The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

Behringer Prophet 5?

Behringer Prophet 5?
« on: February 17, 2019, 03:29:02 PM »
It's not clear, but this is typically how Behringer makes an announcement.  Egads, will there be a Behringer Prophet 5?  It was only a matter of time before they turned to the cornerstone of the great and venerable Dave Smith heritage.  Considering the legal issues that went between Behringer and Dave Smith Instruments, and that directly concerned this forum, it certainly reveals more of the Behringer character many of us have come to loathe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDZCgm2IwjY
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 04:53:57 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2019, 04:40:56 PM »
They recently acquired an auctioned collection of Tears for Fears gear that sat in storage for ages. Among the keyboard instruments were this Prophet-5, an Emulator II, and a Yamaha DX1. I'm not sure whether this is indicative of any planned reverse engineering. Particularly with regard to the DX1 I'm doubtful, since the appeal of that instrument lies in its luxurious interface, wooden keys and all that, just like with the CS-80 Ė very unlikely to reappear in that shape and form on today's market, no matter who would manufacture it. They did, however, announce their take on the Pro-One in the desktop module format.

Edit: Plus, I also believe the name "Prophet" is protected as a trademark.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 04:45:03 PM by Paul Dither »

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2019, 04:56:52 PM »
What, then, would be the purpose of the video?  Don't you find it overly suggestive, in typical Behringer fashion?  Just watch the comments under the video and see the impression it makes on synthesists.  As for the name, that could be slightly altered to avoid legal problems.

This is just how Behringer begins to announce a new product and gets the Internet a-buzzing about it.  I would place the Prophet 5 (or the Brophet 5, as people are already calling it) in the Behringer "future possibilities" category.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 05:05:46 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2019, 05:11:38 PM »
For now, the purpose of the videos is to show the restauration of the acquired instruments with some sort of teaser quality. All of the above mentioned instruments are somewhat desired nostalgia objects that some people would like to see on the market again. Whether that'll eventually happen, no-one knows. Of course such videos are perfect occasions for playing with customer desires. AFAIK, the OB-Xa is currently at the top of the list. Since that was a synth based on the more stable Curtis chips and CEM3340 VCO chips are already used in other products, some crucial parts are already around. Might just be a case of putting two and two together.

megamarkd

  • ***
  • 286
  • One day I will fund a vuvuzela marching band.
Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2019, 05:50:09 PM »
I some forum somewhere brought my attention to the news that Behringer had bought a good number of Tears For Fears' touring gear at auction end of last year, here's a link to the article that was cited: http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2018/12/20/are-these-the-synths-that-behringer-will-clone-next/

They recently acquired an auctioned collection of Tears for Fears gear that sat in storage for ages. Among the keyboard instruments were this Prophet-5, an Emulator II, and a Yamaha DX1. I'm not sure whether this is indicative of any planned reverse engineering. Particularly with regard to the DX1 I'm doubtful, since the appeal of that instrument lies in its luxurious interface, wooden keys and all that, just like with the CS-80 – very unlikely to reappear in that shape and form on today's market, no matter who would manufacture it. They did, however, announce their take on the Pro-One in the desktop module format.

Edit: Plus, I also believe the name "Prophet" is protected as a trademark.

I've seen the Pro One in a list of "coming soon" clones also.  I'm not really liking the idea that they might be doing clone of all those synths.  When I saw the had purchased a Prophet 5, my heart sunk.  It reminds me of the "Business is business" story of MJ and Paul McCartney, but somehow worse.  I feel they are trading on other people's hard work and reputations.
I don't know if Waldorf own any copyrights surrounding the PPG Wave 2 but that doesn't mean Behringer can't release something with it's styling and the same wavetables (I'm pretty sure those waves are 'owned' by anyone).  The EMU operating system is one of the things that made those samplers so amazing and considering that sampling quality that of the Ultra family was surpassed a long long time ago, it would be a case of again just copying the instrument styling and then giving it the multisampling features of the original.

