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[NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)

[NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« on: August 19, 2018, 01:42:44 AM »
Hey guys :)

I need your help here, as I can't test this in a music store and it'll be the main criteria for me to burn those $4000 for what seems to be a really unique instrument.

A little bit of context : I'm a composer from france, playing "dark pop" songs. I'm playing a lot of shows and I'm actually double stacking a Prophet 6 on the top and a Nord Electro 5D on the bottom for piano parts. Piano parts are about 15% of what I play live, and so I was thinking about selling the Nord, having one less flight case to carry around and since I play sitting down, have my shoulders relive again without having to switch their heights and play the prophet really high.

Now to the question : Ableton Live via Max For Live is sending program change messages to my P6 cause I sing at the same time and I can't change presets fast enough when it goes from verse to chorus let's say. It's flawless right now, the P6 being analog.

The thing is, I want to know if the Prophet X handles well program changes. Since there are samples, I want to know if there is any latency when you switch presets? I can't have any cause sometimes I just have a 20ms window to change presets and be ready for the next part of the song.

TLDR : does the PX have latency when switching presets? Are they ready to play the millisecond you dial them? Does it work the same with MIDI program changes? Cause if yes, I'm selling my nord, keeping my P6 at home and bringing the PX live with my band.

THANKS in advance, and sorry for any grammar issues since I'm not a native speaker.

Mathieu

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2018, 05:44:23 AM »
Hey guys :)

I need your help here, as I can't test this in a music store and it'll be the main criteria for me to burn those $4000 for what seems to be a really unique instrument.

A little bit of context : I'm a composer from france, playing "dark pop" songs. I'm playing a lot of shows and I'm actually double stacking a Prophet 6 on the top and a Nord Electro 5D on the bottom for piano parts. Piano parts are about 15% of what I play live, and so I was thinking about selling the Nord, having one less flight case to carry around and since I play sitting down, have my shoulders relive again without having to switch their heights and play the prophet really high.

Now to the question : Ableton Live via Max For Live is sending program change messages to my P6 cause I sing at the same time and I can't change presets fast enough when it goes from verse to chorus let's say. It's flawless right now, the P6 being analog.

The thing is, I want to know if the Prophet X handles well program changes. Since there are samples, I want to know if there is any latency when you switch presets? I can't have any cause sometimes I just have a 20ms window to change presets and be ready for the next part of the song.

TLDR : does the PX have latency when switching presets? Are they ready to play the millisecond you dial them? Does it work the same with MIDI program changes? Cause if yes, I'm selling my nord, keeping my P6 at home and bringing the PX live with my band.

THANKS in advance, and sorry for any grammar issues since I'm not a native speaker.

Mathieu

What is your needed piano polyphony for that 15% as it is not a romper and max voices is 16 when the filters are not in stereo and you sue 16 voice mode. Considerably less than the Nord. Sample side is meant for sound design more than being a traditional sample based romper though it can serve that purpose with the above limitation. Switching between presets is lightning fast. Canít answer the program change question, but it does have a playlist mode that allows you to setup song presets for quick switch straight from the interface. Definitely less than 20ms it seems.

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2018, 06:03:28 AM »
Thank you so much for your answer! :)
I think I'll need to go test it in the shop for the piano playing thing, you're right.
I never really play more than simple chords though (5 fingers), but with the sustain that could be a issue sometimes I guess. Anyone has an input on that? Simple piano playing with the Prophet X?

Thanks again guys, hope to be part of the X community soon.

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2018, 06:51:00 AM »
Thank you so much for your answer! :)
I think I'll need to go test it in the shop for the piano playing thing, you're right.
I never really play more than simple chords though (5 fingers), but with the sustain that could be a issue sometimes I guess. Anyone has an input on that? Simple piano playing with the Prophet X?

Thanks again guys, hope to be part of the X community soon.

One way to test polyphony limitations without the X would be to load up a soft synth and limit yourself to both 8 and 16 voices on that soft synth. Play parts from your songs and see what happens with note stealing. Now the note stealing algorithm will likely be different on the X, but you can get a basic feel on whether it would work for your songs or not live.

