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Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds

Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« on: February 15, 2019, 03:31:33 PM »
Hi all, I recently purchased used Tempest and its behaving weird - at fixed velocity each hit sounds very different - noticeable on kick drum sounds, some sounds have anoying glitchy click, others sound muted. Watch the video - its a kick made of self-ocs filter, no changing or random parameters in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a58Yci1t0U4

Normal or not?

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2019, 03:43:50 PM »
Definitely read this thread:
https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,78.0.html
Thereís a section where i explain all things inconsistency..

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2019, 05:19:05 AM »
Thanks.. thou I just wonder why is this inconsistent even when I assign the sound to only 1 voice...it seems to make no difference.  It sounds like each hit the envelopes have different speed.... I hear that stutter on the attack, but it varies. Even with the remedies from the tips and tricks it's still there. Sounds very bad, how is this advertised as a drum machine I don't know.

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2019, 05:31:38 AM »
Have you read how Tempestís voices behave when you hook in a cable?You have to read the entire thread...Also you should check my patches cause i have mastered Tís behaviors..You can learn a lot and built on top of them!
https://yorgosarabatzis.wixsite.com/yorgosarabatzis/shop

Tempest is even difficult for the experienced sound designer cause every tiny adjustment counts..Iíll keep saying this: ďItís a matter of sweet spot...Ē If you find it, keep it and thereís nothing like it out there..It bangs hard!
Thanks.. thou I just wonder why is this inconsistent even when I assign the sound to only 1 voice...it seems to make no difference.  It sounds like each hit the envelopes have different speed.... I hear that stutter on the attack, but it varies. Even with the remedies from the tips and tricks it's still there. Sounds very bad, how is this advertised as a drum machine I don't know.

Razmo

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Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2019, 05:51:55 AM »
One thing I noticed as well, besides the necessity to always use the same voice is that when you design, for example, a kick drum, then when you play it by hitting the pads live, you get inconsistency ... but as soon as you program it into the sequencer, then the inconsistency disappear...

I believe that much of the inconsistence is because of settling times of the analog CVs in the Curtis chips... if you use voice 1 for example, to throw in a steady kick drum beat, and also use that voice to do an off-beat bass sound, then every time the TEMPESt needs to change that voice's setting from one to the other sound (kick and bass), it will have to reset all the parameters, and CVs... this require settling times... the TEMPEST has no way of knowing when you will hit a pad, so the CV lines could be anywhere in different states when they are then suddenly changed to something new... that gives inconsistency when you're hitting pads live... but when you're running the sequencer, the TEMPEST has the ability to "see into the future", and make sure to prepare for these changes in advance of them really happening, which is probably why a running sequence is much less inconsistent.

This is just the limitations of the analog oscillators in TEMPEST... nothing to be done about it, except use the sequencer, and accept the inconsistency when hitting the pads live.

A lot of inconsistency when using the oscillators as sound soures can be removed by using the same voice, and resetting the waveforms (waveform retrigger) and also maybe assigning a single voice to that sound all on it's own... you may get consistency even if you interleave say; a bas in between a kick drum, but the kick transient may sound different if the bass was not there in between at all, simply because resetting the CV lines from bass to kick to bass etc. will give different results in the transients, that if it only had to switch from kick to kick to kick...

To master the TEMPEST regarding consistency require that you get to know your TEMPEST to the maximum... you really need to go thru that "frustration phase" that we all have gone thru... keep at it... don't let it go... you might end up with something you actually like despite all of its warts ;)
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Razmo

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Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2019, 05:57:29 AM »
What is really needed to achieve perfect consistency in the transients is that Sequential does a TEMPEST V2 that has digital oscillators instead of analog ones, but with analog filters and VCAs... if that was the case, you'd not have those inconsistencies since digital oscillators would not need any of that settling times... if it had to be done with analog, they would at least have to dump that Curtis chip for it, and probably design the voices with discrete components.
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2019, 02:49:15 PM »
In my experience using a self-oscillating filter for kicks is inconsistent no matter what you do.

My (possibly wrong) explanation for this is that, being totally analog, there is no 'wave reset' on the sine wave generated by the self-oscillation. Whatever the explanation though, it never works for me. Use the sine sample instead or the analog oscs (a filtered triangle will get you as close as dammit to a sine wave if that's what you want).

I have no problem getting consistent kicks if I...

- Avoid FM and self-oscillation on the filter
- Assign to a single voice (and usually it's the only thing I have assigned to that voice)
- Turn 'wave reset' on if using the analog oscs.
- Avoid excessive use of noise or modulation by random parameters in the transient phase.

 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 02:56:13 PM by muleskinner »
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Razmo

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Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2019, 02:58:09 PM »
In my experience using a self-oscillating filter for kicks is inconsistent no matter what you do.

My (possibly wrong) explanation for this is that, being totally analog, there is no 'wave reset' on the sine wave generated by the self-oscillation. Whatever the explanation though, it never works for me. Use the sine sample instead or the analog oscs (a filtered triangle will get you as close as dammit to a sine wave if that's what you want).

I have no problem getting consistent kicks if I...

- Avoid FM and self-oscillation on the filter
- Assign to a single voice (and usually it's the only thing I have assigned to that voice)
- Turn 'wave reset' on if using the analog oscs.
- Avoid excessive use of noise or modulation by random parameters in the transient phase.

I got consistent kicks easily with the resonating filter... just need to make sure it always use the same voice.
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2019, 05:52:02 PM »
Yep that ^ as i explain in my tutorial..

