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Delayed Vibrato

Delayed Vibrato
« on: January 30, 2019, 06:22:18 PM »
Hi all, one effect that I often try to include in lead sounds is a delayed vibrato. (I also own a nord lead a1, on which this is a default effect, I would basically like to copy that effect) For some or another reason I do not really manage to nail this seemingly simple effect on my rev2.
What I tried:
- have a LFO on both (or one of both) oscillators, frequency about 60, amount at zero.
- let the envelope 3 control the amount of this LFO, with some delay and a not too quick attack.

It might be that I am just not getting the parameters right, or maybe there is a structurally different way of achieving the delayed vibrato. Can someone share their favorite settings to achieve such a vibrato?

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 06:40:13 PM »
Are you routing env 3 straight to the LFO depth? If so, perhaps try routing it to the mod slot which contains the LFO routing instead. I think that way the maximum LFO depth will be set by the LFOís Mod slot and the envelope will then be a proportion of this. Iím relatively new to the DSI mod matrix so perhaps someone more experienced might like to chime in.

Razmo

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Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 06:54:45 PM »
The problem is that the range of the LFO amount parameter is too large... The third envelope would have to make very little modulation to the LFO amount to get this working... Usually, the amount should be within 1-4 for a satisfactory vibrato, so what you can do is limit the envelopes modulation... That can be done as described with the mod matrix, but you can also try to lower the sustain level on envelope three to the 1-4 range and see if that helps tame it.

And now that we are at it, note that the LFO amount parameters range is actually four times lower than that of a modulation matrix amount... An amount of 1 in the matrix, correspond to 4 in the LFO amount parameter... Thus creating subtle vibrato is actually easier with the LFO amount rather than the mod matrix... On the other hand, the LFO amount is only unipolar... It only does positive modulation where the mod matrix can also reverse the modulation with negative modulation amounts.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 07:01:53 PM by Razmo »

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 07:40:07 PM »
DEar Quatschmacher, Razmo, thanks for your answers. First fo all, I understand that you both agree with the general of simply increaing the amount (with a constant freq). That being established, we are at the precise parameter values. here are two issues I want to get clear:
1) Razmo, you say, between 1-4. This is at the LFO-amount in the LFO section scale, right?
2) How is the actual amount defined? Is the following formal representation correct?
actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix

Now, how does the Env3 feed in here? Additive as in:
Additive: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix + Env3
or multiplicative as in either, when routed to LFO amount directly:
Multiplicative 1: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section * Env3 + 4 * amount_mod_matrix
or, when routed to LFO amount though mod matrix:
Multiplicative 2: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix * Env3



Razmo

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Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 03:58:51 AM »
DEar Quatschmacher, Razmo, thanks for your answers. First fo all, I understand that you both agree with the general of simply increaing the amount (with a constant freq). That being established, we are at the precise parameter values. here are two issues I want to get clear:
1) Razmo, you say, between 1-4. This is at the LFO-amount in the LFO section scale, right?
2) How is the actual amount defined? Is the following formal representation correct?
actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix

Now, how does the Env3 feed in here? Additive as in:
Additive: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix + Env3
or multiplicative as in either, when routed to LFO amount directly:
Multiplicative 1: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section * Env3 + 4 * amount_mod_matrix
or, when routed to LFO amount though mod matrix:
Multiplicative 2: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix * Env3

Yes... the parameter LFO Amount should be in the 1-4 range if you wanted a simple static vibrato... but if you want that to fade in, you would use the third envelope to control tha LFO Amount parameter... in that case you should set the LFO Amount to 0, then set the envelope 3 Destination to LFO Amount... this will get the routing right.

Next you dial in the delay time and attack time on envelope 3, just as you already did... but you should remember that envelope 3's sustain parameter now governs the max vibrato amount (sustain now becomes what the LFO Amount was with a static vibrato, as it controls this parameter)... and when you want a modulation in the 1-4 range, that is what you set in envelope 3's Sustain parameter... a value between 1-4.

That is basically all there is to it...

Alternatively, you could also set the envelope 3 Sustain parameter to the full amount of 127, and then instead lower envelope 3's Enevelope Amount parameter to the 1-4 amount... that would give the same result. This could give the another option to route Mod Wheel to envelope 3's envelope amount parameter, and control the amount of delayed vibrato from the mod wheel (in that case the envelope modulation amount parameter should also be set to 0, and the modwheel modulation amount would now be the one that should have that 1-4 range).