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2018, 10:28:23 AM »
Great idea! Doing that right now.

Also one last question if you don't mind, would the synth section (and only this one) would be able to compete with my Prophet 6 live?
Basically I only need Pianos for some songs but I'll play essentially ONLY synths with no use of the samples whatsoever (or maybe to modulate but that's another topic). Is the sound analog-ish or does is it sound digital with the DCOs?

Sleep of Reason

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2018, 11:27:23 AM »
Is the sound analog-ish or does is it sound digital with the DCOs?

DCOs are analog, but digitally controlled. Different from the digital oscillators in the PX, which I've not tried out, but I highly doubt it's going to make much of a difference to a live audience. Most people aren't even aware there's such a thing as VCOs (such as the ones in your P6) or DCOs or digital oscillators, much less distinguish a difference between them. Perhaps you're asking about its overall presence or if it will cut through as well when needed... I'm also betting it would do the job admirably.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 11:59:16 AM by Sleep of Reason »

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2018, 12:04:16 PM »
Is the sound analog-ish or does is it sound digital with the DCOs?

DCOs are analog, but digitally controlled. Different from the digital oscillators in the PX, which I've not tried out, but I highly doubt it's going to make much of a difference to a live audience. Most people aren't even aware there's such a thing as VCOs (such as the ones in your P6) or DCOs or digital oscillators, much less distinguish a difference between them. Perhaps you're asking about its overall presence or if it will cut through as well when needed... I'm also betting it would do the job admirably.

Well if that answer didnt wanna make me buy this synth, nothing would :D
After all these years of GAS and programming, I didnt know DCOs were analog.
Thanks man, appreciate it!

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2018, 04:55:05 PM »
Great idea! Doing that right now.

Also one last question if you don't mind, would the synth section (and only this one) would be able to compete with my Prophet 6 live?
Basically I only need Pianos for some songs but I'll play essentially ONLY synths with no use of the samples whatsoever (or maybe to modulate but that's another topic). Is the sound analog-ish or does is it sound digital with the DCOs?
I think the synth section sounds incredible. I have the Ob-6 myself and of course it sounds different but not in any negative way. Just its own flavor of awesome.

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 05:54:54 AM »
Hey guys

Quick update since I bought the Prophet X in the meantime, hope that could help people wondering the same things as I did earlier.
For simple piano parts like 5 fingers chords moving around, it's great. Arpeggios are ok if you don't mind a not so terrible voice steal.
For synths, well... Bear with me I'm talking about pure synth, no instrument layers added. It's not that great. I mean it's cool and I can reproduce my Prophet 6 sounds and nobody will even hear the difference live, but with a headset it's not so great.
In comparison to the P6, the PX has a real lack of low end, and is really really muddy. The chorus on the P6 is far superior in terms of vintage sounding (think Juno 106). I also feel a latency between the moment I touch a key and the moment OSC1 gives a sound.

Anyhow it's my two cents. I think the PX is a killer live machine, or a killer sound design machine.
For people wanting to do only synth parts, you'll lack something, strength and roundness. For people merging instruments with synths, it's cool.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 05:57:27 AM by cerflaser »

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2018, 09:34:32 AM »
Hey guys

Quick update since I bought the Prophet X in the meantime, hope that could help people wondering the same things as I did earlier.
For simple piano parts like 5 fingers chords moving around, it's great. Arpeggios are ok if you don't mind a not so terrible voice steal.
For synths, well... Bear with me I'm talking about pure synth, no instrument layers added. It's not that great. I mean it's cool and I can reproduce my Prophet 6 sounds and nobody will even hear the difference live, but with a headset it's not so great.
In comparison to the P6, the PX has a real lack of low end, and is really really muddy. The chorus on the P6 is far superior in terms of vintage sounding (think Juno 106). I also feel a latency between the moment I touch a key and the moment OSC1 gives a sound.

Anyhow it's my two cents. I think the PX is a killer live machine, or a killer sound design machine.
For people wanting to do only synth parts, you'll lack something, strength and roundness. For people merging instruments with synths, it's cool.

