New Rev2, how is it as a master MIDI controller?

psionic11 · « **on:** September 02, 2018, 09:58:49 PM »

Hello world

,

I've been following the Rev2 forum for about a year, but this weekend I finally pulled the trigger and now have a 16voice on the way. All that anticipation built up, can hardly wait!

The rev2 will serve tier 2 duties on my gigging rig. My Kronos 61 is the top controller on MIDI channel 1. Previously I had a very faithful Novation X-station 61 on tier 2, but it is dying so I needed to replace it. This tier 2 controller was split onto two channels, with the lower two octaves covering synth bass duties on ch2 and the upper octaves on ch3 carrying extra timbres as the cover song dictates. I plan on using the Rev2 in bi-timbral mode on channels 2 and 3 to take the place of my trusty X-station. I want to program 70's classic synth songs, 80s new wave, Van Halen and Rush synth songs, and of course more modern top 40 type dance stuff.

The rev2 seems like it would be a good controller for my rig -- authentic analog to complement my Kronos and Integra virtual analogs, bi-timbral and split channels, velocity/aftertouch, lightweight and portable.

However, the X-station had very flexible MIDI routing options, with not only USB MIDI, but also three DIN MIDI ports -- IN, OUT1 and OUT2. The 2 OUT ports could also merge.

I've read the manual and don't see the option, but I'd like to ask if it's possible to have the rev2's MIDI OUT port serve as a MIDI merge? I would like to use both the THRU port and an OUT/TRHU port to replicate what I had with the X-station.

psionic11 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 03, 2018, 08:23:04 PM »

tldr;

Does the Rev2 support any type of MIDI merge via either USB or DIN? Thanks.

Syngenor · « **Reply #2 on:** September 04, 2018, 08:17:57 PM »

In a word (or 4), I don’t think so.

I was curious about this, as I wanted the REV2 to control a second synth for bass duties on the lower half of a split.

And you can, sort of. It’s not ideal, nor does it seem like something they want you to do with the REV2.

Essentially, you’ll have to split the keyboard and mute whichever layer you don’t want to hear.

Even then, you can’t split the midi channel, so you’ll hear both synths. Unless you can limit the range of the second synth. For example, I can point the midi at my ESQ-1, and just have it play on the A layer half of the split, but only because I have the option to split the ESQ-1 as well. If you don’t, you’ll hear both up the full length on the keyboard.

Multimode works the way I want, but only with incoming midi signals. It doesn’t function the same going out, because it’s engine based, not keyboard based.

In theory the REV2 is a “bi-timbral keyboard.” In practice however, the REV2 is really “2 independent synth engines which can be controlled externally via 2 separate and consecutive midi channels, or internally via the splittable, single midi channel keyboard controller you find attached.”

At least to my knowledge anyway. I would love to be told I’m wrong here and am overlooking some option. ::crosses fingers::

However, it has an awesome keybed, with a really nice action and functions great as a controller...when you don’t need to use the actual REV2 simultaneously.

psionic11 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 06, 2018, 01:05:27 AM »

Thanks for the reply. I actually had already planned on muting the lower half in split mode when I didn't want to layer the Rev2 bass with another bass sound. But you have me concerned now when you said this --

Multimode works the way I want, but only with incoming midi signals. It doesn’t function the same going out, because it’s engine based, not keyboard based.

I'm depending on the Rev2 to send MIDI channel 2 out on the lower 2 octaves only, while the upper 3 octaves need to transmit channel 3. All my songs are structured to this standard!

As for the MIDI merge issue, I've thought of a workaround. By looping my 3 keyboards MIDI out to in to thru, and turning local control to OFF to break the MIDI feedback loop, I was able years ago (pre X station) to have all keyboards function as master controllers. But back then I didn't have Mainstage, so I need at least one keyboard to merge via USB so that everything talks or listens as needed.

Syngenor · « **Reply #4 on:** September 06, 2018, 07:58:47 AM »

Yeah. I was disappointed to find multimode was only splitting the incoming midi channel. I didn’t fully understand how that mode worked prior to purchase.

Haven’t really messed around with the usb (outside of updates) or the midi thru, so maybe there’s some backdoors that assist with workarounds. But there doesn’t seem to be anyway to get the keyboard to send out on separate channels. Perhaps s future firmware can add this functionality.