I hope I'm not sounding too confusing... you just have to remember, that modulations in REV2 are always ADDED to whatever you're modulating... this is why you need to have the parameters you are modulating have initial values of 0... if they are higher you would get static modulation instead, plus whatever is modulating them :)

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 09:56:58 AM »
DEar Quatschmacher, Razmo, thanks for your answers. First fo all, I understand that you both agree with the general of simply increaing the amount (with a constant freq). That being established, we are at the precise parameter values. here are two issues I want to get clear:
1) Razmo, you say, between 1-4. This is at the LFO-amount in the LFO section scale, right?
2) How is the actual amount defined? Is the following formal representation correct?
actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix

Now, how does the Env3 feed in here? Additive as in:
Additive: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix + Env3
or multiplicative as in either, when routed to LFO amount directly:
Multiplicative 1: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section * Env3 + 4 * amount_mod_matrix
or, when routed to LFO amount though mod matrix:
Multiplicative 2: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix * Env3

Yes... the parameter LFO Amount should be in the 1-4 range if you wanted a simple static vibrato... but if you want that to fade in, you would use the third envelope to control tha LFO Amount parameter... in that case you should set the LFO Amount to 0, then set the envelope 3 Destination to LFO Amount... this will get the routing right.

Next you dial in the delay time and attack time on envelope 3, just as you already did... but you should remember that envelope 3's sustain parameter now governs the max vibrato amount (sustain now becomes what the LFO Amount was with a static vibrato, as it controls this parameter)... and when you want a modulation in the 1-4 range, that is what you set in envelope 3's Sustain parameter... a value between 1-4.

That is basically all there is to it...

Alternatively, you could also set the envelope 3 Sustain parameter to the full amount of 127, and then instead lower envelope 3's Enevelope Amount parameter to the 1-4 amount... that would give the same result. This could give the another option to route Mod Wheel to envelope 3's envelope amount parameter, and control the amount of delayed vibrato from the mod wheel (in that case the envelope modulation amount parameter should also be set to 0, and the modwheel modulation amount would now be the one that should have that 1-4 range).

I hope I'm not sounding too confusing... you just have to remember, that modulations in REV2 are always ADDED to whatever you're modulating... this is why you need to have the parameters you are modulating have initial values of 0... if they are higher you would get static modulation instead, plus whatever is modulating them :)

I don't think this will achieve what skipgilles is trying to, as the sustain level does NOT set the maximum value of the vibrato, it only sets the sustain level. Before the envelope reaches the sustain level, there's the decay time. When the decay time kicks in, after the attack time, the level of the envelope is at 127, or at least the maximum level, from which it decays down to the sustain level. So the maximum level of the vibrato would rather be set with the envelope amount, or if via the mod matrix the mod amount. I'd keep the sustain level at max, then the decay time knob doesn't really have any effect, unless you again lower the sustain level to tone down the vibrato after it has reached its maximum.

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 10:00:54 AM »
What I mean is that using the sustain level to set the amount of vibrato doesn't achieve the same result as having it set to max and using env or mod amount to set the maximum level.

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 10:17:41 AM »
Thank you Maxter, I was already a bit confused by Razmo (AGF), because I understood it the way you describe it. Two questions left:
1) Can someone share their favorite settings for such a delayed vibrato?
2) Which of the formal descriptions of the amount-routing is correct:
A)
Additive: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix + Env3
or
B) multiplicative as in either, when routed to LFO amount directly:
Multiplicative 1: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section * Env3 + 4 * amount_mod_matrix
or, when routed to LFO amount though mod matrix:
Multiplicative 2: actual_LFO_amount = amount_LFO_section + 4 * amount_mod_matrix * Env3

Or in another way that I didn't describe?

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 12:05:31 PM »
1) Not sure, it depends. But in general, for a starting point something like:
Env3: Delay 64, Attack 100, Sustain 127, AMOUNT 3-8
LFO: Rate 64
Then, what I like to do in the mod matrix is route velocity to Env3 attack (and/or delay), with a small + amount. Aftertouch to LFO rate, small + amount as well, and aftertouch to LFO amount, also a small + amount (when doing this lower the Env3 amount a bit to compensate)

Then, most importantly, tweak each of these parameters simultaneously, one small step here, another there, etc.

