The Prophet '08 Among Prophets

[Sacred Synthesis]

Similar to yourself, I was drawn to the immense and dramatic intensity of the brass sections found in the third and fourth symphonies of Robert Schumann.  It's been my desire to re-create that sort of expressive musical power on the synthesizer.  Hence, I think very much in terms of pipe organs and symphonies whenever I sit at my synthesizers, such that one of the main obstacles for me is the synthesizer's comparable smallness of tone.  The gradations from delicate to massive are all necessary in producing great music, but the synthesizer is naturally capable of the former, but not so much of the latter.  So, my mind is forever pondering ways of overcoming this inherent smallness.

I'm looking forward to listening to the Schumann symphonies you mentioned. I find your comments about big and small very interesting. Looks like I have much to learn about sound design.

They're actually fairly brief sections, but Schumann knew just how to effectively exploit the power of the brass ensemble. 

[Sacred Synthesis]

Similar to yourself, I was drawn to the immense and dramatic intensity of the brass sections found in the third and fourth symphonies of Robert Schumann.  It's been my desire to re-create that sort of expressive musical power on the synthesizer.  Hence, I think very much in terms of pipe organs and symphonies whenever I sit at my synthesizers, such that one of the main obstacles for me is the synthesizer's comparable smallness of tone.  The gradations from delicate to massive are all necessary in producing great music, but the synthesizer is naturally capable of the former, but not so much of the latter.  So, my mind is forever pondering ways of overcoming this inherent smallness.

I'm looking forward to listening to the Schumann symphonies you mentioned. I find your comments about big and small very interesting. Looks like I have much to learn about sound design.

The sections I mentioned are just that - sections, rather than movements.  They're very brief, or else they're mixed with strings, but they reveal a musical power that only multiple synthesizers can achieve.  Here's about a one-minute example from Schumann's Fourth Symphony:

https://youtu.be/jCdQrkwUuEo?t=20m48s

[tumble2k]

@Sacred Synthesis: Those trombones are beautiful. And when the orchestra all plays together -- wow! I see what you mean: it's difficult to get that kind of bigness out of a synthesizer. I suppose just brute forcing the sound with several voices is a solution, but it gets expensive!

Anyway I hope I can get the mellower brass sounds out of the Prophet 08. Can't wait to get started. I've generated a little interest on the Ambika, but no sale yet...

[Jason]

The big brass sounds of John Barry move me the most:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yfaY5ovFhs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZsCxkGWOk4

I remember an interview with someone (from his memorial concert) saying that they visited him while he will recording, and that he had 12 French horn players lined up in the session. The question was: isn't that a little excessive? His answer was something like a simple "Yes, but just listen to them...."

I continue to be fascinated by the idea of using two 08's like Sacred Synthesis to get a bigger sound. (I nearly won a '08 module on eBay and will continue trying for a good deal on one.) When hearing complaints about the '08 sounding thin, I wonder how two combined 08's would compare to a single "thick" vintage synth. For example, how would a patch on two '08's compare to a similar patch on a single OB-X?

[Sacred Synthesis]

I understand that a judgment of quality of tone regarding the Prophet '08 is partly individual, but not entirely.  At least, folks are more prone to agree that two Prophet '08s together make a tone that is, well, not so thin-sounding.  Taking it from there, I would put my P'08 pair up against an OB-6 any day.  That's not to criticize the OB-6, because I really like its sound and would love to have one.  I just don't buy into the whole Prophet-'08-is-thin deal, not even in the case of a single Prophet '08.  In my opinion, it's more a matter of one's programming ability than the nature of the instrument.  And as a prudent rule, one should never judge a synthesizer by its factory programs.  Those are meant generally to show off the instrument's complexity, rather than its character. 

There's a new Tetra thread over on the Moog Forum in which the Prophet '08 sound is shredded without mercy.  I was always a fan of the "Moog sound" myself, but my Moog ear has always been impressed with the Prophet '08 sound as well, so I don't believe they're so far apart.  It's a reminder that all forum opinions - including those of the experts - should be taken lightly.  Often, you have to swim against the current to find what's good.  And it's generally best to follow a school of thought, rather than a school of fish. 

