano Ethereal
15   KEY BellSwirlPad VCM         Bell Key Pad
16   KEY EP Submarine VCM      Underwater Electric Piano
17   SYN VcoSawStab VCM      Classic Lead Saw Stab
18   SYN BrightStabSt VCM      Bright Stab
19   SYN GX1 JPJ Love2 VCM      Zeppelin All My Love
20   SYN MemMoog VCM         Memory Moog Punchy Res
21   SYN FourSawStereo VCM      Four Osc Saw in Stereo
22   SYN WaveChorus VCM      Chorus Synth
23   SYN ProChirp VCM         Wind Chirp Synth
24   SYN HugeSweep VCM         Tom Sawyer Sweep
25   SYN Omega 8V4O VCM      SE Omega Style 4 Osc Emulation
26   SYN Mmoog6V3Saw VCM      Memory Moog Style 3 Osc Saw
27   SYN 8V4O-Mega VCM         4 Oscillator Stack
28   SYN PolySaw OBX VCM      Oberheim OBX Emulation
29   SYN Dark Sector JC         Gated Seq Synth Rhythm
30   SYN ResoStab VCM         Resonant Stab Lead
31   SYN WindVox VCM         Synthetic Wind
32   SYN 80sRhythm VCM         Classic Synth Rhythm
33   BRS DynFlute2 VCM         Dynamic Flute Ensemble
34   BRS DynTrumpet VCM      Dynamic Trumpet Ensemble
35   BRS OBXABrass VCM         Classic OBXA Brass
36   BRS Vangel CS80 VCM      Vangelis CS-80 Style Brass Pad
37   BRS VCO OBX Simp JC      Simple Minds Don't You Forget About Me
38   BRS VCO OB Hybrid JC      OBXA Modified Brass
39   BRS VCOBrassSlow VCM      Classic Analog Brass Pad
40   BRS 80s Classic OB2T         Classic Analog Brass Lead
41   BRS Camera Eye VCM         Rush Camera Eye
42   BRS WideSawBrass VCM      Huge Stereo Brass Ensemble Pad
43   BRS JumpOBX SawPls VCM      Van Halen JUMP
44   BRS AnalogBrass VCM      Classic Analog Brass
45   BRS ClassChorus VCM      Classic Brass Chorus
46   BRS Flanger 2059 VCM      Soundtrack Brass Flange Pad
47   BRS Prophetic VCM         Classic Prophet Brass
48   BRS TrumpetEns VCM         Huge Brass Ensemble Concert Hall
49   STR MegaPWM 2 VCM         Mega Pulse Width Modulation
50   STR Ssaw Detune VCM      Supersaw Detune Emulation
51   STR DynStrings VCM         Dynamic String Ensemble
52   STR Orchestra VCM         Orchestral String Ensemble
53   STR Machine 330 VCM      Classic String Machine
54   STR Subdiv OBX VCM         Rush Subdivisions
55   STR Mmoog Swell VCM      Memory Moog Style Swell
56   STR EmoPhase VCM         Solo String Phased Lead
57   STR WideVCOStr VCM      Huge Stereo Synth Strings
58   STR SlowSomber VCM      Moody Soundtrack Strings
59   STR SmoothExp VCM         Expressive Control String Lead
60   STR DynEnsemble VCM      Huge Soundtrack String Ensemble
61   STR SynthetiPad VCM         80s Synthetic String Pad
62   STR SoloStrings VCM         Fast Attack Strings
63   STR ViolaSawSyn3 VCM      Synthetic Viola Strings
64   STR Prophetic8 VCM         Classic Prophet Synth Strings
65   PAD SolFlare CS8 VCM      CS-80 Piercing Soundtrack Pad
66   PAD Unveil CS8 VCM         CS-80 Brassy Soundtrack Pad
67   PAD Astral Choir VCM         Huge Ethereal Synthetic Choir Pad
68   PAD VCO Prophet 5         Mellow Classic Prophet Pad
69   PAD VCO Hybrid P5 JC      Stereo Prophet Pad
70   PAD VCO P5 PWM JC         Pulse Modulated Brassy Pad
71   PAD VCOPoly8 PWM VCM      Pulse Modulated String Pad
