The Prophet '08 Among Prophets

tumble2k · « **Reply #160 on:** May 06, 2016, 01:18:54 PM »

Quote from: Sacred Synthesis on May 06, 2016, 10:21:07 AM

I haven't put much energy into creating a choir patch on the P'08, mainly because the Poly Evolver does such a fine job on this sound. I don't think the P'08 is quite up to this challenge, though, because of its filter, but you can get vaguely similar. The closest I've come is in "Improvisation LXII," but I wasn't even trying. The key is in using a lot of filter Keyboard Amount, setting the right amount of Resonance, finding the exact spot on the Cut Off Frequency, having a fairly wide vibrato depth (3), and using a moderately slow Attack.

I am listening to Improvisation LXIII Crescendi -- lovely! At 2:40 you have a drone that sounds a bit like a female choir. Is that the Evolver?

The sound in LXII sounds a bit more like a male choir but doesn't quite have that resonant quality I'd expect. Still a sweet sound that I would play all day!

Aargh don't talk about a module. I don't want to hear it!

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #161 on:** May 06, 2016, 01:31:39 PM »

No, that note/sound is played on the upper Prophet '08. Here's a Poly Evolver choir patch, starting at 1:18 and continuing throughout:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpWEOEIo0So

All the string sounds in this video were made on the Prophet '08s.

Yeah, I know the module issue is a wallet-killer. I'll try to contain my enthusiasm....

But what about a Tetra?

MartinM · « **Reply #162 on:** May 10, 2016, 02:16:34 AM »

Moinmoin,

Well, You needn't... (SCNR, Thelonius

)

... use a formant filter to synthesize a choir.

Formants are nothing else than massive peaks within the frequency spectrum of a given sound, the main peaks of the most wanted vocal voices being at:
"U" ~ 320Hz ~ E4
"O" ~ 500Hz ~ B4
"A" ~ 1000Hz ~ B5

These peaks may be generated in multiple ways, of which a formant filter surely is one. But there are other possibilities:

setting a filter to nearly resonate at the (main) frequency of the required formant
mixing the "normal" sound with a more or less filtered frequency (or noise, filtered as above) of the required formant
syncing an oscillator with the formant's (main) frequency

To get a choir You will have to do those things quite normal generating "many voices":

set Osc waveforms to square to allow pulse modulation to mimick a kind of chorus
use a stacked patch (A+B), which will again make the sound more chorus-like
set slop to a value >3 as a third measure to mimick some more voices

Now care for those formants:

set Osc 1 key follow to OFF (Osc 2 remains ON) to free Osc 1 to generate a frequency in the formant range
set Sync to ON, and sync Osc 2 with the formant frequency set by Osc 1

You may start from here by tweeking Osc 1 frequency, Osc mix, filter, audio mod, and noise to Your taste. Audio mod and noise may be relevant, as formants do shine in a sort of mix more than in a sound only defined by one single frequency. If satisfied with the sound, try modulations (LFOs) and Envelopes on some parameters.
You may even get two pleasing sounds and manage to "morph" between those by use of the modulation wheel:

write down the differences in parameters of the two sounds
set one of them with modulation wheel in its zero position
set the parameter differences as parameters of the modulation wheel

This is what I did to morph a sort of el cheapo male choir from "aaah" to "oooh" (see attached PDF), but do Yourself a favour:
Take the time to check the way described above before "mindlessly setting knobs"
Don't keep Yourself from learning...

HTH

Martin

tumble2k · « **Reply #163 on:** May 10, 2016, 06:29:01 AM »

Thank you for your post Martin! I have had a little experience with sync and was able to get a somewhat vocal sound so your explanation makes sense to me.

My Prophet '08 should show up on Monday. Between SS's strings and brass tricks and MM's choir tips I'm completely beside myself with anticipation!

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #164 on:** May 10, 2016, 08:30:52 AM »

Quote from: MartinM on May 10, 2016, 02:16:34 AM

Moinmoin,

Well, You needn't... (SCNR, Thelonius )

... use a formant filter to synthesize a choir.

