The Big Dark Relativistic Pit

chysn

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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2016, 01:40:51 PM »
For somebody who's no fan of relativism, you make a pretty good case for relativism.

But it's not all truth, justice, and kindness. If music can evoke nouns, we can't leave out despair, wretchedness, cruelty, and artificiality. It's all there, if any of it's there at all. Sit down for Mahler's Kindertotenlieder for a few minutes.
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Shaw

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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2016, 12:09:39 PM »
What is music, anyway?




Everything on this planet has something to do with music. Music functions in the realm of sculptured air. [Frank Zappa]
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa
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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2016, 12:12:07 PM »
And silence is only a whole rest.

Shaw

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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2016, 12:13:28 PM »
And silence is only a whole rest.


Is not silence still music? ... though not sculpted by anyone, it still has a shape.
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa
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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2016, 12:39:48 PM »
And silence is only a whole rest.


Is not silence still music? ... though not sculpted by anyone, it still has a shape.

The perception of silence is very much depending on sounds or music in this case. It also depends on what you consider to be silence. I mean I can drive out into the countryside and there's still no silence because of the birds, bugs, wind, rain, or whatever might occur as a source for sounds in what we call nature.

In music, silence can also be a synchronic phenomenon, just by a group of instruments not playing while a singer is still singing for example.

I would also argue that silence can't really be music, although it can be part of it. You can embed silence qua composing. But silence by itself is almost comparable to the absence of any measurable quantity. It's certainly not nothing, as it still is something, but it becoming a phenomenon is only granted by a context that is not silence. Also, music is basically nothing but a manipulation of time, which becomes a bit tricky to organize with silence.

chysn

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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2016, 03:42:58 PM »
I was going to address silence being music, but it turns out that I don't want to say anything about it right now.

Instead, I'll offer up this:

https://soundcloud.com/edgefoundationinc/brian-eno-composers-as-gardeners

It's definitely worth 15 minutes of your time. I want to say things about it, but I'm not going to right now.
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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2016, 05:22:52 PM »
You planted a seed here.  ;)

I can relate quite well to that although I'm not really composing generative music all the time. But the thought about surrendering has been important to me within a musical context. To cut a long story short: It took some collective approaches for me, or bands as one would say, to find the role within a music making environment - and beyond - I could be comfortable with. And that was not the leader position or the actual writer position although I did that too, but rather the listener who lets others step ahead first and then tries to work within the established set of boundaries. So in that sense, I feel more comfortable as a user, facilitator, and organizer of the material and the environment that surrounds me than a creator in the traditional sense. But I also don't believe that much in inspiration like the muse that suddenly throws a kiss at you. It usually doesn't pay off to just sit there and wait for ideas. Inspiration comes from constant work, not from waiting for the right moment.

For me, it has always been a challenge to qualitatively recreate a situation that is similar to a collective one, just for myself. Because if you found out that you like to be a facilitator and organizer in the first place, how are you going to do that with just yourself? The generative approach is quite helpful there. Just as in editing, it requires you to step back from yourself to a certain degree, to treat the work that has already been done as if it was done by someone else, who's voice is to be respected. What is common here, is the notion of stepping off center. You surrender to something that is there, has been recorded, or exists as a sort of concept, instead of imposing your authority on it. That's basically why I always considered listening to be more important than playing. You can of course train yourself so that both takes place simultaneously, which would result in instant composing and not just improvising.

In a collective environment that's of course easier to imagine, as there is actually something happening you can be carried by in the actual moment - a drug-like experience you can even have in a classic choir.

chysn

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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2016, 05:17:28 PM »
Quote from: Paul Dither
For me, it has always been a challenge to qualitatively recreate a situation that is similar to a collective one, just for myself. Because if you found out that you like to be a facilitator and organizer in the first place, how are you going to do that with just yourself?

It's probably not really possible, because there's no mind to say Hmmm... When I was in a band, someone would say something like, Hey what if we changed the last chorus to a minor key, like this? and somebody else would say Hmmm.... and we tried it, and sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't.

With generative music, you have to pull your own weeds. You have to expect most of the seeds to fail, or to sprout something grotesque. I just spent four hours working on a generative patch that simply didn't work. I recorded maybe six takes before realizing that it just wasn't going to bear fruit, and pulled all the cords out.

