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Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!

Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« on: September 01, 2018, 01:36:34 AM »
EDIT - Mods, I just realized that I already made a topic for this, a while back. Sorry, spacing out, feel free to merge this topic with the other one.

Folks - I need your help, I am at wits end. Mainly, I am looking for someone, anyone to confirm this behavior. I've been back and forth with DSI a lot, with no official confirmation, except to say its on their list of things to look at.

Basically, what is happening is that when I switch between a layer that has delays or lfos set, to another layer, often the first layer's delays or lfos will become out of sync with what is actually programmed in the machine (i.e., switching from layer A to layer B, layer A's delay will suddenly be audibly at a value different than what the Layer A controls are saying). Switching back to A doesn't resolve the problem. It will happen whether clocked internally, or externally, though it happens much more frequently when clocked externally. It is not consistent in normal usage, which makes it even more frustrating. However, I have done some troubleshooting with a particular set of settings from an init patch that can get the problem to reliably happen every time. The only thing that can resolve this bug is to either a) stop and restart the clock if clocked externally, or b) change to a new patch and back, if clocked internally. I can provide sysex and an audio walkthrough if anyone is inclined to actually test this.  I have only ever seen one other user post a question about the exact same thing, on the old forum with no replies.

Please help. I'm driving me crazy, not being able to confidently simply switch between layers in a live setting.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 01:45:07 AM by Zac Kyoti »

Sloej

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2018, 12:34:38 PM »
You're not crazy.  ;)

I get the same results, with Split or Stack.

I'm surprised that support didn't help. I have no trouble reproducing.

So:
Is this common to all P12s or are ours defective?

dslsynth

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Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2018, 12:45:05 PM »
Anyone tried to connect a MIDI monitoring program to see if the synth sends parameter change messages corresponding to the observed behavior?

Using the most recent OS?
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Sloej

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2018, 02:23:42 PM »
Yes, it's sending midi when delay time is adjusted and those changes show up on the screen, but the changes don't always register in fact: for example, changing a sync'd delay from 1/16 to whole note, or vice versa, makes no audible difference.
Using OS 1.4.2.3 which is latest.

This is intermittent and not clear what produces it.
I can get this behavior after a few 'tries' but not predictably.
Maybe Zac Kyoti will tell us the recipe.


Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2018, 06:26:02 PM »
Sloej, its actually a relief to hear that you are noticing the same thing. But I'm getting lost at the part of the discussion about CCs. I'm not seeing how that would have anything to do with the problem, and its not like I'm routing the P12 CCs back into itself.  I'm saying that upon pressing the edit button, the delay value on the previous layer is changing audibly, but no change actually occurs on the on-screen control (confirmed by going back to the previous layer and looking at the delay value). Are we positive we're talking about the same thing?  I'm not in the studio right now but I'll try and upload my reproduction walkthrough soon.

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2018, 03:30:31 AM »
OK, for anyone that wants to hear this bug in action or try and reproduce, check out the audio file.
Details: In this example, the P12m is in Multimode. It is being clocked externally (E-RM Multiclock), and Layer A is sequenced by an Octatrack (also clocked with Multiclock). Layer B is not sequenced. There are no offsets on the Multiclock. Layer A was the init patch with ADSR dialed to a short sound, and Delay 1 set to synced dotted eighths with a little feedback. Layer B was the unaltered init patch, but you never hear it in this demo anyway, it doesn't really matter. This issue will also occur when not in multimode, but its way more inconsistent.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 03:59:55 AM by Zac Kyoti »

Sloej

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2018, 11:07:33 AM »
Sorry about that . Let's see if I can clear this up.


First: I can confirm what you're asking about: switching to editing the other layer causes delay time to change. I used a sync'd delay on layer A and its tempo doubles when I switch to editing layer B. I used your setup more or less: P12 slaved to external midi clock and with Multimode On. (No external sequencing in my case.) So I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing.

Second, in response to dslsynth's post: (which I initially misunderstood):
No, the P12 does not send midi reflecting this unwanted change.
(I connected P12 to a laptop and opened MidiMonitor.)


The rest is for another time perhaps, and I add it in case I myself forget! ;)
Yesterday I was seeing behavior (which I didn't check for today) that I thought was what you, ZK, meant by "The only thing that can resolve this bug is to either a) stop and restart the clock if clocked externally, or b) change to a new patch and back, if clocked internally." When I went back to layer A, I couldn't get the now-unwanted delay time to return to its earlier setting onscreen settings updated but sound didn't (and P12 was sending midi in those cases.) I assumed you had had the same experience. My mistake.

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2018, 06:38:12 PM »
Sloej- awesome, thanks. I consider that a confirmation. Have you sent a bug report or support request? I think your question (is it just us, or are all P12s affected), is a good question to ask. So far, I know of only four users, including myself, who have confirmed this bug. I'd really like to hear from more people, and I'm surprised I haven't. i'd think that a bug that has huge potential to f-up live sets would get more attention from DSI. Especially since it's midi-related, and DSI is supposed to be the master of all things midi. I just really hope DSI is listening. I know the P12 os is considered "mature", but it doesn't take much to see why this bug would warrant cracking the code open again. I literally never switch layers in live sets unless I know for a fact that I don't have delays or other synced modulation in that patch. Everything else gets sampled ahead of time, which sucks. I'd rather actually use the synth.

BTW - the only common denominator that I have seen among users who have confirmed this bug is an external midi clock. However, I would think that using some sort of external clock would actually be the most common use-case. Out of curiosity, which external clock did you use when you confirmed this?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 06:44:02 PM by Zac Kyoti »

Sloej

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 06:27:28 PM »
I haven't yet contacted support but will do that soon.