It seems they might be actually doing the DX1 first, here's a video that was posted to another forum: https://www.youtube.com/embed/9abemf3sIc4

The front-face programming functions of the DX1 are also something that made the DX1 a synth that is worth owning beside the wonderful case and increased polyphony.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 05:53:26 PM by megamarkd »

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 10:42:07 AM »
It seems they might be actually doing the DX1 first, here's a video that was posted to another forum: https://www.youtube.com/embed/9abemf3sIc4

The front-face programming functions of the DX1 are also something that made the DX1 a synth that is worth owning beside the wonderful case and increased polyphony.

The DX1 was basically two DX7s, just like the DX5 (including twice the voice count and splits and stacks as bi-timbral options), but with a more appealing UI and wooden keys that featured polyphonic aftertouch. While the internal technology could certainly be reproduced on a dead cheap level, the build cost of the chassis would amount to too much to keep this product attractive for any realistic market. I assume the restauration is only done for the private collection. Plus, you can still get plenty of original DX7s for up to $300. They're not a rarity. The last time, DX7s for $300 would have been a sensation was in the 1980s.

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 11:23:17 AM »
Uli has said that his synthesizer projects are a passion project for him, basically issuing all the keyboards he lusted after as a young player but couldn't afford. So I suspect this restoration project is partially to get models for some things he wants to reintroduce and partially just for nostalgia.

While I abhor his litigiousness, his reissues seem fairly harmless. I'm sure if Sequential wanted to reissue a Pro One, they could do it and it would do fairly well among all those who want the genuine name and among all those who hate Behringer. But I doubt it would make a lot of money, and everyone price sensitive would go for the Behringer remake instead.

However, Dave and company are clearly not interested in retreading old ground very often, so I think they're probably just as happy leaving the nostalgia market to others and focus more on innovation and quality. Ironically, I think the announcement and subsequent long development time of the UB-Xa has probably spurred a number of sales of the OB-6 just because peoples' appetites have been whetted, and they've gotten tired of waiting.
Prophet 12, Modal 002, MFB Dominion 1, Behringer DeepMind 12D, Korg Polysix & EX-8000, Roland JX-8P, Ensoniq SQ-80, Kawai K3m and now an OB-6!

Shaw

  • ***
  • 1101
Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2019, 11:53:09 AM »
However, Dave and company are clearly not interested in retreading old ground very often, so I think they're probably just as happy leaving the nostalgia market to others and focus more on innovation and quality. Ironically, I think the announcement and subsequent long development time of the UB-Xa has probably spurred a number of sales of the OB-6 just because peoples' appetites have been whetted, and they've gotten tired of waiting.
Agreed.  I think, for example, the Prophet 6 is a better synth than the Prophet 5 was -- no, I'm not knocking the Prophet 5, and yes, I know someone will get irate over that comment.  But why wouldn't it be a better synth?  It has the benefit of almost 40 years of technological advancement and the accumulated experience of the designer.  If it weren't a better synth, that would be a very poor selection on DSI / Sequential.


Same goes for the OB-6 vs. OB-XA (ever see someone try to tune one of those beasts?!?!?)


Keep going Dave. Ignore Behringer altogether -- unless they violate a patent, trademark or copyright you hold.
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rockīn roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

LoboLives

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2019, 11:57:53 AM »
However, Dave and company are clearly not interested in retreading old ground very often, so I think they're probably just as happy leaving the nostalgia market to others and focus more on innovation and quality. Ironically, I think the announcement and subsequent long development time of the UB-Xa has probably spurred a number of sales of the OB-6 just because peoples' appetites have been whetted, and they've gotten tired of waiting.
Agreed.  I think, for example, the Prophet 6 is a better synth than the Prophet 5 was -- no, I'm not knocking the Prophet 5, and yes, I know someone will get irate over that comment.  But why wouldn't it be a better synth?  It has the benefit of almost 40 years of technological advancement and the accumulated experience of the designer.  If it weren't a better synth, that would be a very poor selection on DSI / Sequential.


Same goes for the OB-6 vs. OB-XA (ever see someone try to tune one of those beasts?!?!?)


Keep going Dave. Ignore Behringer altogether -- unless they violate a patent, trademark or copyright you hold.