Still, I like generative music because it makes no demands. Melodic music tortures me. A melody pops into my head, goes around for a while, and leaves. When I was young, I worried that it wouldn't come back, but it always comes back, sometimes months later. And it goes around, and I play with it in my head for maybe years, literally, before even trying to play it on the piano. It doesn't go away until I notate it, or otherwise create a complete piece out of it. And after I do, it leaves me alone forever. That, to me, is the horror of melody; it demands to be brought into the world, like there's already an impression of it somewhere that it must fill.
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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2016, 05:09:29 AM »
Quote from: Paul Dither
For me, it has always been a challenge to qualitatively recreate a situation that is similar to a collective one, just for myself. Because if you found out that you like to be a facilitator and organizer in the first place, how are you going to do that with just yourself?

It's probably not really possible, because there's no mind to say Hmmm... When I was in a band, someone would say something like, Hey what if we changed the last chorus to a minor key, like this? and somebody else would say Hmmm.... and we tried it, and sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't.

You can sort of emulate that other voice by setting up a set of rules, which of course is related to another technique Eno established together with Peter Schmidt: the Oblique Strategies. You can't necessarily reproduce the level of spontaneity that is connected to another autonomous entity, but you can certainly limit the amount of choices you'd make if you would just "do whatever you want". In that sense you'd give up an arbitrary notion of free will and modify it according to an actual restistance.

With generative music, you have to pull your own weeds. You have to expect most of the seeds to fail, or to sprout something grotesque. I just spent four hours working on a generative patch that simply didn't work. I recorded maybe six takes before realizing that it just wasn't going to bear fruit, and pulled all the cords out.

Here's actually a problem I have with Eno's use of the term "nature," or rather with the fact that he doesn't really specify what his understanding of that term really is. In the everyday use of language, we usually refer to nature if we talk about "being out there," where the trees and creeks are and the birds sing (depending on your actual geographical position that notion will of course differ). In most cases, the term is used to either mark a difference between highly populated areas and rural areas, or to emphasize the contrast between cultivated/civilized places and untouched places. Such an attempt ignores that there is no such thing as an untouched place on earth, since everything has been measured already and daily practices of exploiting the planet are of course affecting the whole, especially in the long term. The Anthropocene does of course not push back the laws of nature (to which we have only access via abstraction), but it illustrates that nature as such is pretty much invisible to human beings, as their goal is defined by overcoming its limits - hence the invention of technology. So as such, nature is really being perceived as something like the ultimate border behind which something radically different is lurking that can't really be fully grasped - hence the Kantian notion of the sublime. Now one might of course argue that humans are a product of nature themselves, but thinking this thought to an end would equal pulling the rug away under common cultural and anthropologic concepts.

Back to Eno's gardening metaphor: There is of course a difference between the absolutistic garden of Versailles and the occasional kitchen garden. While the first is serving purely representative means, the latter is being set up for an actual use value. Nevertheless, the impact of humans on (untouched) nature is pretty much the same in both cases, albeit being demonstrated more restrictively in the ornamental garden. My point is, as soon as humans intervene or start to cultivate on whatever scale, nature stops being nature in the sense of something that is untouched. It starts to mutate into something that is being composed, even if you decide to let that bush of roses grow for the next three years. Because by deciding the latter, the bush of roses is already determined to grow under your authority. So even if you decide to maintain an unorderly garden, it ends up being a composed untidiness. Kind of in the same way that anti-art is still always art, never authentic, but always artificial.

Still, I like generative music because it makes no demands. Melodic music tortures me. A melody pops into my head, goes around for a while, and leaves. When I was young, I worried that it wouldn't come back, but it always comes back, sometimes months later. And it goes around, and I play with it in my head for maybe years, literally, before even trying to play it on the piano. It doesn't go away until I notate it, or otherwise create a complete piece out of it. And after I do, it leaves me alone forever. That, to me, is the horror of melody; it demands to be brought into the world, like there's already an impression of it somewhere that it must fill.

Interesting note on the haunting quality of melodies and its relation to a horror vacui.

