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Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs

Mauro

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2019, 02:13:49 AM »
Here's a video with another look at the spectral graph, set to FFT Bins rather than Line mode, and changed from Log to Linear scaling...  just a different spectral view of same effect from first video.  (Watch that video first for context)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbHKgr5LbsI
Ehi CreativeSpiral, I can't se e both your videos, it says it's not available.
I'm very curious and appreciate your arguments.

maxter

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Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2019, 05:33:24 AM »
I think you may have upped the video as "private video", ie not viewable by other users.
The Way the Truth and the Life

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2019, 03:26:43 PM »
I mean routing a modulation source to affect the amount of the sequencer. I know the sequencers are not mod destinations, but you can work around it:
- leave seq destination blank
- assign the sequencer as source for a modulator in mod matrix, and set your destination there
- now modulate that modulator
Ah got it. It's been a while since I've played with the seq like that but I think I'll have to resume messing around with it. Definitely allows for some rich modulation. The Evo lets you modulate the seq clock; now that's one thing I'd love to see on the Rev2!

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2019, 12:20:01 AM »
I think you may have upped the video as "private video", ie not viewable by other users.

Thanks Maxter - yeah, it was set to private.... switched that, so should be viewable now.

Also, I uploaded a new video that includes a third VCO synth for comparison (the IK Uno).   (same basic analysis of sawtooth oscillators, but with 3 VCO Synthesizers, along with the Rev2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amhl07TVdNM

Sequential Pro 3 and Rev 2, Deepmind, PolyBrute - Sound Sets, Patch Banks - Available on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/sounddesign/

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2019, 01:23:28 AM »
It's really getting down into fine details... but that's sort of what this is all about...  DCOs produce a sound/character that is 95% of that of VCOs... its just a matter of figuring out that last 5%.

On a side note, I had a breakthrough (related to this, but slightly different), that has totally changed my thinking about VCO synth emulation.   I'm gonna do some more work on it... currently applying it to a bunch of my custom patches.  I'll have some thoughts (and patches) to share soon :)
 

I had a breakthrough today as well, I wonder if it's similar to yours.

For a few weeks now I've been researching options to warm up the Rev2's Curtis filter.  I've considered (stereo) external devices like the Strymon Deco, Analog Heat, Boss SE70, Vermona Retroverb Lancet, and the EHX Mod Rex.  Heck late tonight I even had a realization that I could possibly use my Line 6 HD500.  The idea was to warm the Rev2 patches and use program changes to line up the FX with the Rev2 programs.

But that's not the breakthrough.

I realized that the root cause of the unpleasant character was not only the filter but also the oscillators.  I listened very closely with headphones on to an INIT program, and heard artifacts. They're a bit like the crackling of fire, and it may be due to distortion in the signal.  There was also a very slow undulating in pitch/amplitude, but none of the LFOs were assigned.  I immediately thought of Creative Spiral and how he probably already noticed this and maybe even had a video with an oscilloscope or spectrum graph documenting these artifacts.

Anyhow, these realizations came as a breakthrough to me, and I started synthesizing a gentler, warmer, less-Curtis polysynth sound with interesting evolving motion using these techniques below.  The goal was to sweeten up the oscillators and change the response of the filter and envelopes away from the standard Rev2 defaults.

- LPF ENV routed to its own Attack and Decay to change the ENV shapes
- ENV3 source to LPF ENV AMT.  Envelope delay about one second, mushy attack, long decay, near zero sustain, enough release to avoid the "plop" sound.
- Very slow LFO and but near max AMT to OSC1 shape (assuming knob is fully counterclockwise).  Ditto for OSC2 shape using a different LFO.  Note that the audio artifacts are most noticeable on the default INIT saw.  Sweeping the shape very slowly provides something like a smooth filter sweep and minimizes the spiky or brassy character
- OSC MIX at 3 o'clock or more, favoring OSC2.  There is an unpleasant phasiness when both OSCs are heard equally. 
- OSC2 set an octave lower, matching OSC1 Sub.  Mixing these 2 is warmer, and these can be detuned more pleasantly.  OSC1 itself is only very lightly heard, contributing harmonics an octave above.