I’ve actually been considering picking up a Minitaur for performance bass duties specifically because of its limited note range haha.

psionic11 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 06, 2018, 01:24:32 PM »

The Minitaur note range is limited, but its upper end is higher than most bass lines.

In my rig, for channel 2 bass duties, I currently use Kronos bass sounds, which are decent when cranked thru subs. I've also layered in the Minitaur, and it just rounds out that bottom end so much it puts a smile on your face.

I want to use the Rev2 for some colorful unison bass sounds, and I also plan on getting IK's Modo bass for physically modeled bass guitar for when I have to play left hand bass.

My main axe is actually bass guitar, and I also play Taurus-style bass using my FCB1010. I like bass!

Syngenor · « **Reply #6 on:** September 06, 2018, 05:14:54 PM »

Man, thats a whole lotta bass. Haha.

The REV2 produces some pretty solid bass on its own. I was surprised. No doubt aided by its subosc, a little distortion and some lower voice unison. I was surprised by how capable it showed itself to be in that area. I was expecting a really thin low end from what I had read, and it can hold its own. Perhaps maybe not quite enough for a player of your bass passion though, ha.

My idea with the Minitaur was to either let it thicken up the REV’s low end a little on a bass side of a split (like you mentioned yourself) or just letting it be the bass all by itself down there and muting that layer on the Prophet.

With its limited range, I wouldn’t have to worry about the upper half of the split also triggering the Minitaur, so long as I stayed above C4 (I think?it maxes out there...correct?)

psionic11 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 06, 2018, 06:43:10 PM »

Actually, the Minitaur maxes out at C5, MIDI note 72. That's pretty high up for bass, and would take up an unneeded extra octave on your Rev2's lower split that you would mute out.

Perhaps fiddling with transpose and setting the OSC's range you could achieve what you want. My Rev2 arrives tomorrow evening (along with my Matrix 1000, woot woot), so I'll be spending the weekend exploring. I'll hook up my Minitaur and let you know what I achieve. Sounds like we're trying to do the same thing at least as far as bass splits go.

I'm really let down with the Rev2 not being able to transmit on 2 separate channels. I'm torn on whether to return it for the desktop module, but that won't work with my live rig. I pored over the manual a few times desperately looking for hopeful clues. But the section on A/B split says it *receives* on 2 channels but mentions nothing about transmitting on separate channels.

So much for the Rev2 (or any DSI/Sequential synth?) being a sufficient live rig master controller keyboard since it can't transmit on multiple channels, nor can it merge MIDI flows via either DIN or USB.

It's a real contrast to the fact that Omnisphere rates both the Prophet 6 and the Rev2 (as well as the Novation bass station) as "Outstanding" control surfaces for its new Hardware Synth Integration.

I'm guessing the Prophets give you a binary choice of either controlling Omnisphere or controlling your live rig, but not both at the same time. My Kronos and Privia PX-5S have much more comprehensive master controller capabilities, but to be fair, while they can transmit and receive on multiple MIDI channels, they cannot merge USB with DIN MIDI either.

The Novation X-station truly was ahead of its time as a MIDI controller:

- excellent velocity and aftertouch keyboard
- 4 keyboard zones
- MIDI in, two MIDI out/thru, and USB MIDI
- flexible MIDI in/out routing over all DIN/USB port combinations
- USB audio (2 channel), functioned as a sound card
- 2 line/mic audio inputs
- multi FX
- 8 voice mono-timbral VA synth with arpeggiator
- 3 osc, with wavetables
- 9 faders, tons of buttons and knobs, transport controls
- MIDI CC, NRPNs, sysex
- functioning pc editor
- battery, USB, or wall wart powered
- templates for common VSTs and DAWs (the original Hardware Synth integration)
- lightweight and extremely portable and rugged

Alright, enough of my X-station eulogy. I don't think anything nowadays has multiple MIDI DIN out/thru with USB MIDI merge and audio capabilities anyway, not even Novation.

I've got a new dog on tier 2. I *will* adapt the Rev2 into my gigging rig, even if I have to dig out my old 1u MX-8 MIDI patch bay...

