Voice question (Rev2 8)

S Y Z Y G Y X · « **on:** October 29, 2018, 05:54:57 PM »

I dunno if I’m misunderstanding my 8 voice Rev2, but I just recalled the basic patch and am playing around with some melodies with no stack or split and when I press the 5th key voice stealing occurs, wouldn’t this be considered 4 voice polyphony? I thought with no stacking or splitting 8 voices means 8 notes can be played at once?

extempo · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2018, 06:16:26 PM »

This sounds like a MIDI feedback loop. I'll bet that if you disconnect MIDI/USB, it doesn't happen.

S Y Z Y G Y X · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2018, 06:45:01 PM »

Hmm, you’re right I’ve been dealing with some irritating feedback loop for a year now, can’t figure it out what it is. I use the synth in Logic X connected via midi din, the usb gave me a horrible feedback loop and hung notes when I first got the synth so I tried midi din and that fixed the hung note issue.

So I just turned local control control off and now all 8 voices play at once.

The thing is if I turn local control off then I can’t play notes into the polyphonic sequencer. But whatever I guess being able to play more notes is more important. Any idea on how to sort out this feedback loop in Logic X?

Razmo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2018, 12:25:40 PM »

Quote from: S Y Z Y G Y X on October 29, 2018, 06:45:01 PM

Hmm, you’re right I’ve been dealing with some irritating feedback loop for a year now, can’t figure it out what it is. I use the synth in Logic X connected via midi din, the usb gave me a horrible feedback loop and hung notes when I first got the synth so I tried midi din and that fixed the hung note issue.

So I just turned local control control off and now all 8 voices play at once.

The thing is if I turn local control off then I can’t play notes into the polyphonic sequencer. But whatever I guess being able to play more notes is more important. Any idea on how to sort out this feedback loop in Logic X?

That has been a standing bug for quite some time... that with Local set to OFF, and using it with your DAW echoing the MIDI data, certain things do not work very well... there are still some issues that SCI have not dealt with... also some FX work weird if the same FX is chosen for both layers in a split/stack...

I do not believe you have a problem with a MIDI loop... what happens with local set to off is that instead of connecting the keys (and other controls) directly to the engine, it cut's that connection... now anything you touch on the user interface of the REV2 will ONLY be sent out the MIDI OUT port... thus is is necessary that your DAW echoes that data, and sent it BACK to your REV2... otherwise you will not hear anything... the REV2 will accept MIDI also when it set to Local OFF...

This is how it is supposed to work so that you can use your DAW to direct the incomming MIDI to any MIDI output you have in your DAW (potentially playing other synthesizers with the REV2's keyboard etc.).

So what happens if you do NOT set Local to OFF is that when you hit a key, the note is played internally (as the connection is ON to the engine), but it also send out the note via MIDI to your DAW... your DAW then echoes that note back to your REV2's MIDI IN, and it plays the same note once more... this happens so fast you probably will not hear much difference, except that notes are doubled... this also means that you have what sound like 4 voices.... you're simply doubling notes.

extempo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2018, 01:41:04 PM »

Razmo, your claim of a long standing bug is unsubstantiated. If you have reproducible steps that result in the behavior you describe, please open a ticket with support. It causes confusion for other users if you conflate things that are unrelated.

SYZYGYX, please contact support directly and we can troubleshoot and further problems you may be encountering.

maxter · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2018, 05:08:43 PM »

Quote from: S Y Z Y G Y X on October 29, 2018, 06:45:01 PM

Hmm, you’re right I’ve been dealing with some irritating feedback loop for a year now, can’t figure it out what it is. I use the synth in Logic X connected via midi din, the usb gave me a horrible feedback loop and hung notes when I first got the synth so I tried midi din and that fixed the hung note issue.

So I just turned local control control off and now all 8 voices play at once.

The thing is if I turn local control off then I can’t play notes into the polyphonic sequencer. But whatever I guess being able to play more notes is more important. Any idea on how to sort out this feedback loop in Logic X?

Personally, I'm not fond of putting instruments in "local off" mode if I don't really have to (though sometimes it may be necessary, for example controlling 5 multitimbral parts on a synth with its own keyboard). Instead of "local off" mode, I make sure that whatever DAW or sequencer I'm using does NOT echo back the midi information to the instrument. This is often quite simple, some even have a specific button/tick box for this, so that the information is not returned when playing and recording, BUT the information is still sent when playing back already recorded midi information.

To me, this is less confusing and troublesome.