I agree 100%. The Prophet 5 is less powerful and missing a lot of features the Prophet 6 has. In fact I would say the only thing it has over the P6 is the octave range but I still wouldnít get a Prophet 5 just for that reason.

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2019, 02:15:00 PM »
However, Dave and company are clearly not interested in retreading old ground very often, so I think they're probably just as happy leaving the nostalgia market to others and focus more on innovation and quality. Ironically, I think the announcement and subsequent long development time of the UB-Xa has probably spurred a number of sales of the OB-6 just because peoples' appetites have been whetted, and they've gotten tired of waiting.
Agreed.  I think, for example, the Prophet 6 is a better synth than the Prophet 5 was -- no, I'm not knocking the Prophet 5, and yes, I know someone will get irate over that comment.  But why wouldn't it be a better synth?  It has the benefit of almost 40 years of technological advancement and the accumulated experience of the designer.  If it weren't a better synth, that would be a very poor selection on DSI / Sequential.


Same goes for the OB-6 vs. OB-XA (ever see someone try to tune one of those beasts?!?!?)


Keep going Dave. Ignore Behringer altogether -- unless they violate a patent, trademark or copyright you hold.

I agree 100%. The Prophet 5 is less powerful and missing a lot of features the Prophet 6 has. In fact I would say the only thing it has over the P6 is the octave range but I still wouldnít get a Prophet 5 just for that reason.

That and the fact the P5 could have multiple waveforms active on a single oscillator.

The 4-octave keybed is one thing that is holding me back (despite the fact the P6 is heavily discounted at one seller in my region at the moment).

LoboLives

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2019, 02:57:35 PM »
However, Dave and company are clearly not interested in retreading old ground very often, so I think they're probably just as happy leaving the nostalgia market to others and focus more on innovation and quality. Ironically, I think the announcement and subsequent long development time of the UB-Xa has probably spurred a number of sales of the OB-6 just because peoples' appetites have been whetted, and they've gotten tired of waiting.
Agreed.  I think, for example, the Prophet 6 is a better synth than the Prophet 5 was -- no, I'm not knocking the Prophet 5, and yes, I know someone will get irate over that comment.  But why wouldn't it be a better synth?  It has the benefit of almost 40 years of technological advancement and the accumulated experience of the designer.  If it weren't a better synth, that would be a very poor selection on DSI / Sequential.


Same goes for the OB-6 vs. OB-XA (ever see someone try to tune one of those beasts?!?!?)


Keep going Dave. Ignore Behringer altogether -- unless they violate a patent, trademark or copyright you hold.

I agree 100%. The Prophet 5 is less powerful and missing a lot of features the Prophet 6 has. In fact I would say the only thing it has over the P6 is the octave range but I still wouldnít get a Prophet 5 just for that reason.

That and the fact the P5 could have multiple waveforms active on a single oscillator.

The 4-octave keybed is one thing that is holding me back (despite the fact the P6 is heavily discounted at one seller in my region at the moment).

Still the features on the P6 far outweigh the Prophet 5. I actually like the idea of continuously variable Wave knob on the P6. Im not sure if you could modulate the shape of the oscillators on the P5 but you can with the P6.

Could always go for a module if you want more octaves. It doesnít bother me personally. I actually think 5 octaves are only good if you can do splits and layers on a synth. Thatís just me though. The P6 is still my favorite synth.

Razmo

  • ***
  • 2168
  • I am shadow...
    • Kaleidoscopic Artworks
Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2019, 04:13:32 PM »
I honestly do not see the problem... many of the patents have run out, and A LOT of other companies try to replicate older synths (funny enough, no one seems to wrinkle their noses at them!? why!?") ...

Second, many of these synths have been moaned about to the original producing companies FOR YEARS ON END... and none of the companies gave a shit about the people who wanted them... Behringer is giving the users what they want... if that is a problem for Roland, Sequential, Korg, Oberheim whatever, then they COULD HAVE LISTENED!

I give nothing for said original companies arrogance in this regard... they've had the opportunities to listen... but did not... that Behringer may be cloning curcuits to make them is something A LOT of other companies have done, if not whole, then partially... how many replicas are out there of the MOOG ladder filter, not from Behringer?