Gomjab · « **Reply #8 on:** September 06, 2018, 07:49:08 PM »

I know it’s not the same as having the capabilities built in but this box will allow you to split a keyboard on one MIDI channel to multiple channels with split points.

http://www.midisolutions.com/applicat.htm#Router

https://www.midi-store.com/Midi-Solutions-Router-p/sku16801.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIr-LGyvGn3QIVWLnACh3GRAOCEAQYAiABEgIgn_D_BwE

I have not used this specific box but I have had great luck with their thru and merge boxes.

Syngenor · « **Reply #9 on:** September 06, 2018, 11:05:18 PM »

Really, C5? I understand people’s frustration with the Minitaur having any note limit at all, but that’s not so bad really. Still pretty useful. Except in a specific application with the REV2, ha.

As far as I remember, the transpose is global, so you can’t define a note range per layer.

I’m sure all the DSIs would make fine controllers for ominsphere, as they’re plenty knobby, send midi and have awesome keybeds, but like you say, only when controlling exclusively, so I totally share your frustration.

For what it’s worth, I read on another thread here from a DSI rep that it’s the company’s position that their synths are not designed to be controllers, and as such they have no plans to add any functionality to that end. But they said that about Beatsynced arps for a while, so you never know.

Syngenor · « **Reply #10 on:** September 06, 2018, 11:14:27 PM »

Quote from: Gomjab on September 06, 2018, 07:49:08 PM

I know it’s not the same as having the capabilities built in but this box will allow you to split a keyboard on one MIDI channel to multiple channels with split points.

http://www.midisolutions.com/applicat.htm#Router

Oh dude, this is a knockout. I didn’t know they even made splitters like this! You are the man right now Gomjab. Thank you for this.

Gomjab · « **Reply #11 on:** September 07, 2018, 02:40:55 AM »

No problem. There are more sophisticated solutions like this one:

https://www.lab4music.it/index.php?lang=EN

I have never seen the Sipario first hand but here is a Sonicstate review
https://sonicstate.com/news/2016/07/25/sonic-lab-lab4music-sipario-midi-router/

And a Electronic Muscian review
https://www.emusician.com/gear/review-lab4music-sipario

Of course if you gig with a laptop with MIDI interface there are ways to split and route on the computer. For someone who likes to gig without a laptop the Sipario looks pretty slick.
If you go with the MIDI solutions or Sipario let us know how it works.

Syngenor · « **Reply #12 on:** September 07, 2018, 02:24:40 PM »

Thanks again. That Sopario looks pretty neat.

For sure with software. I just route the REV2 like this in Logic if I’m connected up, but it would be nice to be able to do this without a computer. That MidiSolutions box seems like the ticket.

I have a Motu MTP AV connected as well, which could work without the computer, but I couldn’t seem to figure out how to limit the note messages, or if even the Motu could send splits like that. Clockworks is kinda long in tooth and buggy.

psionic11 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 07, 2018, 07:33:06 PM »

Now this gets my hopes up. Robot Heart (with DSI/Sequential) responding in Razmo's Feature Requests thread:

Quote from: psionic11 on Yesterday at 07:12:39 PM
Two requests on my wishlist for the Rev2:

1) Ability to *transmit* on 2 channels when in split mode. Master MIDI controllers need to transmit, only modules need receive only.

Robot Heart: Already possible. Use Multi mode for this.

Syngenor · « **Reply #14 on:** September 07, 2018, 08:34:19 PM »

Well, thats encouraging. Maybe I’m just an idiot haha. I don’t recall it working the way we were talking, but I could be wrong about the whole damn bit, ha.

There was a thread here I read which kind of echoed what I was saying about multimode. But, in my search to find that thread, I found the other thread I mentioned earlier.

Extempo does say it’s not designed to be a controller, but he also says this will work (guess I forgot that part, ha.) Here’s that post:

Quote

“As Bezoblika points out, with Multi Mode enabled along with Split, the keyboard will transmit MIDI note data independently on consecutive MIDI channels on either side of the split point. If you set the B layer Program Volume to zero, the B layer patch will not sound when you play the keyboard above the split point, and you could thus control another piece of gear in this manner with the synth only making sound from the A Layer when you play below the split point. This does mean that you would only have access to 1/2 of the voices in your Prophet Rev2, but it is achievable.