2) = A

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 01:54:26 PM »
Here's a simple pad that uses Envelope 3 and the Mod Matrix to delay and fade in the onset of the vibrato. The key to this is keeping the Env 3 decay parameter at zero. That way it doesn't ramp up and then fall. It just ramps up and sustains. It's pretty smooth here.

Hope this helps,

Randy


Razmo

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Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 01:55:07 PM »
Yeah.. you're right... I was wrong... i should have known that... Sustain must be at max, it is the envelope 3's modulation amount that need to set the desired amount of vibrato as I also wrote as an option :)

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 03:26:35 AM »
Dear Randy, thanks so much, I will install your patch when I have my rev2 in the same building where my pc is. For now thanks all for all the help, Randy, Razmo, Maxter.

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2019, 07:48:49 AM »
Here's how you do it on the Prophet 12, it should be very similar process on the REV2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVX81OiFR3A

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2019, 08:39:41 AM »
BTW, on a DeepMind 12 it's as simple as raising the Delay time in the LFO section. No need for using/wasting a Mod Slot in the Mod Matrix  :P. Moreover, there is an LFO mode called "mono" where all the LFOs are in sync (acting like a single LFO), or "poly" where they behave like on the REV2, resulting in a mishmash of unsynchronized pitch modulations of each voice.  ::)

Just saying... ;)
Minimoog D (vintage), OB6 (Desktop), Oberheim Matrix-6 (MIDI Controller), Prophet REV2-16, DeepMind 12

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2019, 11:09:57 AM »
BTW, on a DeepMind 12 it's as simple as raising the Delay time in the LFO section. No need for using/wasting a Mod Slot in the Mod Matrix  :P. Moreover, there is an LFO mode called "mono" where all the LFOs are in sync (acting like a single LFO), or "poly" where they behave like on the REV2, resulting in a mishmash of unsynchronized pitch modulations of each voice.  ::)

Just saying... ;)

Yup, delay or fade in of LFO is nice... It's possible to make all the voices LFO in sync on the Rev2, by turning full unison on, playing a key, then unison off... far from ideal though. Mono/poly is clever. I think that's how the old Rolands are, always a "main" lfo running, so when turning off key sync, they all get slaved to the master. IF I recall correctly. Good in some ways, at the same time limiting in others... free-running LFOs like on the Rev2 has its benefits also.

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2019, 04:51:59 PM »
I feel like LFO vibrato is a basic enough quality to a patch that I wouldnít even want there to be knobs wasted specifically dedicated to that on the prophet. Currently I would never save with the LFO controlling vibrato as the LFO thatís toggled when recalling a patch anyway so Iím in no way envious of the deep mind having knobs for that.

Re: Delayed Vibrato
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2019, 01:12:39 PM »
So this isn't a perfect solution but it might be good for you in practice.

Try just mapping aftertouch to the vibrato amount. I've saved that setup and many other very small tweaks as my own sort of "Personal Init" patch that I load every time before patching. Its the user one program one so a quick turn of both knobs and I'm there.

I didn't like aftertouch at first but after saving it to my init patch like this, I find myself always digging in for a slight touch of warble, even on other keyboards.

Like I said, its not the exact same as a steady fade in or delay on the vibrato but I find it fulfills the same purpose for me.

Oh one more thing I often do, especially on sweeping pads. Instead of wasting an extra envelope I find it sounds just fine to link lfo amount (and often times speed as well) to the same envelope as the filter so the vibrato sweeps in alongside it! Its a good thing to keep in mind that you can map many parameters to the already existing LFOs and envelopes. There isn't always a need to introduce a new one into the mix.

One last tidbit along these lines. Attatching resonance to the same envelope filter that is controlling cutoff can sound great too. You could achieve the same peak resonance as simply setting the knob but it can be more gradual and dynamic when enveloped. I love it for chords that start electric piano like but then sweep slowly into a zappy resonant mess. It takes a fine touch not to go too far sometimes :D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 01:15:46 PM by philroyjenkins »