72   PAD Prophet VCF         Mellow Prophetic Pad
73   PAD Discovery 5 VCM         Filter Opening Pad
74   PAD Soft Pad VCM         Subtle Background Pad
75   PAD Discovery 5B VCM      Classic Analog Brassy Pad
76   PAD PulseWind VCM         Bright Brassy Airy Pad
77   PAD SpiritVox VCM         Choir Ensemble Pad
78   PAD ZPField VCM         Zero Point Field Pad
79   PAD ElecCityPWM VCM      Dirty Electric Pad
80   PAD Stargate VCM         Wide Filter Opening Pad
81   BRS Ceremony VCM         Brassy Filter Pad
82   BRS AnalogBrass VCM      Classic Analog Brassy Bass
83   BRS ClassChorus VCM      Classic Chorus Brass
84   BAS MoogySqr VCM         Classic Moog Square Bass
85   BAS MoogyThumb VCM      Percussive Moogy Bass Pluck
86   BAS Minitaur VCM         Buzzy Minitaur Bass
87   BAS ResoSync VCM         Hard Sync Resonant Bass
88   BAS Myxomatos VCM         Radiohead Myxomatosis Bass
89   LED-M PfunkBern VCM      Parliament Funkadelic Flashlight Lead
90   LED-M MoogSync VCM      Moogy Sync Lead
91   LED-M Cosmonaut VCM      Piercing Triangle Space Lead
92   LED-P WindMeth         Poly Lead Airy Wind Lead
93   LED-M BrkFree2 JCC         Queen I Want to Break Free Lead
94   LED-P Scaled Sync JC         Aggressive Sync Lead
95   LED-P PEK Organ ST J      Poly Evolver Pop Organ Lead
96   LED-M Saw4Stack VCM      Huge 4Osc Stack Lead
97   LED-M VCO StereoStac      Aggressive Stereo Stack Lead
98   LED-M VCO Holzman JC      Steven Wilson Regret 9 Lead
99   LED-M LetsGoCars VCM      Cars Lets Go Lead
100   LED-M SqrHolzman VCM      Adam Holzman Lead
101   LED-M Radiant VCM         Radiant Electronic Lead
102   LED-M BrassLead VCM      Aggressive Brassy Lead
103   LED-P WindVox VCM         Soft Poly Air Lead
104   LED-P Prog Organ VCM      Prog Rock Poly Organ Lead
105   LED-P ProphetStab VCM      Prophet Stab Lead
106   BAS Prores VCM           Prophet Resonant Bass
107   BAS NaturalSlap VCM         Natural Electric Bass
108   BAS Hybrid SH VCM         Hybrid SH Style Bass
109   BAS VoyagerStk VCM         Moog Voyager Stack Bass
110   BAS BodyPunch VCM         Bass with Meaty Tri Sub
111   LED-M FatUnison VCM      Fat Unison Lead
112   BAS AnalogHit VCM         Percussive Bass
113   ORG VCOrgan VCM         Bright Synth Organ
114   ORG PipeOrgan VCM         Huge Atmospheric Pipe Organ
115   ORG Leslie B3 VCM         B3 Style Organ
116   ORG VoxFIre VCM         Doors Light My Fire Organ
117   VCM 4V3O (Int, Jit)         VCM Template 4Voice, 3Osc, Intonation)
118   VCM 6V2O (FFJG)         VCM Template 6Voice, 2Osc, Per Voice)
119   VCM 6V3O (Int)           VCM Template 6Voice, 3Osc, Intonation)
120   VCM 5V2O (Int, Jit)         VCM Template 5Voice, 2Osc, Intonation)
121   VCM 8V2O (IIJG)         VCM Template 8Voice, 2Osc, Intonation)
122   STR StacattoStr VCM         Staccato String Plucks
123   BRS Ceremony VCM         Soundtrack Brass Bright Pad
124   BRS SlowJump VCM         Soundtrack Brass Buzzy Pad
125   STR Hybrid Pluck VCM      Hybrid String Pluck
126   PAD ColdFire VCM         Percussive Soundtrack Pad
127   STR PWMStab VCM         Pulse Modulated String Stab
128   VOX Humana Pmoog VCM      PolyMoog Vox Humana Gary Numan Cars