I'd like to question though whether generative music makes no demands. Maybe not in the haunting sense that is tied to the melody you've described above. But in order for generative music to start to proceed, several steps have to be taken in advance, most commonly: designing an algorithm that keeps the whole kinetic thing running. And while the outcome of it might not equal traditional and overly intentional compositions, its blueprint has to be composed as well, which sort of reveals it as being the composition's own destiny instead of anything that's actually free-floating. The fact that we don't have enough time to listen to all the permutations that could eventually happen, doesn't make it any less predetermined. It's just a problem of mortality, which in turn makes even generative music a part of the most traditional artistic practices.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 05:25:50 AM by Paul Dither »

Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2016, 06:21:23 AM »
Music: uncovered cosmic patterns (in audible format) that have been hiding in plain sight for 5 billion years.

LoboLives

Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2017, 09:21:04 AM »
The release of the soul through sound.

Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2017, 08:05:33 PM »
Music is math

 ;D

chysn

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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2017, 09:32:25 PM »
I had to take a while to respond to this, because there was a lot to turn around in my head.

Here's actually a problem I have with Eno's use of the term "nature," or rather with the fact that he doesn't really specify what his understanding of that term really is.

It's probably okay for him to lack rigor on that point, or to define it narrowly. Nature could be as simple as "what happens to your yard when you don't do anything." It doesn't have to mean that anything is totally untouched by humans. I could let my garden become overgrown with grass, but it's the type of grass that probably doesn't really exist outside of suburbs. There's still "nature" going on despite human involvement.

Quote
I'd like to question though whether generative music makes no demands. Maybe not in the haunting sense that is tied to the melody you've described above. But in order for generative music to start to proceed, several steps have to be taken in advance

By "makes no demands" I did not mean "takes no effort." Of course it takes effort in all aspects, from the conception to the creation. When I said generative music makes no demands, I meant that I can choose whether or not I make it; but melody is what happens when I don't do anything.

Quote
The fact that we don't have enough time to listen to all the permutations that could eventually happen, doesn't make it any less predetermined. It's just a problem of mortality, which in turn makes even generative music a part of the most traditional artistic practices.

Wading into whether generative music is "predetermined" or not is hopefully not relevant. Maybe absolutely everything was predetermined from the beginning of the universe, or maybe chance operations or interactions do make the music less predetermined. Either way, I don't think that the idea of conscious will emerging from a synthesizer patch is implausible.
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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2017, 02:51:41 PM »
The title of this topic is stolen from a lovely term coined by Sacred Synthesis, who doesn't think this is the place for a philosophical discussion. But I think it sounds fun.

What is music, anyway?

(The big dark relativistic pit is pitch black. We're likely to be eaten by a grue....)

I'll start. My favorite definition is from John Cage invoking Edgard Varèse. "Music is organized sound."

Well I'll jump in here with 2 methodological tools I have found useful in my past philosophizing:

1.) E-prime (or V-prime):  E-prime consists of forming statemtents and arguments in English (or any Vernacular) that avoid the use of the existential predicate, which consists of the verb "to be" and it's conjugations (am, are, were, was, will be etc).  Using E-prime tends to cause us to express our ideas in ways that avoid dogmatic generalizations which we cannot prove beyond doubt; often we tend to include in our statements more externally or other-verifiable descriptions of our experience.  These tendencies then seem to yield more productive conversations, since we avoid the various infinite regresses that open up when people start off with saying how things "are".

2.) Nominalizations: Verbs frozen into nouns, which we then talk about as if they're physical objects.  We can counter this with the phrase, "There's no such thing...", which you can test by imagining whether you can put that noun in a wheelbarrow.  If someone says "Music is...", you would counter "There's no such *thing* as music", meaning that music doesn't exist as a thing out in the world, it exists as a *process* that people do, composed of various subprocesses like playing, recording, listening, feeling, interpreting.  So you can keep in mind more spefically what someone means when they use a particular nominalizatin (frozen verb, ie Truth, Beauty, Justice, Music, Love), instead of your previous private interpratation.

Both of these tools tend to demystify our language by making it less relativistic; they require or lean towards some potentially shared sensory experience that anyone can verify and validate if they so choose.  As a result, we can often cut right to the heart of where our ideas and understandings with someone else diverge, and can mutually investigate them from common ground.