I've tried three different midi clocks and get the same results (none from a daw).

May I ask what you meant by "The only thing that can resolve this bug is to either a) stop and restart the clock if clocked externally, or b) change to a new patch and back, if clocked internally"? Have you tried readjusting the delay time in the original layer? Does this not work for you?

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 12:14:17 AM »
Sorry Sloej, I realized that when I wrote the original post I didn't correctly recall my testing, which I did a few months ago. To clarify - I can only confirm the bug occurs when slaving the P12 to external clock. I was actually thinking of multimode ON (more consistent), vs multi mode OFF (less consistent), when I wrote the post. Sorry about the confusion. Resolving the audible value vs display value mismatch can be resolved by either stopping and restarting the clock, or switching to a new patch and back. I'm not sure if it can be resolved by re-dialing the correct delay value, I'd need to test that.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:18:34 AM by Zac Kyoti »

dslsynth

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Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2018, 12:48:37 AM »
I remember previous talk about a problem causing program parameter mangling and it turned out to be a display interrupt messing up the current values. Wonder if this could be a related issue from a different subsystem?

Also, is this problem observed on both the keyboard and module versions or only on one of them?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:50:47 AM by dslsynth »
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Sloej

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2018, 04:27:29 AM »
I appreciate your involvement, dslsynth.

Zac Kyoti seems to be using the module:
In this example, the P12m is in Multimode.
And I'm using the P12 keyboard.


Have you tested for this problem on a P12 and not had the same results ?

dslsynth

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Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2018, 06:41:15 AM »
Have you tested for this problem on a P12 and not had the same results ?

Sad fact is that I don't have a P12 (unfortunately). So my comments are simply on the general technical front. But I do have other DSI gear.

Which leads to my next point: Have the MIDI stream sequencing P12 been checked with a MIDI monitoring program to see what MIDI messages are being sent other than notes and timing messages? One can check that by sequencing via MIDI In port and checking what happens on the MIDI Thru port. Requires a USB/MIDI adapter cable while being careful not to let the DAW send received MIDI messages back to the P12 thereby causing a MIDI loop.

It would be nice if the problem can be reproduced using a list of simple steps. Starting from the basic program/patch is very useful in such cases. Check with a number of different conditions such as with/without external clock and with/without multi-mode to see what conditions triggers the observed problem.
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Sloej

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2018, 10:51:49 AM »
Good thought about other midi messages.
Of course I can speak only for myself.
I wasn't sequencing the P12, only sending midi clock.
And one of the clocks I tried came from a modular that isn't capable of generating any midi other than clock. So I don't think errant midi messages are the problem, at least in my case.

As for reproducing the 'bug' (?), I find that ZK's instructions reliably produce the problem. It does occur in other circumstances, but only intermittently afaict.

Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2018, 11:37:12 AM »
Hey Dslsynth, thanks for jumping in.  I do use the P12 module.  I can confirm that I have tested and have not seen any errant messages coming out of the P12 thru. The reproduction steps are dead simple: Slave to External Clock ON, Multimode ON. Initialize a patch. Dial ADSR of Layer A to be a nice short sound. Set Delay 1 of Layer A to Sync, and set the value to dotted eighths. Give the delay enough feedback so that you can hear it fade through the duration of a bar. Start the external clock, loop a bar, and send the P12 a 1/16th note once each bar, to the Layer A midi channel. Switch to Layer B.

This should reproduce the problem reliably. What you will hear is the Layer A delay changing value (you've switched layers to control, but you are still listening to Layer A). What you will see is (after you switch back to Layer A) that even though the delay value now sounds different, the value on the display is exactly where you left it.

When modifying the above test with Multimode OFF, and with identical patches and delay settings on Layers A and B, I can still get the bug to occur, but it is much more inconsistent - the edit layer button may need to be pressed a number of times.

I should note that the issue also affects LFOs and all other periodic synced modulations on the P12  :(

dslsynth

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Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2018, 01:36:34 PM »
Hi Zac Kyoti, to me it sounds like you guys are ready to write up the problem report and send it to their support line. Be sure to mention this thread and also mention the other areas besides the delays that are messed up with described recipe for problem demonstration. Then send it off to support line. All we can hope for is that they can find time to fix this problem eventually.
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Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2018, 03:47:50 PM »
Thanks Dslsynth. I did submit to support, about one year ago, and just checked in with them again last week.  Here's what I don't get:

1) This bug seems super-critical to me. It is a complete showstopper, since simply grabbing a layer to edit can completely mess up your sound, often in a displeasing way. The user should be able to tweak any layer, without fear of messing up the layer they are not tweaking. Why isn't this getting more attention?

2) I would think that clock slaving the P12 would be really common. Like, really, really common. If it's common, I again ask why DSI doesn't care more, and more users aren't noticing this issue. It makes me wonder, like Sloej, if only a limited number of units have the issue. Somehow I doubt that. Regardless, the issue crops up in every single practice session for me, and I have completely given up on switching between layers on the hardware during a live session. Too risky, so I only live-edit one layer, and everything else is pre-sampled.

Sorry about the rant, I just feel like something isn't adding up here, and maybe I'm missing something. I mean, this bug changes the sound of the synth based on UI navigation alone. It is absolutely clock-related.  Seems like a big deal, so what gives?

dslsynth

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Re: Select layer messes up delays and lfos - need your help!
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2018, 01:46:20 AM »
Agree that this is a significant bug. What did support tell you? If they can find time to fix this bug then it will probably not happen right away.
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