newsynthguy · « **Reply #75 on:** April 07, 2020, 10:44:03 AM »

Is there a way to simulate VCM inside Omnisphere 2?

Jason · « **Reply #76 on:** July 30, 2020, 03:19:05 PM »

I posted something like this on another thread and wanted to put it here too:

Back in December I started reading about the VCM techniques developed by Creativespiral and bought his patches. I just love what he has done! It's so clever, and it definitely gives me a lot more of the vintage feel than I ever had before. Another technique he uses a lot is hard panning, which is easy to do on the Rev2. (Quite often, I have an individual patch hard panned via the stacked layers... and then I also pan again with my Rev2 module as I learned from Sacred Synthesis, which of course gives even more richness and depth.) I find the results with all the panning combined with Creativespiral's techniques more satisfying than anything I did before. I started using Jason's templates to rework patches, and have done a lot of programming over the last several months. I borrowed a friend's KingKorg, which is digital but has a lot of well programmed classic patches and used it along with Jason's templates to come up with some of my favorite Rev2 patches. There is simply no comparison between the results that I'm getting now compared to when I was using the '08's. I have never been happier with my sounds!

I hope you continue to work on a second set.

Best Regards.
- (also) Jason

creativespiral · « **Reply #77 on:** August 01, 2020, 08:47:04 AM »

Quote from: Jason on July 30, 2020, 03:19:05 PM

Back in December I started reading about the VCM techniques developed by Creativespiral and bought his patches. I just love what he has done! It's so clever, and it definitely gives me a lot more of the vintage feel than I ever had before. Another technique he uses a lot is hard panning, which is easy to do on the Rev2. (Quite often, I have an individual patch hard panned via the stacked layers... and then I also pan again with my Rev2 module as I learned from Sacred Synthesis, which of course gives even more richness and depth.) I find the results with all the panning combined with Creativespiral's techniques more satisfying than anything I did before. I started using Jason's templates to rework patches, and have done a lot of programming over the last several months. I borrowed a friend's KingKorg, which is digital but has a lot of well programmed classic patches and used it along with Jason's templates to come up with some of my favorite Rev2 patches. There is simply no comparison between the results that I'm getting now compared to when I was using the '08's. I have never been happier with my sounds!

I hope you continue to work on a second set.

Best Regards.
- (also) Jason

Hey Jason - thanks for the kind words / review! Happy to hear you're enjoying the soundset and using VCM techniques on your patches. It definitely gives the Rev2 a ton of classic synth or acoustic ensemble character. DCOs in their natural state are just a bit too perfect. Using Slop produces a somewhat passable, but highly artificial sounding drift/motion. Individual voice modeling just makes each voice sound "right"... Like classic VCO poly synths, or like individual players/voices in an orchestra with slight variance to their instrument tunings of a couple cents each.

I am working on a new bank of VCM patches... have just been bouncing between patch creation on Rev2, Deepmind and Pro3, so progress has not been super fast. And family / young daughters are a constant distraction.

Anyways, looking forward to hearing more of your music soon! Cheers, Jason

creativespiral · « **Reply #78 on:** October 01, 2020, 07:46:28 PM »

Quote from: Pym on May 05, 2019, 11:16:39 PM

Yeah a lot of those ideas are in my notes to one degree or another. Once I end up exploring it more again I’ll try and communicate the process here. I’ll read through your site later this week and check out some of the specifics, sounds like you put a lot of effort into the exploration and we definitely went down very similar paths!

I’m exploring a one knob ‘seeded’ randomness per voice where it controls the range of each parameter that is then changed using the single slop knob. So maybe tuning is 0-+6 cents, vca attack is -1-+2 or whatever. But it starts at 0 for all voices. As you turn up the slop it moves them up to those values, scaling. The beauty being if you select the same random seed (maybe 0-127 or something) you can reproduce the slop behavior, and each voice number modified the seed the same way, so each voice is different but can be recalled with that seed value

Although I see the value given in full control over the offsets, this feels a little more random and ‘analog’ to me, but repeatable since you can save and recall the slop offsets

Just one of the ideas I had related to the topic

Quote from: creativespiral on May 02, 2019, 03:39:51 PM
Awesome, Chris! I'm excited to see what's up your sleeves! This method of defining per-voice variance with a sort of "lookup table" definitely adds some classic analog realism over random slop and more artificial detuning motion. The key is having fairly stable tuning per voice / per oscillator, but with unique offsets for each. And tackling other parameters in the VCO, VCF and VCA sections with per-voice offsets can really create unique analog character.

I went out a few weeks ago and captured samples of a bunch of synths and I have data tables of voice-by-voice tuning offsets for MemoryMoog, OBX, OBXA, OB SEM, CS80, Korg PolySix, Jupiter 4, Jupiter 8, Prophet 5 and Prophet 10... if you're interested. I will say, the predominant characteristic is that all of them have these tuning offsets, and most have significant intonation variance up and down the keyboard.. I've been playing with note number modulater to replicate it.

The handling of voice-allocation would be a good area to develop further, as there are a few distinct variants (round robin, reset to voice one, backtracking voice allocation, per key voice allocation, etc..) Currently the round robin approach is the only one available through the Rev2 modulation.

It's a testament to the design of the Rev2 that it works so well even with current implementation... but yeah, if we just had "another instance" of the gated sequencer dedicated to being a lookup table for this type of per-voice modulation offsets, I think it will be a really interesting feature on a future board. If it had a few more lanes of data (6 or 8 lanes), and ability to capture the different voice allocation schemes, that would be awesome!

Also, I was thinking it would be gravy if the lookup tables could be saved independent of presets... so you could just have prebuilt voice templates for a variety of different classic synths, along with variants of each where they have less-or-more voice character. Then you could load a patch, or an INIT patch, and then navigate through a list of voice modeled presets (Voice Modeling OFF | MemoryMoog Prime | MemoryMoog Hot and Humid | Prophet 5 | etc...... )

At the bottom of the VoiceComponentModeling.com web article, in Section 5, I outlined a bunch of "future wish list" items.
http://www.voicecomponentmodeling.com/vcm.aspx

Excited to see what comes next!

Cheers! - Jason

Nice!... looks like you got this implemented for New Prophet 5/10, with a single knob macro for offsets... Congrats on the Rev4!

Jason · « **Reply #79 on:** October 02, 2020, 04:25:20 PM »

I would love to hear some comparisons some day!

I wonder if you would give a more detailed run down of your templates some time. For example, do they all have similar amounts of jitter? Would one be better for monophonic patches? What is the difference between patches with different tuning settings (-4 vs. -32 if I remember right). Thanks!