So in response to Cage, I would start by clearing the decks, stating that "There is no such thing as music", until we agree that music consists of processes rather than a fixed thing, and then asking about the various processes required and the people involved.  Who organizes it?  Where does it get organized?  What counts as sufficiently organized, and who gets to decide this?  If I listen to birds and crickets chirping at sunset, and intentionally organize my listening attention alternating first to my left, then to my right, have I created music?  Or did the birds and crickets create it?  (given 4'33", I would guess his answer as the former, ie me)  If no one else would ever hear it as it all occured in my head, does it count as music, or does it need to exist in the outside world so that another person (or animal or whatever) could theoretically hear it?  If the birds and crickets didn't intend to create those sounds *as music*, but rather just as speaking to each other, does that disqualify it as music, or does my choice to organize it in my mind and consider it music take priority over the intentions of those who created the sound?

Et cetera, et cetera.   :D

The flip side to this, IS that when you want to create worlds - when you want to associate things that may not have any necessary or causal connection outside of your mind and those you seek to impact - you can USE nominalizations and the existential predicates, ie "Love is a battlefield", "The truth is out there", "Disobedience is aggression", etc.

Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2017, 02:55:00 PM »
Engineer discuses with a humanist. This is going to get interesting!

:o . o O ( rtfm modernity fast )

I would hope all engineers value humans.  Or at least, the human ones.  I can understand that spider engineers can disregard us without moral hazard.  :)

Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2017, 03:00:03 PM »
You guys are so restrained! We need to give our good moderator something to do.

I think music is like pornography. I can't define it but I know it when I (hear) it.

I'm no fan of relativism. At the same time I'm sure my views of music are completely colored by what I have experienced so far. I think the beauty of life is that there are many things we know but we can't define. Music may be one of those. Truth, beauty, justice, compassion, kindness, nature, and what some would call God.

Sorry my post now has both "pornography" and "God" in the same sentence.

Well there's no such things as "relativism", "pornography" or "God", so you have nothing to worry about.  :D

(see my previous post about "nominalizations" for clarification)

Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2017, 03:01:32 PM »
And silence is only a whole rest.


Is not silence still music? ... though not sculpted by anyone, it still has a shape.

Yes, silence is exactly "still music".   :D

Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2017, 03:10:52 PM »
I had to take a while to respond to this, because there was a lot to turn around in my head.

Here's actually a problem I have with Eno's use of the term "nature," or rather with the fact that he doesn't really specify what his understanding of that term really is.

It's probably okay for him to lack rigor on that point, or to define it narrowly. Nature could be as simple as "what happens to your yard when you don't do anything." It doesn't have to mean that anything is totally untouched by humans. I could let my garden become overgrown with grass, but it's the type of grass that probably doesn't really exist outside of suburbs. There's still "nature" going on despite human involvement.


I would consider it *essential* for Eno to lack rigor on that point... as an artist (world-makers, see my previous post).  As a philosopher or scientist (world-describers/analyzers), I would absolutely require more rigor of him.  Fortunately I've never confused him with philosophers or scientists, so I'm happy to appreciate his lack of rigor, and to engage the worlds he offers to us.

chysn

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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 03:14:35 PM »
I can't put a neutron star in a wheelbarrow. The wheelbarrow's protons and electrons would be fused before the neutron star can get anywhere near the wheelbarrow. Also the wheelbarrow is too small.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 03:18:19 PM by chysn »
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Re: The Big Dark Relativistic Pit
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2017, 03:20:07 PM »
And silence is only a whole rest.


Is not silence still music? ... though not sculpted by anyone, it still has a shape.


The perception of silence is very much depending on sounds or music in this case. It also depends on what you consider to be silence. I mean I can drive out into the countryside and there's still no silence because of the birds, bugs, wind, rain, or whatever might occur as a source for sounds in what we call nature.

Even in a soundproof chamber, we still tend to hear our blood pumping in the veins in our head, the sound of our breathing... It's almost impossible to experience the absence of sound which most people think of as silence, short of directing your attention so completely elsewhere that your mind simply blocks out the sounds in your environment.  In which case it's not really silence, but just a form of hypnotic deafness.