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Bug - clicking?

drxcm

Bug - clicking?
« on: August 11, 2018, 10:48:03 AM »
So I’ve been getting a little clicking on long release sounds and figured out how to reproduce it.

Init patch. Sine oscillator. Turn release up for a long release of several seconds. Wave reset on or off.

Play notes. As soon as voice stealing starts to occur, I get loud clicks.

If I stay at 8 voices or less, no clicking, its only when stealing begins.

Is this a bug? Can anyone else reproduce?

drxcm

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2018, 01:34:37 AM »
no one else has this issue?

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2018, 02:57:57 PM »
no one else has this issue?

Haven't been able to try yet. Have you reported to DSi?

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2018, 02:52:00 PM »
I think this was the first issue I noticed that made me unhappy and it's something that I notice consistently unless I turn on [16 Voice]

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 11:51:28 AM »
no one else has this issue?

i noticed this:

when i am holding the sustain pressed in 8 voice mode, when note steals, you will hear a click each time.

Razmo

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Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 12:35:43 PM »
So I’ve been getting a little clicking on long release sounds and figured out how to reproduce it.

Init patch. Sine oscillator. Turn release up for a long release of several seconds. Wave reset on or off.

Play notes. As soon as voice stealing starts to occur, I get loud clicks.

If I stay at 8 voices or less, no clicking, its only when stealing begins.

Is this a bug? Can anyone else reproduce?

this is expected behavior... and the reason is simple: when you reinitialize the same voice again (note stealing), even if the phase of the oscillator is the same, and only the pitch is changed, the Amp envelope would reset to the start (which is louder than the sound from the voice it's stealing)... that means that the amplitudes from the stolen note and the newly triggered one is different... that jump to the new volume happens instantaneously, and that is what gives you that click... it's unavoidable I'd say. If the oscillator also have it's phase reset on a trigger, it would also be out of phase giving a click even if the volume was the same.

You are probaly hearing it even more because you choose a sinewave which is a rather pure tone... even the slightest of abrupt change in a sinewave will be heard as a click.

Now I do not have a PX, and you have not provided an audio example, so I do not know if it's because of other reasons, but it surely sounds like what I explained is the cause...
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Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 02:49:11 PM »
So I’ve been getting a little clicking on long release sounds and figured out how to reproduce it.

Init patch. Sine oscillator. Turn release up for a long release of several seconds. Wave reset on or off.

Play notes. As soon as voice stealing starts to occur, I get loud clicks.

If I stay at 8 voices or less, no clicking, its only when stealing begins.

Is this a bug? Can anyone else reproduce?

this is expected behavior... and the reason is simple: when you reinitialize the same voice again (note stealing), even if the phase of the oscillator is the same, and only the pitch is changed, the Amp envelope would reset to the start (which is louder than the sound from the voice it's stealing)... that means that the amplitudes from the stolen note and the newly triggered one is different... that jump to the new volume happens instantaneously, and that is what gives you that click... it's unavoidable I'd say. If the oscillator also have it's phase reset on a trigger, it would also be out of phase giving a click even if the volume was the same.

You are probaly hearing it even more because you choose a sinewave which is a rather pure tone... even the slightest of abrupt change in a sinewave will be heard as a click.

Now I do not have a PX, and you have not provided an audio example, so I do not know if it's because of other reasons, but it surely sounds like what I explained is the cause...

Great explanation. Thank you.

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2018, 05:22:04 AM »
this is expected behavior... [...] it's unavoidable I'd say.

Actually no, this is a real problem and it's also an easy bug to fix. How to elevate this question to a dev's eyeballs? Is there a bug report system?

Most people who edit audio files are familiar with this artifact. The problem is that the first sound is not terminated correctly (at a zero crossing) before the next one plays. Of course we avoid it by not interrupting a waveform mid z-cycle.

But you may be wondering, with Razmo, how a computer can automatically avoid it. But it's not hard or anything new. In video game audio, for example, you have lots of sound files chopped up and combined on-the-fly. (Speech and SFX files interrupting each other, etc.). Novice video-game sound programmers often get this very same clipping, and then they learn about it and avoid it. :)

Anyhow, this is not a behavior I myself would expect. I hope it is fixed in an update.

edit: Please note that it also happens in monophonic mode. This makes preset F1P2 Prophet-5 Bass (a major headliner on this machine!) sound basically so bad it's unusable for pro-level recording...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 06:17:24 AM by breslin »

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 01:28:20 PM »
I have attached some audio samples for you. At first I thought it was just digital clipping artifacts, but the Sine example is weird. Maybe it's something else. Please share your thoughts!