S Y Z Y G Y X · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2018, 05:36:23 PM »

Maxter, do you know, or does anyone here know how to set logic so it does not echo back info? I was on the phone with dsi/sci for a few days back and forth in September when I first got my Rev2 and I was having bad issues with hung notes via the Rev2 hooked up usb midi, and no one could figure out what the problem was or how to fix it, nor could they direct me how to stop any midi echos/feedback loops in Logic. I stopped using usb midi and switched to midi din and that fixed the hung notes issue I was having.

At this point I’ll just keep local control set to “Off” and I’ll continue to use the Rev2 how I’ve been using it. The only reason I changed local control to “On” was so that I could try to learn, and play notes from the keyboard into the polyphonic sequencer, but I really don’t see myself using the polyphonic sequencer as you can’t play back the sequence on the Rev2’s keyboard...unless I’m mistaken?

maxter · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2018, 06:39:09 PM »

I've never worked with it personally, only on sessions with others that used it as their DAW, and Logic was not always very logical, imo. I probably went through this problem at least once back then, but I can't recall. A quick search for "logic midi echo" on google gives some results though, and you're far from alone with having this problem. See if any of these methods described work for you, otherwise keep searching and you'll probably find a solution eventually:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114689
https://logic-users-group.com/threads/disable-midi-thru-for-multiple-instruments.4611/
http://stokemusic.blogspot.com/2009/06/logic-8-how-to-prevent-midi-echo-thru.html

Razmo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 31, 2018, 01:51:57 PM »

Quote from: extempo on October 30, 2018, 01:41:04 PM

Razmo, your claim of a long standing bug is unsubstantiated. If you have reproducible steps that result in the behavior you describe, please open a ticket with support. It causes confusion for other users if you conflate things that are unrelated.

SYZYGYX, please contact support directly and we can troubleshoot and further problems you may be encountering.

Sorry... it WAS a standing bug... according to your own bug-fix lists in the OS thread, it was fixed in 1.1.4.9 (Point 12.) ... but i find this former bug mentioned all the way back in 2017, and I know for a fact that I myself mentioned it, either to support or in a thread i now cannot find anymore... it was mentioned here for example:

https://forum.sequential.com/index.php/topic,2008.msg21917.html#msg21917

So the conclusion should be that you should know this, and probably just tell the user here to update his OS

Calling my comment "unsubstantiated" is perhaps a bit over the top here...

Razmo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 31, 2018, 02:07:50 PM »

Quote from: S Y Z Y G Y X on October 30, 2018, 05:36:23 PM

Maxter, do you know, or does anyone here know how to set logic so it does not echo back info? I was on the phone with dsi/sci for a few days back and forth in September when I first got my Rev2 and I was having bad issues with hung notes via the Rev2 hooked up usb midi, and no one could figure out what the problem was or how to fix it, nor could they direct me how to stop any midi echos/feedback loops in Logic. I stopped using usb midi and switched to midi din and that fixed the hung notes issue I was having.

At this point I’ll just keep local control set to “Off” and I’ll continue to use the Rev2 how I’ve been using it. The only reason I changed local control to “On” was so that I could try to learn, and play notes from the keyboard into the polyphonic sequencer, but I really don’t see myself using the polyphonic sequencer as you can’t play back the sequence on the Rev2’s keyboard...unless I’m mistaken?

This bug was fixed in OS 1.1.4.9 ... you must be working on a REV2 with a prior OS then... update your REV2 to the latest beta and you should be able to record sequences to the Poly Sequencer via MIDI (which is basically what happens when Local is set to OFF, and your DAW is echoing the played notes back to the REV2).

If you ARE on OS 1.1.4.9 or later, then your problem must be elsewhere...

S Y Z Y G Y X · « **Reply #10 on:** October 31, 2018, 02:16:49 PM »

Hahaha yah Razmo my man, guess what OS i’m on? 1.1.0.1

I have never updated the OS on my Rev2. I guess I should probably get on that?

Razmo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 31, 2018, 02:25:14 PM »

Quote from: S Y Z Y G Y X on October 31, 2018, 02:16:49 PM

Hahaha yah Razmo my man, guess what OS i’m on? 1.1.0.1

I have never updated the OS on my Rev2. I guess I should probably get on that?

Most certainly... a LOT of bugs has been fixed since that!! ... the most stable I've encountered are the latest one, so just go ahead and update your REV2... I bet your version is also filled with bad voice bugs relating to the LFOs which was a major problem in the beginning... just enter the beta OS thread in the top of this forum... you can download it from there

It's good practice to follow the OS beta thread to see if any important bugs have been fixed... this is a thread I keep an eye on every single day

S Y Z Y G Y X · « **Reply #12 on:** October 31, 2018, 02:47:27 PM »

Well well, thanks Razmo, and thanks Maxter for the Logic Vid link.