Of course the other standard warming techniques apply as well -- pan spread, slight (random) LFO to cutoff, slow pitch LFO with ENV3 used to delay the onset of the vibrato, low ENV AMT and keytracking, very slight Audio Mod, FX distortion around 140-150 with minimum tone and max mix.

Long story short -- slow waveshaping, varying ENV AMT with ENV3 or LPF ENV, and OSC mix favoring only one of the OSCs.  Like the story with the Andromeda OSCs distorting early, sometimes less is more.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 01:29:33 AM by psionic11 »
Moog One <> Prophet Rev2 16V <>  Andromeda <> Kronos 61 <> Nord Stage 2 HA76 <> Integra 7 <> Minilogue XD module <> Blofeld desktop <> Behringer Model D <> Minitaur <> Slim Phatty <> Matrix 1000 <> Micron <> Privia PX-5S <>  MODX7 <> TG77 <> ASM Hydrasynth <> Perform VE <> FCB1010

maxter

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Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2019, 06:20:16 AM »
Wow, it looks like you've really nailed it, creativespiral!

I really hope someone at Sequential is watching, because it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to implement a fine tune mod destination. And you've really showcased, imo, the need for it to properly emulate VCO behavior without sacrificing a sequencer and a couple of mod slots per OSC.

I think this has the potential to raise the Rev2s reputation more than anything else currently on the request list.

Huge kudos and thanks for this! What a favor for the community! I could see a "VCO-sim" (depth) -knob on future boards for this purpose, like the OSC-slop is implemented. Rev3 please!  ;D
The Way the Truth and the Life

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2019, 07:26:15 AM »
Really cool stuff dude. Just wanted to let you know that you can label your inputs in Ableton. I only found this out recently. I imagine it might be helpful if you leave the same instruments on the same inputs most of the time. https://i.imgur.com/AA0AtP2.png

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2019, 10:23:47 AM »
Wow, it looks like you've really nailed it, creativespiral!

I really hope someone at Sequential is watching, because it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to implement a fine tune mod destination. And you've really showcased, imo, the need for it to properly emulate VCO behavior without sacrificing a sequencer and a couple of mod slots per OSC.

I think this has the potential to raise the Rev2s reputation more than anything else currently on the request list.

Huge kudos and thanks for this! What a favor for the community! I could see a "VCO-sim" (depth) -knob on future boards for this purpose, like the OSC-slop is implemented. Rev3 please!  ;D

Thanks Maxter.   Yeah, I could definitely see a "VCO jitter" control being useful in future boards.

Just gimme a few more days...  I've got another thing that I'll be sharing that is more significant than this, and I think may completely "close that gap" between DCO and VCO synthesizers.. as well as improve modeling of other acoustic / analog instruments.    Also, I'll have a list of recommendations for improvements for future products... all stuff that should be minor to implement, but could provide substantial gains in character/tone...  I'm currently applying it to my custom patches, and it sounds amazing... I feel like I own a MemoryMoog, an OBXA and a CS80 now! 

Love my Rev2 and PEK, and am excited for the prospect of a Rev3 type board in the future!   


Sequential Pro 3 and Rev 2, Deepmind, PolyBrute - Sound Sets, Patch Banks - Available on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/sounddesign/

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2019, 10:27:38 AM »
Really cool stuff dude. Just wanted to let you know that you can label your inputs in Ableton. I only found this out recently. I imagine it might be helpful if you leave the same instruments on the same inputs most of the time. https://i.imgur.com/AA0AtP2.png

Thanks Philroy - yeah, I actually have this input naming set up in Ableton normally (it is a great addition to Live10), but in order to get OBS (screen broadcast software) to work correctly, I had to completely change up my audio routing with Asio4All, virtual cables and hours of yelling at my computer ;)   I should probably go ahead and rename all my inputs again with this Asio4All setup though.