Formants are nothing else than massive peaks within the frequency spectrum of a given sound, the main peaks of the most wanted vocal voices being at:
"U" ~ 320Hz ~ E4
"O" ~ 500Hz ~ B4
"A" ~ 1000Hz ~ B5

These peaks may be generated in multiple ways, of which a formant filter surely is one. But there are other possibilities:
setting a filter to nearly resonate at the (main) frequency of the required formant
mixing the "normal" sound with a more or less filtered frequency (or noise, filtered as above) of the required formant
syncing an oscillator with the formant's (main) frequency
To get a choir You will have to do those things quite normal generating "many voices":
set Osc waveforms to square to allow pulse modulation to mimick a kind of chorus
use a stacked patch (A+B), which will again make the sound more chorus-like
set slop to a value >3 as a third measure to mimick some more voices
Now care for those formants:
set Osc 1 key follow to OFF (Osc 2 remains ON) to free Osc 1 to generate a frequency in the formant range
set Sync to ON, and sync Osc 2 with the formant frequency set by Osc 1
You may start from here by tweeking Osc 1 frequency, Osc mix, filter, audio mod, and noise to Your taste. Audio mod and noise may be relevant, as formants do shine in a sort of mix more than in a sound only defined by one single frequency. If satisfied with the sound, try modulations (LFOs) and Envelopes on some parameters.
You may even get two pleasing sounds and manage to "morph" between those by use of the modulation wheel:
write down the differences in parameters of the two sounds
set one of them with modulation wheel in its zero position
set the parameter differences as parameters of the modulation wheel
This is what I did to morph a sort of el cheapo male choir from "aaah" to "oooh" (see attached PDF), but do Yourself a favour:
Take the time to check the way described above before "mindlessly setting knobs"
Don't keep Yourself from learning...

HTH

Martin

Martin, if you have an audio sample of this patch, I would love to hear it. I haven't found Sync to be helpful in creating a large realistic chorus sound. It is useful in creating an individual voice, although one that is a bit humorous and lacks dignity. The big choir effect necessitates at least eight voices. A mere four voices, especially with the needed longer envelope release time, would have reassigning notes all over the place, which would destroy the necessary gracefulness and immensity of the sound. But if you've managed the big choir patch or anything close to it on a Prophet '08, I'm all ears. Can you post an audio sample, something polished with reverb? I'd love to hear the finished sound in context.

tumble2k · « **Reply #165 on:** May 10, 2016, 10:57:55 AM »

Quote from: Sacred Synthesis on May 10, 2016, 08:30:52 AM

I haven't found Sync to be helpful in creating a large realistic chorus sound. It is useful in creating an individual voice, although one that is a bit humorous and lacks dignity.

That's a pretty understated and hilarious description. Do you mean it sounds like "mow mow mow?" But I think your earlier comments about creating ensembles apply here. There's no substitute for cubic inches!

I am ever more convinced you're just trying to get me to buy another Prophet '08 module even before I've received my keyboard version yet. You're pretty evil considering your moniker (just kidding!)

I'll try to make something like this patch on my Teenage Engineering OP-1 to see what I get.

Martin, I too would love to hear an audio sample if you'd be willing to create one.

I was thinking about the choir-like drone in Improvisation LXIII. I think that the reason it sounds like a female choir is because the wave is almost a pure sinusoid. There's supposed to be a fourth formant that is very strong in opera singers. I wonder if there's some relationship.

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #166 on:** May 10, 2016, 11:09:37 AM »

Quote from: tumble2k on May 10, 2016, 10:57:55 AM

That's a pretty understated and hilarious description. Do you mean it sounds like "mow mow mow?" But I think your earlier comments about creating ensembles apply here. There's no substitute for cubic inches!

I am ever more convinced you're just trying to get me to buy another Prophet '08 module even before I've received my keyboard version yet. You're pretty evil considering your moniker (just kidding!)

I'll try to make something like this patch on my Teenage Engineering OP-1 to see what I get.

Martin, I too would love to hear an audio sample if you'd be willing to create one.

I've made a distinctive soprano voice using Sync, but it's not anything I'd want to actually use. It's the sort of sound that makes me laugh, so into the music it will not go. Using it in a polyphonic mode is hard to imagine, but perhaps Martin is on to something.

I'm not trying to talk you into buying a Prophet '08 Module, Tumble2k. Okay, I am. No, wait, I'm not....

The problem is, the Prophet '08 is an excellent instrument as is, but it has a potential that it cannot reach without that other module. It's transformed by the second unit. That's the "problem." I would say the same about a Poly Evolver Keyboard: it's transformed by a Rack. I consider voice-count to be of extreme importance, as important as the length of the keyboard. These are just the basic necessities of music, and coming up short on them leaves one musically handicapped in ways that can't be easily overcome. So, my personal approach is to have only a few larger/expanded instruments, rather than have many smaller ones.

tumble2k · « **Reply #167 on:** May 10, 2016, 02:42:08 PM »

Quote from: Sacred Synthesis on May 10, 2016, 11:09:37 AM

I'm not trying to talk you into buying a Prophet '08 Module, Tumble2k. Okay, I am. No, wait, I'm not....