No... the companies a crying because Behringer sell their stuff so cheap they have to compete... this is the so called "free market mechanism" that all the neo-liberalists are constantly whining about as "GOD!" ... except when it means they they themselves are the hunted, and not the hunter...

So no... I have no qualms with Behringer in any way... and I may buy their DeepMind someday actually...
If you need me, follow the shadows...

LoboLives

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2019, 08:13:23 PM »
I honestly do not see the problem... many of the patents have run out, and A LOT of other companies try to replicate older synths (funny enough, no one seems to wrinkle their noses at them!? why!?") ...

Second, many of these synths have been moaned about to the original producing companies FOR YEARS ON END... and none of the companies gave a shit about the people who wanted them... Behringer is giving the users what they want... if that is a problem for Roland, Sequential, Korg, Oberheim whatever, then they COULD HAVE LISTENED!

I give nothing for said original companies arrogance in this regard... they've had the opportunities to listen... but did not... that Behringer may be cloning curcuits to make them is something A LOT of other companies have done, if not whole, then partially... how many replicas are out there of the MOOG ladder filter, not from Behringer?

No... the companies a crying because Behringer sell their stuff so cheap they have to compete... this is the so called "free market mechanism" that all the neo-liberalists are constantly whining about as "GOD!" ... except when it means they they themselves are the hunted, and not the hunter...

So no... I have no qualms with Behringer in any way... and I may buy their DeepMind someday actually...

I donít care about the clone aspect of Behringer, I just canít support a company who sue people on forums simply because they got their feelings hurt. I couldnít care less if they come out with a Prophet 10 clone, CS80 clone and Synclavier clone, I just canít support that type of behavior.

Razmo

  • ***
  • 2168
  • I am shadow...
    • Kaleidoscopic Artworks
Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2019, 09:04:21 PM »
I honestly do not see the problem... many of the patents have run out, and A LOT of other companies try to replicate older synths (funny enough, no one seems to wrinkle their noses at them!? why!?") ...

Second, many of these synths have been moaned about to the original producing companies FOR YEARS ON END... and none of the companies gave a shit about the people who wanted them... Behringer is giving the users what they want... if that is a problem for Roland, Sequential, Korg, Oberheim whatever, then they COULD HAVE LISTENED!

I give nothing for said original companies arrogance in this regard... they've had the opportunities to listen... but did not... that Behringer may be cloning curcuits to make them is something A LOT of other companies have done, if not whole, then partially... how many replicas are out there of the MOOG ladder filter, not from Behringer?

No... the companies a crying because Behringer sell their stuff so cheap they have to compete... this is the so called "free market mechanism" that all the neo-liberalists are constantly whining about as "GOD!" ... except when it means they they themselves are the hunted, and not the hunter...

So no... I have no qualms with Behringer in any way... and I may buy their DeepMind someday actually...

I donít care about the clone aspect of Behringer, I just canít support a company who sue people on forums simply because they got their feelings hurt. I couldnít care less if they come out with a Prophet 10 clone, CS80 clone and Synclavier clone, I just canít support that type of behavior.

On that I agree though... that episode was a bit stupid on Behringer's behalf, but it still has no impact on my view on purchasing their products though... besides, Behringer is being constantly bashed by both other companies and customers because they feel their feelings has been hurt by Behringer's actions, so maybe it all evens out in the end anyway.
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2019, 10:26:27 PM »
So no... I have no qualms with Behringer in any way... and I may buy their DeepMind someday actually...

I agree--they're filling a niche in the market only maybe Roland or Korg could, and Korg has done it some but not to the price point Behringer has.

I own the DeepMind, the Neutron, and the Model D. I bought the Model D because I just couldn't justify spending $3.5K on a monophonic synth without patch memory. I still ended up wanting a Minimoog with patch memory, so I got an SE-1. If Moog would have made one, even at $3K, I probably would have bought it. Their more modern designs just didn't do it for me.