Sequential Pro 3 and Rev 2, Deepmind, PolyBrute - Sound Sets, Patch Banks - Available on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/sounddesign/

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2019, 11:27:30 AM »
I realized that the root cause of the unpleasant character was not only the filter but also the oscillators.  I listened very closely with headphones on to an INIT program, and heard artifacts. They're a bit like the crackling of fire, and it may be due to distortion in the signal.
I'm sure many others have already done this, but I' still new to this synth and wanted to see (not just hear) how SHAPE MOD affects each of the oscillator waveforms.  (Pulse being the only one that's completely obvious.)  So I recorded some sweeps of the SHAPE MOD for each waveform and zoomed in on the waveforms in my DAW.  It seems the general case is that there are two waveforms generated and SHAPE MOD selects the point in the cycle where the output transitions from one to the other. (In the [mathematically degenerate] case of Pulse, the two "waveforms" are DC high and DC 0.)

But, I was surprised at how glitchy they look close up, for example with Triangle selected and SHAPE MOD at 100%, the waveform looked like a triangle, but at its negative peak, there was a sharp negative-going transient spike.  I wonder if some of that "crackling of fire" is happening at the transition points.

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2019, 07:52:34 PM »
Here's a video with another look at the spectral graph, set to FFT Bins rather than Line mode, and changed from Log to Linear scaling...  just a different spectral view of same effect from first video.  (Watch that video first for context)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbHKgr5LbsI
Interesting. Did you compare the Rev 2's oscillators to other DCOs to see if they have similar behavior?

I'll have to try this trick--maybe substitute the CV in as the modulation source because I use the gated sequencer a LOT!

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2019, 08:32:29 PM »
Interesting. Did you compare the Rev 2's oscillators to other DCOs to see if they have similar behavior?

I'll have to try this trick--maybe substitute the CV in as the modulation source because I use the gated sequencer a LOT!

Yes, I also compared two other DCO synths - The DSI Poly Evolver and the Novation Bass Station 2 - They both exhibit the exact same behavior as the Rev2 in regards to have ultra stable harmonics with no movement / no harmonic jitter.   I think its just the general nature of DCOs... they have great tuning performance!  (just maybe a bit too great if you want that VCO sound)

In the third video I posted, I added another VCO to the test as well (the IK Uno) - comparing three VCOs with the Rev2 DCO.   I probably should have included the other DCO synths in that video too for scientific/documentation purposes.   

There are probably some outliers with both DCO and VCO synths... and I suspect some old VCO synths may exhibit even more pronounced jitter (or at different rates).   If I had a MemoryMoog, Jupiter or OB I would test em... who wants to send me their Jupiter 8? ;)   
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 08:35:07 PM by creativespiral »

Sequential Pro 3 and Rev 2, Deepmind, PolyBrute - Sound Sets, Patch Banks - Available on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/sounddesign/

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2019, 08:40:17 PM »
I realized that the root cause of the unpleasant character was not only the filter but also the oscillators.  I listened very closely with headphones on to an INIT program, and heard artifacts. They're a bit like the crackling of fire, and it may be due to distortion in the signal.
I'm sure many others have already done this, but I' still new to this synth and wanted to see (not just hear) how SHAPE MOD affects each of the oscillator waveforms.  (Pulse being the only one that's completely obvious.)  So I recorded some sweeps of the SHAPE MOD for each waveform and zoomed in on the waveforms in my DAW.  It seems the general case is that there are two waveforms generated and SHAPE MOD selects the point in the cycle where the output transitions from one to the other. (In the [mathematically degenerate] case of Pulse, the two "waveforms" are DC high and DC 0.)

But, I was surprised at how glitchy they look close up, for example with Triangle selected and SHAPE MOD at 100%, the waveform looked like a triangle, but at its negative peak, there was a sharp negative-going transient spike.  I wonder if some of that "crackling of fire" is happening at the transition points.

The INIT saw has the crackling sound, but once you move the shape it's less crackly, a bit warmer, if still somewhat sterile.  It's the motion that sounds warmest.

Note that even with the OSC volume lowered, the crackling is still there, so it seems less likely from distortion and more likely the transient spikes you mention.