Merci!  I had many similar questions in my mind about using the PX for a live rig as well as studio use. 

I just got a Rev2 and was a bit surprised how its Curtis filters roll off the low end when sweeping the filter.  I briefly considered trading the Rev2 for the PX instead, especially after I saw a NAMM demonstration of the newly redesigned SSI2144 filter. Also, reading the rave reviews of PX owners here on the forum stoked the GAS.

Instead, I think I'll keep the Rev2.  I'll learn its sweet spots.   Besides, the Matrix 1000 I just received has that thicker vintage sound my nostalgic ears crave, even though it also uses Curtis filters.  As my forum signature shows, I have enough variety for now.

I hope your PX serves you well in your live shows.  And thanks also for performing live synth music in your chosen genre.  Keep the legacy alive!
Moog One <> Prophet Rev2 16Voice <>  Kronos 61 <> Andromeda <> Integra 7 <> Behringer Model D <> Minitaur <> Slim Phatty <> Matrix 1000 <>  Micron <> Privia PX-5S <> Beat Buddy <> Perform VK/VE <> FCB1010

Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2019, 01:53:39 PM »
I have a problem when I sequence my Px with a MPC X
When sending a Program changes in the Px with a sequencer (mpc x) the first note of my sequence does not start, you have to wait for the second note to play!
It did that to me with a Dominion too
It is a big problem and I do not know if it is the PX or the MPC!
On other synth no worries!
Thank you in advance for your advice

blewis

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Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 08:08:32 AM »
I have a problem when I sequence my Px with a MPC X
When sending a Program changes in the Px with a sequencer (mpc x) the first note of my sequence does not start, you have to wait for the second note to play!
It did that to me with a Dominion too
It is a big problem and I do not know if it is the PX or the MPC!
On other synth no worries!
Thank you in advance for your advice

More than likely what is happening is you've set the MPC to send a Program Change on beat 1. The PX takes a small amount of time to load the samples. While it's fast in loading them, it is not instant and there is a clearly audible pause as it loads samples. I'm sure it's longer than 20ms to load the samples. I haven't measured it, but I'm confident it's longer than that from the pause in audio and my experience with guitar effects switchers that suffer a similar pause.

So it simply can't catch up to the Program Change and MIDI note that you've sent it on that first beat.

One option you might try, is to send a Program Change from the previous Sequence at the very end of the previous Sequence. If you're in Song Mode, you'll know what sequence that it. You'll have to insert the Program Change manually in the automation of the MPC, but you may be able to get the PX ready and loaded to receive that first MIDI note.

blewis

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  • 167
Re: [NEED HELP] Speed of program change (latency?)
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 08:11:17 AM »
... and don't forget that as of v2.0 and v2.1 (Latest) versions of the OS, if you press and hold the 16 Voice button, it'll start flashing. A flashing 16 voice button means it's in 32 voice mode. In this mode you're limited to 1 sample oscillator (Instrumet) and one digital oscillator. These 32 voices are play paraphonically through 2 filters in stereo. So if you need more voices go there.

On the previous responses, this feature may not have existed as it was a surprise addition as of v2.0 of the OS.

Hey guys

Quick update since I bought the Prophet X in the meantime, hope that could help people wondering the same things as I did earlier.
For simple piano parts like 5 fingers chords moving around, it's great. Arpeggios are ok if you don't mind a not so terrible voice steal.
For synths, well... Bear with me I'm talking about pure synth, no instrument layers added. It's not that great. I mean it's cool and I can reproduce my Prophet 6 sounds and nobody will even hear the difference live, but with a headset it's not so great.
In comparison to the P6, the PX has a real lack of low end, and is really really muddy. The chorus on the P6 is far superior in terms of vintage sounding (think Juno 106). I also feel a latency between the moment I touch a key and the moment OSC1 gives a sound.

Anyhow it's my two cents. I think the PX is a killer live machine, or a killer sound design machine.
For people wanting to do only synth parts, you'll lack something, strength and roundness. For people merging instruments with synths, it's cool.