[Jason]

I think I first got excited about the Prophet '08 after seeing the YouTube video called: "Minimoog compared to dsi Prophet 08"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvt5VycR1Aw

It's not an ideal comparison: the volume and tuning are a tad off. I also suspect that the differences would be more striking if we could be in the room, rather than listening to a recording on our computers. Still, it's pretty difficult to watch it and come away thinking that the Prophet is "thin." With one or two oscillators, it sounds pretty similar. Obviously, the Moog excels in no small part because of the third oscillator, and I would still like to get one (or perhaps something like an AJH MiniMod).
http://www.ajhsynth.com/Minimod.html

I would love to be able to do a similar comparison myself, but I no longer have a MiniMoog. It's worth considering that the tester decided to sell the Moog.

There don't seem to be many people saying that the Prophet 6 and OB-6 sound the same... But obviously the '08 and Prophet 6 do sound very similar. We also have the many comparisons between the '08 and Oberheims. When I put all that together, along with the features like splits/layers and 61 keys, it makes me think that the '08 is the best single analog synthesizer for those of us who want to own just one. I would be happy to have more synths, but I really want to keep my live rig to two keyboard if possible (the other being a ROMpler), so I'm still very, very happy to have my '08.

[Sacred Synthesis]

I remember seeing that Minimoog-Prophet '08 video a few years ago.  If nothing else, it at least testifies to the fact that some feel the P'08 is worthy of a comparison, and that the P'08 comes away still standing.  I can say in my case, I definitely preferred the P'08 to the Voyager Old School, so much so that I sold my Voyager and bought a second P'08.  In fact, I even preferred a Mono Evolver Keyboard to a Voyager.   

As for the Minimoog's three oscillators, I don't miss them one bit because I use one of my Prophet '08s quite regularly in stacked mono mode - which gives me four oscillators, and in stereo pairs if I wish.  That's a substantial advantage over the Moog.

I see the Prophet '08 as a moderately flexible workhorse synthesizer with a character of its own.  The Prophet-6 and OB-6 would make excellent compliments to it;  their smaller size and more limited architecture make them accessories for when you've already got the basics covered with a P'08, but they also add some elements the P'08 cannot.  I'd say any combination of these three synthesizers would work very well.

[DavidDever]

Having read the snippets over in the Moog Forum, there are some good points raised:

• The sub oscs on the Mopho / Tetra voice do make quite a difference, in comparison to the Prophet '08 on its own, without any layering. If there were ever to be a Prophet '16, these would be a must have - as would be USB support.
• The CME keybed on the Prophet '08 leaves, for some players, much to be desired - the Fatar TP/9S on the Poly Evolver kbd is of better quality; that said - the CME is totally appropriate* for an entry-level unit such as the Mopho SE.
• Editing via the Tetra front panel is not as cool as having a Mopho SE (or Mopho kbd) for use as a control surface + extra poly-chain voice.

At the end of the day, however, the original poster ended up picking up a Tetra, which (at current street pricing) reflects a screaming deal for 4-part multitimbral analogue sound modules, with a big-boy-pants MIDI implementation.

* - Frankly, the keybed is the one thing that precludes shelling out for a Prophet 12 kbd, for me anyway, but that's not the only must-have item missing - Evolver / VS waves are another.

[Fuseball]

Funny that the P'08 keyboard comes in for criticism. From my, admittedly non-pianist, experience the keys on the P'08 and MEK are the only ones I've played that give me aftertouch I feel able to control. How do other people judge keyboard quality?

[tumble2k]

What I'm getting from this discussion is that when creating an ensemble type of sound the more detuned (or not completely in sync) oscillators one has the more massive the sound. If the detuned oscillators are panned differently this gives a spatially massive sound. One advantage of the VCO over the DCO is that by its nature a VCO is not going to be completely in sync with a VCO running at exactly the same frequency. Of course with the Prophet 08 you can use slop or other subtle modulations to simulate this effect.