The problem is, the Prophet '08 is an excellent instrument as is, but it has a potential that it cannot reach without that other module. It's transformed by the second unit. That's the "problem." I would say the same about a Poly Evolver Keyboard: it's transformed by a Rack. I consider voice-count to be of extreme importance, as important as the length of the keyboard. These are just the basic necessities of music, and coming up short on them leaves one musically handicapped in ways that can't be easily overcome. So, my personal approach is to have only a few larger/expanded instruments, rather than have many smaller ones.

Yeah, I hear you. Back in March(?) I had the idea that I might buy a Korg Minilogue having played one that belonged to a friend. At some point I realized that it was a toy. A cute and nice sounding toy, but a toy. The four voices and the three octave keyboard would never be enough for real music. I agree that four layered voices won't do for any sort of classical music. At the same time I'm not sure how to convince my wife that I need a $1350 module in addition to the keyboard I just bought.

MartinM · « **Reply #168 on:** May 11, 2016, 04:24:02 AM »

Moinmoin,

don't know what Sacred Synthesis is trying to convince of, but IMHO P'08 is the synth currently available giving me most of what I need.
In my case: It is a musical instrument of own worth, and although I sometimes use it for "mimicking something", I prefer the sounds unheared yet, which it is capable to produce a lot of: I need knobs to extensively use them in realtime!

I will take a sound sample of my

Quote

sort of el cheapo male choir from "aaah" to "oooh"

(don't forget that "cheap", although I really use this sample) and post it.

Will take me until friday this week as I am on travel.

Martin

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #169 on:** May 11, 2016, 07:55:10 AM »

Quote from: MartinM on May 11, 2016, 04:24:02 AM

Moinmoin,

don't know what Sacred Synthesis is trying to convince of, but IMHO P'08 is the synth currently available giving me most of what I need.
In my case: It is a musical instrument of own worth, and although I sometimes use it for "mimicking something", I prefer the sounds unheared yet, which it is capable to produce a lot of: I need knobs to extensively use them in realtime!

I will take a sound sample of my
Quote
sort of el cheapo male choir from "aaah" to "oooh"
(don't forget that "cheap", although I really use this sample) and post it.

Will take me until friday this week as I am on travel.

Martin

Martin -

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I simply find your idea intriguing and would like to hear the results. If they're good, then you've definitely got one on me, because I haven't yet been able to produce a satisfactory choir patch with the Prophet '08. Plus, our respective ideas of a good choir patch may differ. And again - if possible, could you add a fair amount of reverb and play the patch a bit, rather than just sustain a few chords? I'd like to hear it sound its best and get a sense of its potential. This is one sound that I haven't seriously attempted on the P'08.

tumble2k · « **Reply #170 on:** May 11, 2016, 09:03:40 AM »

Quote from: Sacred Synthesis on May 11, 2016, 07:55:10 AM

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I think he means convincing me to get another Prophet '08.

I tried a sync'd sawtooth on my OP-1. The slave was set to get a peak at around 1kHz to get the "AHH" formant. Then I set a resonant filter at around 3 kHz for the "4th formant". This didn't sound like much until I did a unison of six voices, and then it sounded like a choir! The range is limited because there's no concept of removing key follow so I can't turn it off.

I'll record this and post it tonight. It does not have the same level of refinement as SS's instruments, but neither does the OP-1. Of course I did this on the train coming in to work this morning...

MM: Looking forward to hearing your patch too.

tumble2k · « **Reply #171 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:15:55 AM »

Well, I didn't post the recording because I realized that without the ability to keep the slave oscillator fixed, there was only one note or maybe two that sounded good. The rest had a subtle chipmunk quality, like a poorly sampled choir. I also didn't post because this is a Prophet '08 forum not an OP-1 forum (Monday just can't come soon enough!)

In order to get the voice to sound like a choir I needed to unison the six voices, which meant I could only play a single note at a time, which was pretty sad. This problem lends credence to SS's findings that if you want to create ensembles, there's no substitute for more voices.