Back to topic, Behringer have done a great job on their less copycat synths, and the Neutron has been some of the most fun I've had just exploring. The Model D scratched a similar itch in "I've always wanted this but couldn't justify the cost." Now that I have an OB-6, I doubt I'll get the UB-Xa, and none of the other clones have really called to me. Maybe if they do an affordable Jupiter 8, but I hope they do it in a module.
Prophet 12, Modal 002, MFB Dominion 1, Behringer DeepMind 12D, Korg Polysix & EX-8000, Roland JX-8P, Ensoniq SQ-80, Kawai K3m and now an OB-6!

LoboLives


Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2019, 08:12:51 AM »
However, Dave and company are clearly not interested in retreading old ground very often, so I think they're probably just as happy leaving the nostalgia market to others and focus more on innovation and quality. Ironically, I think the announcement and subsequent long development time of the UB-Xa has probably spurred a number of sales of the OB-6 just because peoples' appetites have been whetted, and they've gotten tired of waiting.
Agreed.  I think, for example, the Prophet 6 is a better synth than the Prophet 5 was -- no, I'm not knocking the Prophet 5, and yes, I know someone will get irate over that comment.  But why wouldn't it be a better synth?  It has the benefit of almost 40 years of technological advancement and the accumulated experience of the designer.  If it weren't a better synth, that would be a very poor selection on DSI / Sequential.


Same goes for the OB-6 vs. OB-XA (ever see someone try to tune one of those beasts?!?!?)


Keep going Dave. Ignore Behringer altogether -- unless they violate a patent, trademark or copyright you hold.

I agree 100%. The Prophet 5 is less powerful and missing a lot of features the Prophet 6 has. In fact I would say the only thing it has over the P6 is the octave range but I still wouldnít get a Prophet 5 just for that reason.

That and the fact the P5 could have multiple waveforms active on a single oscillator.

The 4-octave keybed is one thing that is holding me back (despite the fact the P6 is heavily discounted at one seller in my region at the moment).

Still the features on the P6 far outweigh the Prophet 5. I actually like the idea of continuously variable Wave knob on the P6. Im not sure if you could modulate the shape of the oscillators on the P5 but you can with the P6.

Could always go for a module if you want more octaves. It doesnít bother me personally. I actually think 5 octaves are only good if you can do splits and layers on a synth. Thatís just me though. The P6 is still my favorite synth.

Ironically, if splits were possible on the P6 then the shorter keyboard would be fine as Iíd be able to pitch each split up or down as necessary. Iíve been experimenting using only 4 octaves on my Nord Piano 2 and am finding that if I have it pitched high enough to be able to play standard RH voicings I regularly use (which go up to the G# above the one above middle C) then I run out of bass notes in the more satisfying range. I wish the Nord had wheels and aftertouch as Iíd simply buy a module. (Perhaps it may be time to get the Stage 3 version or the Yamaha CP-88.)

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 07:47:16 AM »
So no... I have no qualms with Behringer in any way... and I may buy their DeepMind someday actually...

I just did!Ėat $500 USD, there's very little to complain about within reason; the built-in effects are decent and the unit is largely "complete". There are still some niggles as far as the interface is concerned (i.e., deep editing requires some scrolling to select the parameter in question), but the value is good.

And I also bought the Neutron (dual V3340 VCOs); both are inspired-by-but-original designs, so to speak, and fit into the overall scheme reasonably well.

I am waiting to see what Sequential offers up in terms of a deeper analogue design (matrix mod, multiple LFOs, VCOs, etc.) before I pull the trigger on a Prophet 6, though I don't expect Behringer to change my mind in any way, shape or form.
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

megamarkd

  • ***
  • 286
  • One day I will fund a vuvuzela marching band.
Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2019, 11:41:04 PM »
So no... I have no qualms with Behringer in any way... and I may buy their DeepMind someday actually...

I just did!Ėat $500 USD, there's very little to complain about within reason; the built-in effects are decent and the unit is largely "complete". There are still some niggles as far as the interface is concerned (i.e., deep editing requires some scrolling to select the parameter in question), but the value is good.

Was that the 6 or the 12?  That is almost half what the 12 runs at here.

Re: Behringer Prophet 5?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2019, 03:44:10 PM »
Was that the 6 or the 12?  That is almost half what the 12 runs at here.

12 keyboard!
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000