Now I want to get a few Prophet 08 modules in addition to the keyboard.

Regarding the keyboard, is the Prophet 08 keyboard different from the Prophet 6 keyboard? That one was fine.

[DavidDever]

I believe that the P6 / OB6 keybed assemblies are Fatar 49TP/9S (not sure as regards the unweighted / semi-weighted / fully-weighted part).

Without flying too far off-topic, at least as far as aftertouch is concerned - some prefer the ability of the individual keys to uplift at the rear (near the spring) when a significant amount of pressure is applied to the front of the key. In this respect, the CME keybeds do seem to be better at this.

It may not seem like an important detail to some, but (like a fresh pair of new shoes) the feel does contribute to the overall enjoyment of playing an instrument: pivot point, return spring mechanism, etc. IMHO Yamaha got this down pat, were it not for the mechanical complication of the DX7 / Motif ES keybeds - but, ehh - to each his own.

I come from a classical organ & piano background, so feel is really a big deal to me, but I appreciate that others may not care at all.

[Fuseball]

While I agree this is flirting with being off-topic, it's very interesting to hear opinions of those more accustomed to playing traditional keyboard instruments.

It's not so much that I don't care about the keys themselves (I could list a great many keyboards that I don't like the feel of) but that my only direct frame of reference is other synths and how comfortable I find them to respond to velocity and aftertouch. My only experience of Yamaha was an An1x, which felt pretty good but effectively had on/off aftertouch with nothing in between.

I think without the piano background, I'm a very light player. Maybe that's why I like the P'08 keybed? I can get a good velocity response without hitting the keys too hard. The P-6 does definitely feel like a better made keybed but I must admit that it's taking some getting used to after the P'08.

[Sacred Synthesis]

Funny that the P'08 keyboard comes in for criticism. From my, admittedly non-pianist, experience the keys on the P'08 and MEK are the only ones I've played that give me aftertouch I feel able to control. How do other people judge keyboard quality?

If it's between the Mono/Poly Evolver Keyboard and the Prophet '08, I would say the latter is better.  I prefer it for playing, but also for triggering the after touch.  Where as, on the Evolvers, the aftertouch is too sensitive and reacts only a little better than an on/off switch.

[Sacred Synthesis]

What I'm getting from this discussion is that when creating an ensemble type of sound the more detuned (or not completely in sync) oscillators one has the more massive the sound. If the detuned oscillators are panned differently this gives a spatially massive sound. One advantage of the VCO over the DCO is that by its nature a VCO is not going to be completely in sync with a VCO running at exactly the same frequency. Of course with the Prophet 08 you can use slop or other subtle modulations to simulate this effect.

Massiveness comes from having multiple variably tuned oscillators in stereo, rather than only two that are widely detuned.  For me, anything less than four oscillators is inadequte.  And as for "Slop," it's probably the parameter for which I find the least use.  I don't share the enthusiasm of other synthesists for it, nor do I think it effectively emulates the character of old analog oscillators.  Rather, it emulates the shortcoming I most disliked on old synthesizers.  Decades ago, I owned and played those old synthesizers, and the worst problems I faced with them daily were all related to tuning.  It's beyond me how anyone would want to recreate those head aches.

[Sacred Synthesis]

Having played for years on old tracker pipe organs, I much prefer a firm keyboard touch.  The keyboards on those organs, especially when the manuals are coupled, are so firm that you practically need a running head start and a leap to depress the keys.  That was a little too much of a good thing.  But in general, I've found that a firm keyboard allows for more precision.  Equally important is the point in the key depression at which the note is actually triggered.  This is equally true with bass pedal boards.  If the trigger point is too close to the surface so that the slightest depression triggers the note, then it's difficult to control the attack because the note sounds sooner than you want or expect.  This shows especially in classical and Baroque music, or any type in which the attack of simultaneous notes is audible.  For example, when depressing a chord.  In a high-quality keyboard, each note of the chord can be easily trigger simultaneously so that the attack is crisp.  With a poor musician or a poor keyboard, the chord strikes consist of a series of sloppily triggered notes that create a smeared effect.  I hear this all the time with Hammond players, or when a pianist is playing an organ, but I have the same difficulty with the PEK and P'08 when I'm playing organ music.  Sad to say, these instruments don't have especially high quality keyboards, but I do think the P'08 has the better.