Here's a link to an explanation of the "singing formant" I referred to in an earlier post.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/singfor.html

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #172 on:** May 12, 2016, 09:24:40 AM »

I do think the key to the choir patch, before all else, is to start off with the proper wave shape. In such a case, that requires either a particular digital wave shape, or a substantial number of analog wave forms that can be combined to imitate that wave shape. And then, voice number. This is why I think a twelve-voice poly synth like the Prophet 12 is by no means over the top. But, not having played a Prophet 12, I don't know if it has the right wave shape. I've asked this question at least a couple times on P12 threads, without receiving a clear answer. For now, I'm content to consider the Poly Evolver Keyboard (or Prophet VS) to be among the best means, in the DSI line up, for creating a decent choir patch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIN0sthfksg).

Listening online to those patches that are called "synthesized choir," I find that they generally have a throaty quality about them, but little more. But many are so covered in a dense digital smog of aliasing, filter sweeping, and white noise, so as to have an ethereal character, that it's not quite accurate to call them choir patches. I would consider this example to be more accurate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUqZvhO_TeI

Many moons ago, I created a choir patch on a Juno 60 that was fairly good. It was the Roland filter that made it possible.

MartinM · « **Reply #173 on:** May 17, 2016, 04:06:22 AM »

Moinmoin,

was a little bit knocked out on friday and rather busy regarding real life during whitsun, so I respond just now.

The attached raw "choir" is exactly the patch attached to my recent posting here and was taken directly and mono out of the P'08 without any further processing into an mp3-recorder. All I did with it afterwards was adjusting the level with audacity.

A few months ago I spent a little time trying to recreate a simple choir of a friend's microkorg, that pleased me. This is what I ended up with and sometimes use to create a sort of "dark monks attitude" (BTW: Do You know the Monks? Great band of the 60s). Now that I hear it directly out of the P'08, I think I could still tweak it to make it sound fuller. Pulse-width modulation is not yet used, the voices are still very similar, so there are some things to play with.
There is also some "twizzle" at certain morphing stages, that I might try to get rid of.

Anyway: You can hear a sort of choir and the morphing of formants. You may also take it as an example how to use different parameters (sync, audio mod, resonance) to create formants, which are nothing else than peaks at certain frequencies.

Martin

tumble2k · « **Reply #174 on:** May 19, 2016, 01:53:29 PM »

I received my Prophet '08 on Monday night, and I've been heads down in it every evening since then. When I first listened to it I was unimpressed, but I found that you need to really crank it up to enjoy it properly. I've been enjoying the build quality and the UI of this high-class instrument.

Thank you Sacred Synthesis for your choir videos. I did enjoy your Poly Evolver patch and the elegant simple counterpoint. The Prophet VS patch sounded a lot like what I expect from a choir, but I suspect that it's only good in an extremely limited range (as you point out in your notes for your video).

Thank you Martin for your recording. This does sound choir-like. However, it seems to me there's an important formant missing. I'm not sure which one, but it's high and broad. I experimented around with your method and came up with a patch that is similar to yours but not as sophisticated. You gave me some great places to start working from. Anyway the patch is wonderful sounding, and if you feel inclined to share your refinements, please do. I will enter in your patch exactly as you specified it and play around with it.

tumble2k · « **Reply #175 on:** May 21, 2016, 03:44:09 PM »

Well, using the techniques from MartinM's post I was able to put together this choir sound. It's not half bad! The key was to use a pulse wave with an LFO creating a subtle chorus sound. Then I added a little vibrato with a second LFO. I doubled the voice using a layer using a slightly different filter frequency and resonance (along with the base frequency for a little detune). I'm amazed how good of a choir comes from this beastly instrument! Thank you again Martin and Sacred Synthesis for all of the tips and tricks.

The recording was made with Logic Pro 7 (very old). The chord sequence is played dry and then with Logic Pro's Space Designer with a cathedral reverb.