I haven’t updated my Rev2 because it seems like a pain in the bum..like what I’ve read about having to calibrate it after the update and the calibration freezes the synth?

Well I’m sure my 1.1.0.1 Rev2 is infested with bugs 🐛 🐜!!!

Razmo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 31, 2018, 04:34:54 PM »

Quote from: S Y Z Y G Y X on October 31, 2018, 02:47:27 PM

Well well, thanks Razmo, and thanks Maxter for the Logic Vid link.

I haven’t updated my Rev2 because it seems like a pain in the bum..like what I’ve read about having to calibrate it after the update and the calibration freezes the synth?

Well I’m sure my 1.1.0.1 Rev2 is infested with bugs 🐛 🐜!!!

Calibrating is not that hard... when you've updated, simply do this:

1. go to GLOBAL and select "Reset Globals"
2. set your global parameters any way you like them now, and exit GLOBAL menu
3. wait half an hour so that the REV2 has warmed up properly to working temperature
4. shut off the REV2, and wait full 10 seconds, then turn it on again
5. go into the GLOBALS menu, and calibrate the osc/filters

done... that's all there is to it, and you'll have a perfectly calibrated REV2

maxter · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2018, 04:07:05 AM »

I linked to some forums below the video as well, as there seem to be quite a few workarounds for midi echo, depending on which version of Logic you're using etc. Unfortunately doesn't seem to be a "midi echo"-box/button that works in the preferred and most logical way (ie echo/through off, but still playing back already recorded events via midi out).

Even if the sequencer record bug is sorted with a newer firmware, I generally advice against using synths with local off/midi echo on (although it can also have advantages in some cases, as I noted earlier), mostly because it loads synths and systems with "unnecessary" midi information. If you have several synths connected via the synths "midi through" jacks, (and even if one doesn't, perhaps one day you'll suddenly need to, in a live setting for instance) I'd certainly recommend against it. It can also introduce lag, and some synths are not happy with sending lots of information and simultaneously receiving lots of information. So there is one less thing to worry about and to eventually troubleshoot, when something strange happens, like synths freezing, lagging, or in other ways behaving strangely, etc...

You should probably update your OS though... I'm on 1.1.4.5, the latest official release. I'm missing out on some features, but it's a very stable version.

S Y Z Y G Y X · « **Reply #15 on:** November 01, 2018, 07:36:16 AM »

Thanks gentlemen for the info here, super appreciate you both.

Razmo, since I will be resetting Globals for the os update I guess it’s best that i take a look at my current global settings and take note of what I have them at now as updating the OS will reset the globals to factory settings?

Razmo · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2018, 08:01:47 AM »

Quote from: S Y Z Y G Y X on November 01, 2018, 07:36:16 AM

Thanks gentlemen for the info here, super appreciate you both.

Razmo, since I will be resetting Globals for the os update I guess it’s best that i take a look at my current global settings and take note of what I have them at now as updating the OS will reset the globals to factory settings?

Yep! ... if you have forgotten how they were set, it would be wise to note them down first, so that you can set them back after the update... the reason for the reset of the globals is that new parameters sometimes get added to the list of globals, so it needs to be reset after an OS update...

S Y Z Y G Y X · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2018, 01:05:33 PM »

Oh guys I have one last question before updating the OS!

Would you recommend updating to the newest Beta version, or the current official version? If the newest Beta version isn’t too buggy I’ll install it.

Razmo · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2018, 01:22:43 PM »

Quote from: S Y Z Y G Y X on November 02, 2018, 01:05:33 PM

Oh guys I have one last question before updating the OS!

Would you recommend updating to the newest Beta version, or the current official version? If the newest Beta version isn’t too buggy I’ll install it.

I'd update to the latest... I used it extensively with my ongoing bank creation, and also my editor... I've not run into anything bad... and there are some bugs in the current official version that has been fixed with later beta versions... I'm always on the latest beta... you may run into the occasional new bug introduced into a beta, but they are usually quickly fixed since most users report these quite fast.

Chimponaut · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2018, 03:09:37 PM »

It seems like something has changed with the way midi is implemented in these newer synths. My previous setup, which consisted of a NL2, MS-2000, Z1, Triton Le, never had as much as a hiccup running with midi thru activated and local turned off. The first time I noticed an issue was with the Sub37 but only in Duo mode. The 2nd pitch wouldn't play correctly if I had midi thru active. Then came the Rev 2. I ended up creating a shortcut in Nuendo to open the midi preferences so I could quickly toggle midi thru on/off. Now the Prologue is also much happier when midi thru is turned off. Probably my most used shortcut now a days thanks to this new batch of synths that behave wildly with midi thru active.