This sort of problem does not show up when you're playing fast.  You have to play somewhat slowly to notice it, especially from chord to chord in a legato style, as hymns are to be played.  And the envelope has to be organ-like: immediate Attack and Release with full Sustain.  That's how I test a keyboard.

Here are some examples of smeared chord strikes.  Listen carefully to the first six chords on the string synthesizer, especially the second and last ones.  The fourth chord strike is the cleanest, but the others are quite sloppy.  It might be due to Banks' somewhat careless playing, but it can also be due to a cheap keyboard that doesn't precisely trigger.  In either case, a good organ teacher would have your liver for it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U2nTJ4huxA

[tumble2k]

Wow that song brings back memories! That's a great album. I'd love to be able to write such great music.

[DavidDever]

At current street pricing, you could buy twelve voices (3 x Tetra) for what you'd pay for a Prophet '08 module, while getting USB and a pair of sub-oscillators per voice along with the deal.

[Sacred Synthesis]

Wow that song brings back memories! That's a great album. I'd love to be able to write such great music.

It brings back memories to me as well.  Would you believe I've remembered the attack of those chords all these years later?  In my old band days, I used an organ sound that imitated Banks' - a drawbar organ through a phaser and a chorus.  It's quite easy to get it just right.  It's Banks' exceptional talent that also hooked me on the ARP 2600 and Roland Space Echo - two pieces I was never able to afford.  I loved the gorgeous and layered electronic orchestral sound he mastered with such instruments as the Polymoog, Prophet 10, Mellotron, and ARP Quadra.  Even his use of the ARP Pro Soloist was excellent.  I have to admit that I'm still influenced by him today in both music and sound.  He taught me the exceptional usefulness of the diminished seventh chord.  That chord can segue between two unrelated harmonic places with remarkable grace.  I'm sure my love of crescendi is partly through his influence, as well as the classic sawtooth solo patch that I use so much.  My last improvisation ("Crescendi") is pure Banks. 

[Paul Dither]

Wow that song brings back memories! That's a great album. I'd love to be able to write such great music.

It brings back memories to me as well.  Would you believe I remembered the attack of those chords all these years later?  In my old band days, I used an organ sound that imitated Banks' - a drawbar organ through a phaser and a chorus.  It's quite easy to get it just right.  It's Banks' exceptional talent that also hooked me on the ARP 2600 and Roland Space Echo - two pieces I was never able to afford.  I loved the gorgeous and layered electronic orchestral sound he mastered with such instruments as the Polymoog, Prophet 10, Mellotron, and ARP Quadra.  Even his use of the ARP Pro Soloist was excellent.  I have to admit that I'm still influenced by him today in both music and sound.  He taught me the exceptional usefulness of the diminished seventh chord.  That chord can segue between two unrelated harmonic places with remarkable grace.  I'm sure my love of crescendi is partly through his influence, as well as the classic sawtooth solo patch that I use so much.  My last improvisation ("Crescendi") is pure Banks.

Vintage Banks, yeah. Clearly a master of modulations. One of the best examples for me is still the musical knowledge facilitated in a piece like "Apocalypse in 9/8" - harmonically and rhythmically. Just to have those three notes at the bottom (E, F#, B) that enable him to go thru all kinds of key changes. That and the rhythmic juxtaposition creates a very well orchestrated tension and a great built-up.

[Sacred Synthesis]

The challenging thing in that piece is that the 9/8 time signature is not done in the usual three groups of threes.  It's difficult to follow without counting out nine eighth notes because the notes are not grouped in the usual sets.  Otherwise, 9/8 is usually an easy time signature to follow.  Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is in 9/8!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3UuGPCCm_I