One thing to keep in mind as you're configuring your setup is that, while our instruments feature robust MIDI implementations, they are not designed to double as full fledged MIDI controllers, and thus will not have the flexibility of a dedicated controller keyboard in this regard. We design our UIs to serve the purpose of the instrument first and foremost, and aren't interested in compromising on this front in order to serve a purpose for which they are not intended. A dedicated MIDI controller keyboard will make a better MIDI controller than one of our instruments in most situations.

So there’s that. I can try this again when I get a chance. I remember it not quite working right, and then reading it doesn’t actually transmit, only receive. But maybe i just did it wrong and (I hope!) the above is true.

If I am incorrect, I apologize for spreading improper information and giving you the wrong impression.

Syngenor · « **Reply #15 on:** September 08, 2018, 12:11:35 PM »

Ok! So i’ve set this all up according to Extempo’s reply, and I can confirm it does work the way he says. So the REV2 is definitey transmiting on 2 channels. I’m sorry I gave you the impression it did not.

I think the reason I believed this is because when I tried it, multimode (at the time) did not support splits and layers, and you need to activate the split to make it function this way.

The left side sends the selected midi, and the right hand side sends the consecutive. So left sends say Ch.1 and right Ch.2

So, if you want the left hand side to be the bass from an external module, you need to set them to the same midi channel, and then (like we were talking) you have to mute the A layer.

The B layer is on Ch. 2, so it will only trigger the REV2 in this setup. You could mute both layers (or simply run local off) and totally control 2 separate synths if you wanted.

This is great news, but I am truly sorry for making you believe otherwise. I really shouldn’t post on forums, as I’m being the complete opposite of helpful, ha.

I’m not sure how much this does for you in the way of merging the midi. I would think being connected to a DAW you should be able to manage lots of combos now though with 2 channels available, as this opens up lots of possibilities.

I’m glad I’ve come to fully understand its functionally. So thank you for that. And again, I am sorry for my improper information and for creating more confusion.

Gomjab · « **Reply #16 on:** September 08, 2018, 02:02:35 PM »

Great news. I’ve never used the Rev2 as controller as my main set of keys is an RD-2000 which excels as a multi zone controller. It’s good to know if I ever need to do a split with a faster synth action I could use the Rev2.

psionic11 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 08, 2018, 07:08:49 PM »

Just got a few minutes auditioning patches... that slow brassy Vangelis sounded nice and lush. Hadn't had a chance yet to set it up as a 2 channel MIDI controller yet, but I'm stoked you got yours working. Just wanted to say thanks for testing and confirming that. Now back to the new shinies...

Syngenor · « **Reply #18 on:** September 09, 2018, 01:04:06 PM »

Congrats on recieving your REV2, it’s is a really nice sounding and powerful synthesizer.

Thanks. I’m glad to have it working finally. Although, I think a lot of problems i’ve been having with my set up can be traced my Motu MTP AV, which is being goofy, and constantly sending MIDI signals and mucking things up. Gotta get that sorted.

Oh! And This. You’ve probably already found this, but while digging through the global, I noticed the midi out select (#12), and you can definitely set it to MIDI+USB. I’m not sure if that’s exactly what you were looking for, but the REV can totally do that.

psionic11 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 09, 2018, 05:37:07 PM »

I'm still sorting out the new MIDI logic in my reassembled rig / studio. I haven't found any merge capability in the Rev2. The global MIDI Out Select (#11, not #12?) simply allows you to choose to send Out via DIN, USB, or both. So that option (MIDI + USB) means the Rev2 splits outgoing data onto two signal flows. That may prove helpful yet, since my Kronos has multiple MIDI in options (DIN and 2 USB).

But I am relieved that the Rev2 does transmit on 2 consecutive MIDI channels. This meshes with the structure I have per cover song where bass is on ch2, and other sounds are on ch3. The catch is that it is only that way per program, not globally. Change the program on the Rev2, and it may end up on a program that is not split.

So I could just make sure the cover song programs I create for the Rev2 adhere to the ch2/ch3 split standard I made. So when my main master Kronos tells everyone, hey next song is X, everyone in the rig calls up their program/combination for song X. I just have to make sure I don't change programs via the Rev2, which makes the Kronos go to unwanted songs. Would be nice if the Rev2 (or Kronos for that matter!) could separately *receive* program changes, but *not transmit* program changes, or vice versa as needed. Dang it, here I go again, getting nostalgic for the X-station's capabilities as MIDI controller.