Of course they're most noticeable on sounds with the filter more open.
Moog One <> Prophet Rev2 16V <>  Andromeda <> Kronos 61 <> Nord Stage 2 HA76 <> Integra 7 <> Minilogue XD module <> Blofeld desktop <> Behringer Model D <> Minitaur <> Slim Phatty <> Matrix 1000 <> Micron <> Privia PX-5S <>  MODX7 <> TG77 <> ASM Hydrasynth <> Perform VE <> FCB1010

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2019, 08:59:29 PM »
@creativespiral-  very interesting what you have created.  Have you tried putting into practice creating patches on the Rev 2 with this modulation?  It seems that a simple string patch could demonstrate what you are doing.  It would be interesting to A-B a patch - with and without the modulation. 
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Cubase DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2019, 09:24:00 PM »
@creativespiral-  very interesting what you have created.  Have you tried putting into practice creating patches on the Rev 2 with this modulation?  It seems that a simple string patch could demonstrate what you are doing.  It would be interesting to A-B a patch - with and without the modulation.

Yes, I will be coming out with some more information in a few days and some example patches too.  I actually made another discovery while doing research on this, that I'm still exploring.   It's more significant than the harmonic jitter modulation...  I'm writing up details on it and working through my custom patches right now...  It sounds amazing to my ears!!   I think you all are gonna like it!   It's something that will improve VCO synth emulation, as well as modeling of other analog/acoustic instrument sounds... especially with strings, pads and other long decay instruments.   Works great on the Rev2, and will work on many other synthesizers as well.  And now I'll leave you hanging ;)  sorry... hopefully it doesn't disappoint :o
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 09:36:05 PM by creativespiral »

Sequential Pro 3 and Rev 2, Deepmind, PolyBrute - Sound Sets, Patch Banks - Available on Sellfy: https://sellfy.com/sounddesign/

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2019, 01:52:51 PM »
@creativespiral-  very interesting what you have created.  Have you tried putting into practice creating patches on the Rev 2 with this modulation?  It seems that a simple string patch could demonstrate what you are doing.  It would be interesting to A-B a patch - with and without the modulation.

Yes, I will be coming out with some more information in a few days and some example patches too.  I actually made another discovery while doing research on this, that I'm still exploring.   It's more significant than the harmonic jitter modulation...  I'm writing up details on it and working through my custom patches right now...  It sounds amazing to my ears!!   I think you all are gonna like it!   It's something that will improve VCO synth emulation, as well as modeling of other analog/acoustic instrument sounds... especially with strings, pads and other long decay instruments.   Works great on the Rev2, and will work on many other synthesizers as well.  And now I'll leave you hanging ;)  sorry... hopefully it doesn't disappoint :o

You're digging deeper and deeper! It feels like your about to uncover some deep digitally controlled conspiracy and Dave himself is going to show up at your door to shut this operation down. :-X

 ;D

maxter

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Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2019, 02:36:42 PM »
I hope Dave hasn't got to you already! :o  Btw, consider changing nick to VCO-synth killer, if the next trick up your sleeve is even bigger than the last! I'm intrigued and fascinated by your findings enough already, but sure hope to get my mind blown some more...
The Way the Truth and the Life

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2021, 02:59:46 AM »
Coming back to the original question :)

For brass sounds I often modulate "Fine Tune" of one OSC with the filter envelope.
Any idea how to do this without having Fine Tune destination?

(A work around would be to use triangle LFO with similar time, but this is not the same actually)

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2021, 03:11:08 AM »
Coming back to the original question :)

For brass sounds I often modulate "Fine Tune" of one OSC with the filter envelope.
Any idea how to do this without having Fine Tune destination? Modulating OSC FREQ is just too much.

(A work around would be to use triangle LFO with similar time, but this is not the same actually)

Re: Question about Fine Tune Modulation, DCOs
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2021, 12:14:45 AM »
First the obvious:
get an old VCO synth?
I had a Roland SH-5, nothing beats it’s oscillators’ rawness IMO (it was amazing, the tune knob had sort of a delayed/smoothed reaction. You could hear the oscillators slowly react).

Another one,
what about the ring modulator effect? If it’s tuned a little bit off and mixed in in very small amounts it should introduce some kind of beating to the patch?

Another one (mostly from working with Elektron machines)
is mixing two LFOs (in reverse) against each other... Sort of smoothing the “depth” or slowing the LFO curve a lot (which, when de-synced makes the value of, say ‘1’ become lower, i.e. 0.8 for example, depending on the “desynchronization”).

*edit* Ah! Also forgot to mention:
I haven’t calibrated my Prophet for ages now and I kind of like it (it’s a bit off here and there).