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 06:44:00 AM »
Another quirk I discovered - I thought that the level knob changes the volume of the sound...how wrong I was...It seems it changes only the osc levels and in some sounds it makes the sound change completely when you turn the knob.

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 07:28:22 AM »
Thatís why i always set the volume and velocity at max values so there wonít be any surprises..If you design your sounds based on that then with a little bit of tweaking you can work your velocity levels to get them right afterwards..Hmm maybe i should update my inconsistency post with this also..
Tempest has always been a love/hate relationship machine for many of the users out there and those little quirks are the perfect example  :P

Another quirk I discovered - I thought that the level knob changes the volume of the sound...how wrong I was...It seems it changes only the osc levels and in some sounds it makes the sound change completely when you turn the knob.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 07:30:07 AM by Yorgos Arabatzis »

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2019, 04:37:54 AM »
I got consistent kicks easily with the resonating filter... just need to make sure it always use the same voice.

OK - I just did a quick test on this to see if I was imagining things and I'm not.

Nothing on but self-oscillating filter. Amp attack zero. Assigned to a voice. Nothing else going on.

Record this into a DAW and you can clearly see the attack is different each time, the wave doesn't reset, sometimes it will be completely out of phase! Of course this makes sense when you think about it, the filter is continually resonating (presumably) and it's just the VCA that's opening and closing. Here's a sample of two consecutive sounds...



If you were layering kicks like this (with another oscillator or a sample) you'd get random phase cancellation!

So - while I don't doubt it's possible to get kicks that sound consistent using the filter you are not necessarily making life easy for yourself and probably setting yourself up for some head-scratching moments, especially if you a) aren't aware of the above and b) combine it with other sound sources.

The resonating filter as a sound source is way off being consistent, even if it might sound that way under certain conditions.
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 11:21:19 AM »
Hi,

First post on the forum. Fairly new Tempest owner.

Did anyone explore a new technique to avoid/eliminate the inconsistent behavior of the self resonating filter? There are times I get the transient close to stable, but not stable enough to produce a consistent kick.

Next to the tips mentioned in this thread, are there ways to get the signal any more stable?

I got consistent kicks easily with the resonating filter... just need to make sure it always use the same voice.

OK - I just did a quick test on this to see if I was imagining things and I'm not.

Nothing on but self-oscillating filter. Amp attack zero. Assigned to a voice. Nothing else going on.

Record this into a DAW and you can clearly see the attack is different each time, the wave doesn't reset, sometimes it will be completely out of phase! Of course this makes sense when you think about it, the filter is continually resonating (presumably) and it's just the VCA that's opening and closing. Here's a sample of two consecutive sounds...



If you were layering kicks like this (with another oscillator or a sample) you'd get random phase cancellation!

So - while I don't doubt it's possible to get kicks that sound consistent using the filter you are not necessarily making life easy for yourself and probably setting yourself up for some head-scratching moments, especially if you a) aren't aware of the above and b) combine it with other sound sources.

The resonating filter as a sound source is way off being consistent, even if it might sound that way under certain conditions.

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2019, 12:08:02 PM »
If youíre using the self oscillating filter make sure you have that sound assigned to a specific voice and after that if you want to use pitch/filter envelopes to experiment with delay parameters in them as i mentioning in my tips..Also donít forget that high passing plays itís role too..Itís really a matter of sweet spot as i always say..

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2019, 04:40:53 PM »
Sounds very bad, how is this advertised as a drum machine I don't know.

LOL... This again.

First of all, there are plenty of ways to minimize these inconsistencies, if you take the time to learn and understand the box and the many intricacies of analog sound design, which is a particularly involved process when it comes to building percussion sounds.  Second of all, countless world-class artists, from NIN to Radiohead to Chvrches, have used the Tempest to build some of the most iconic beats in modern music history, despite its quirks.  Thirdly, some of the most sought-after synths and drum machines in the world are notorious for never making the same sound exactly the same way twice: i.e. the 808 comes to mind.  And finally, that's the charm of analog synthesis and why it sounds so alive.  Love it or hate it, but to question how the Tempest could be considered a drum machine, well... That's just funny.

At any rate, it sounds like a filter kick you're working with there, so make sure the resonance is turned all the way up.  Then check every modulation slot, because it looks like a fairly consistent inconsistency to me (wink).  And if all else fails, let the machine warm up for an hour before performing all the calibration routines, cables unplugged, etc.  Do this more than once if need be.

Otherwise, there are countless other ways to design solid, more predictable kicks, so if you don't like the results you're getting, simply don't use the filter as your oscillator.  And if it's someone else's sounds you're using, well then, please refer to my first point above...

Cheers!

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2019, 11:31:23 AM »
Thanks. Your tip helped me. If you have more tips regarding stabilizing the self resonating filter, I'll be more than happy to hear them.


If youíre using the self oscillating filter make sure you have that sound assigned to a specific voice and after that if you want to use pitch/filter envelopes to experiment with delay parameters in them as i mentioning in my tips..Also donít forget that high passing plays itís role too..Itís really a matter of sweet spot as i always say..

Re: Is my tempest broken? Glitchy sounds
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2019, 06:36:09 AM »
 ;)
Make sure you read these like a gospel:

https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,78.0.html

https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html

Thanks. Your tip helped me. If you have more tips regarding stabilizing the self resonating filter, I'll be more than happy to hear them.