Some of my settings:

Layer A

Osc1 Freq (sync slave): F#5
Osc1 Fine: 0
Osc1 Shape: Pulse 27
Osc2 Freq (master): C 2
Osc2 Fine: -5
Osc Mix: 46

Filter Freq: 105
Resonance: 53
Env Amount: 0
Env Velocity: 0
Keyboard Amount: 3

LFO1 Freq: 33 (Chorus)
LFO1 Amount: 6
LFO1 Shape: Triangle
LFO1 Dest: Osc1 PW

LFO2 Freq: 82 (Vibrato)
LFO2 Amount: 3
LFO2 Shape: Triangle
LFO2 Dest: OscAllFreq

Layer B

Osc1 Freq (sync slave): G 5
Osc1 Fine: 0
Osc1 Shape: Pulse 27
Osc2 Freq (master): C 2
Osc2 Fine: 4
Osc Mix: 46

Filter Freq: 106
Resonance: 58
Env Amount: 0
Env Velocity: 0
Keyboard Amount: 3

LFO1 Freq: 32 (Chorus)
LFO1 Amount: 7
LFO1 Shape: Triangle
LFO1 Dest: Osc1 PW

LFO2 Freq: 77 (Vibrato)
LFO2 Amount: 4
LFO2 Shape: Triangle
LFO2 Dest: OscAllFreq

Both
Amp Attack: 90
Amp Sustain: 127
Amp Release: 50

Osc1 Key Follow Off
Osc2 Key Follow On

No modulation (but I'll play around with MM's trick of getting other formants).

Sacred Synthesis, should I start a different thread? It's kind of morphing into a choir thread.

Sacred Synthesis · « **Reply #176 on:** May 21, 2016, 03:54:47 PM »

No, I wouldn't bother. It's all Prophet '08 based, and I don't think the choir theme will last for long before we move onto other P'08-related topics.

Good choir patch, by the way. It sounds decent with reverb.

dswo · « **Reply #177 on:** May 21, 2016, 06:19:37 PM »

Quote from: tumble2k on May 21, 2016, 03:44:09 PM

Well, using the techniques from MartinM's post I was able to put together this choir sound.

Nicely done! Thank you for sharing the patch details.

tumble2k · « **Reply #178 on:** May 22, 2016, 09:03:10 AM »

Moinmoin, (stolen from MartinM!)

Thank you Sacred Synthesis and dswo!

There are two directions I want to go with the patch.

1. Make the sound morph into a female choir as you go up the keyboard by using the keyboard note number.
2. Try to have the mod wheel morph between different formants.

I was experimenting earlier today and found the answer to one of Jason's questions far back in the forum: Is there a way to pan one layer on one side and the other layer on the other?

The short answer appears to be NO, but as Sacred Synthesis has explained early in this thread, you can set the Pan Spread to 0 and use one Main Output and one Output B channel to get that nice spacious sound.

However, I don't have a mixer, so I'd have to pass these cables into my computer to listen to them over headphones (I don't really have a studio either), and I hate working with the computer. I usually use the headphone out.

I discovered that if I set the Pan Spread to 127, the two layers are always panned to opposite sides. This means that if the two layers are similar you still get the spacious sound. I certainly can't tell that with each note played the voices are swapping between the left and right channels.

Jason · « **Reply #179 on:** May 23, 2016, 11:45:42 AM »

Quote from: Sacred Synthesis on May 06, 2016, 10:21:07 AM

once you've worked with the instrument for a while, you're going to see the logic of coupling the keyboard with a module, as you see your best ideas limited by a four-voice result. The Prophet '08 cries out to be a sixteen-voice instrument.

Hey All,

If you've read this whole thread, you may remember that I've been looking to get a module to accompany my Prophet '08. I've been trying to get a good deal on eBay and just missed one a couple months ago. I finally got one over the weekend at a good price. Were it not for the extra mixer channels, I may have gone for two Tetras instead. In addition to being cheaper, I like that they are smaller. But the module will work better overall, and so I'm glad that I got it. I'm very happy to finally have it and really enjoyed going through many of the sounds to compare and to hear the improvement.

Because my focus is live use, I intend to keep it in a rack down on the floor. This brings up a Midi question:
In addition to the module, I use my Prophet '08 keyboard to control a Hammond organ module (btw, the best one that I've found is the HX3). I intent to keep the Midi channel on 3 for controlling the module and then switch to Midi channel 1 or 2 to play the organ. I'm hoping that, with only these two slaves, I won't need a Midi thru box. When I make the switch from playing synthesizer to playing Hammond, I first turn down the volume on the keyboard and then change channels. As long as the volume is turned down, it works fine. The issue is that when I change to channel 1, the module also changes to channel 1. So if I accidentally touch the Prophet's volume pedal, the module volume jumps up and becomes audible. Most slave instruments should stay on the Midi channel picked on it and would not change with channel changes on the master (I think). How can I get the module to not respond to Midi channel changes but still respond to everything else?

I'm sure I'll have other comments and questions, but I need to get going. Obviously, I think S.S. is really on to something here. I love how these two sound together.
-Jason