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 03:11:02 PM »
You need to open a ticket here. They have posted this on a bunch of threads here where people talk about bugs. Send all this info and your files to the email below.

If you need further assistance, please contact our dedicated support channel: support (at) sequential.com


this is expected behavior... [...] it's unavoidable I'd say.

Actually no, this is a real problem and it's also an easy bug to fix. How to elevate this question to a dev's eyeballs? Is there a bug report system?

Most people who edit audio files are familiar with this artifact. The problem is that the first sound is not terminated correctly (at a zero crossing) before the next one plays. Of course we avoid it by not interrupting a waveform mid z-cycle.

But you may be wondering, with Razmo, how a computer can automatically avoid it. But it's not hard or anything new. In video game audio, for example, you have lots of sound files chopped up and combined on-the-fly. (Speech and SFX files interrupting each other, etc.). Novice video-game sound programmers often get this very same clipping, and then they learn about it and avoid it. :)

Anyhow, this is not a behavior I myself would expect. I hope it is fixed in an update.

edit: Please note that it also happens in monophonic mode. This makes preset F1P2 Prophet-5 Bass (a major headliner on this machine!) sound basically so bad it's unusable for pro-level recording...

drxcm

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2018, 07:47:48 PM »
You need to open a ticket here. They have posted this on a bunch of threads here where people talk about bugs. Send all this info and your files to the email below.

If you need further assistance, please contact our dedicated support channel: support (at) sequential.com


this is expected behavior... [...] it's unavoidable I'd say.

Actually no, this is a real problem and it's also an easy bug to fix. How to elevate this question to a dev's eyeballs? Is there a bug report system?

Most people who edit audio files are familiar with this artifact. The problem is that the first sound is not terminated correctly (at a zero crossing) before the next one plays. Of course we avoid it by not interrupting a waveform mid z-cycle.

But you may be wondering, with Razmo, how a computer can automatically avoid it. But it's not hard or anything new. In video game audio, for example, you have lots of sound files chopped up and combined on-the-fly. (Speech and SFX files interrupting each other, etc.). Novice video-game sound programmers often get this very same clipping, and then they learn about it and avoid it. :)

Anyhow, this is not a behavior I myself would expect. I hope it is fixed in an update.

edit: Please note that it also happens in monophonic mode. This makes preset F1P2 Prophet-5 Bass (a major headliner on this machine!) sound basically so bad it's unusable for pro-level recording...

Done.  Though I've been informed by support that this is 'normal behaviour'

I just discovered a different kind of clicking bug:

Also, I think I just discovered another ‘bug’… also reported.  Keen to know if anyone else has it.

I’m getting some clicks if:
1.   Setup an instrument, set it to loop, bring down the ‘size' to a short repeating segment.
2.   then modulate ‘center’ to ‘scroll though’ the sample (either by hand using the knob, or via any mod source)
3.   if center is scrolling forwards in time through the sample - no clicks, however if center is scrolling backwards in time through the sample - clicks.


Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2018, 08:46:58 AM »
The clicking was something I noticed within a few minutes of playing the Prophet X. I get it thru most patches, it's worse thru the headphone outs.

Creating  piano (or using a preset) patch and playing a single note will introduce random clicking that varies in loudness. It's present in very many of the patches.

Using a sustain pedal with no matter now many voices will constantly click which essentially makes this unusable for me especially as a flag ship/premium priced instrument.

I contacted Sequential and they suggested I try the 1.21 beta available on this forum. It did not help the issue, in fact I encountered my first crash and random patch switching.

I get the voice stealing and it's limitations but playing a single legato note should not have this awful clicking/popping sound.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that this indeed happens in 16 voice mono mode.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 08:58:24 AM by anewmodel »

Re: Bug - clicking?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 08:30:18 AM »
Here is a recording of OSC1 Sine with the issue. I can post more examples if necessary of actual patches doing this.