The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

FM

Re: FM
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2018, 02:36:49 AM »
Do you know what if any synths provide good examples of each?  I'm assuming the P12 would not be doing + only, and +/- also seems problematic if it's creating "upward bumps", but then if that means it's doing log/exp +/-, Dave would have needed to somehow introduce the log function for mod intensity?

It's a bit difficult to exactly tell what synth uses what type of linear FM, since that sort of information is never disclosed in any manual. In most cases, you'll only find wordings like "DX7-like FM," which is often a bit misleading and handles the whole feature more like an add-on gimmick. I believe the Jupiters 6 and 8 made use of + linear FM, while the majority of synths make use of +/- linear FM, especially ones with a VA engine like the Blofeld for example. The Access Virus on the other hand makes use of log +/- linear FM. Those are a few I know of through similar discussions or articles.

As for the Prophet 12 or Pro 2 (I can only speak as a Pro 2 owner): I would identify it as +/- linear FM as it clearly lacks the more clangorous outcomes that do occur with + linear FM, albeit I can't identify any inverted lower freqency modulations, no matter how much extra mod slots I use to increase the modulation depth. So either the whole applied modulation is shifted to the positive side, or one can't perceive it well enough because even at their lowest frequency settings the oscillators are still running very fast. It does, however, not seem to be a logarithmic version of linear FM because in some cases the applied modulation appears to be a bit weaker in the upper registers. The latter is no huge deal, though, as one can utilize the mod source Note Number as a corrective.

Re: FM
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2018, 04:18:33 PM »
Anyone seen this? Kind of makes me wonder why Yamaha canít do a new full size DX.

https://youtu.be/jb5SQtUiEVU
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, Origin Effects Cali76 and SlideRig compressor, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.

Re: FM
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2018, 09:22:12 PM »
It certainly is feasible.  When I program my DX-7, I usually use the fm-alive software control surface.  One page has all six operators with all the parameters available without menu diving.  Very user friendly.  It's not perfect and could use a lot of development, but the basic idea is far and away the best I've seen for a DX.   Here is link to fm-alive where the screen is shown. http://www.fm-alive.com/pages/DXM.aspx  It's the pic under the subtitle "Real-Time Visual Patch Editing".  All of the envelopes can be controlled by a mouse or keyboard.

I also learned from the software that DX - FM is easily programmable if the right surface is used.   So there is no reason why Yamaha cannot do something with a controller surface for a new DX type synth.

I do think the best combination will be knobs with a screen.  The envelopes need to be on a screen together so you can see the interrelationship  This interrelationship is far more critical in the DX style FM than it is for analog.  Having all the envelopes on one screen is the strong point of the fm-alive software.   The size of the screen necessary to do this would probably not be feasible within the instrument itself.  So, the synth would need an HDMI output to add a computer screen.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: FM
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 09:41:30 PM »
Anyone seen this? Kind of makes me wonder why Yamaha canít do a new full size DX.

The Montage is probably that instrument.  I just broke down and bought a Montage 8.  My S-90 is on it last legs and I needed a really good piano-like keybed.  The FM in the Montage has always intrigued me.   It's my first evening with the Montage and the FM is really deep.  The controls are reasonable with the incorporated touchpad.  I've barely scratched the surface but I can see that there are more modulation capabilities than the DX and will be able get into some really great FM areas.

BTW, I bought my first DX-7 in 1983 and paid about $1500 for it.  In today's dollars, that's probably over three grand.  You can get a Montage 6 for about $2000 for a floor model at Guitar Center. 
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: FM
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2018, 09:28:21 AM »
Anyone seen this? Kind of makes me wonder why Yamaha canít do a new full size DX.

The Montage is probably that instrument.  I just broke down and bought a Montage 8.  My S-90 is on it last legs and I needed a really good piano-like keybed.  The FM in the Montage has always intrigued me.   It's my first evening with the Montage and the FM is really deep.  The controls are reasonable with the incorporated touchpad.  I've barely scratched the surface but I can see that there are more modulation capabilities than the DX and will be able get into some really great FM areas.

BTW, I bought my first DX-7 in 1983 and paid about $1500 for it.  In today's dollars, that's probably over three grand.  You can get a Montage 6 for about $2000 for a floor model at Guitar Center.

In Canada, a Montage 6 is about $4K
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, Origin Effects Cali76 and SlideRig compressor, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.

Re: FM
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2018, 01:32:11 AM »

In Canada, a Montage 6 is about $4K

Here's what we are seeing in the states https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/?Ntt=montage&Ns=r .   Given the current exchange rate, a $2000 Montage 6 would be about $2700 canadian.  So that is a little painful. 

BTW, GC's used gear is often floor models they don't feel comfortable selling as new.  Mine was built not earlier than July and had all the latest firmware updates.  Yamaha accepted my warranty registration too.  One little scratch in an hardly noticeable area.  Otherwise, perfect shape.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: FM
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2018, 12:28:42 PM »
It certainly is feasible.  When I program my DX-7, I usually use the fm-alive software control surface.  One page has all six operators with all the parameters available without menu diving.  Very user friendly.  It's not perfect and could use a lot of development, but the basic idea is far and away the best I've seen for a DX.   Here is link to fm-alive where the screen is shown. http://www.fm-alive.com/pages/DXM.aspx  It's the pic under the subtitle "Real-Time Visual Patch Editing".  All of the envelopes can be controlled by a mouse or keyboard.

I also learned from the software that DX - FM is easily programmable if the right surface is used.   So there is no reason why Yamaha cannot do something with a controller surface for a new DX type synth.

I do think the best combination will be knobs with a screen.  The envelopes need to be on a screen together so you can see the interrelationship  This interrelationship is far more critical in the DX style FM than it is for analog.  Having all the envelopes on one screen is the strong point of the fm-alive software.   The size of the screen necessary to do this would probably not be feasible within the instrument itself.  So, the synth would need an HDMI output to add a computer screen.

If you like fm-alive, check this out:  https://coffeeshopped.com/patch-base/editor/yamaha-dx7


Re: FM
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2018, 12:30:20 PM »

In Canada, a Montage 6 is about $4K

Here's what we are seeing in the states https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/?Ntt=montage&Ns=r .   Given the current exchange rate, a $2000 Montage 6 would be about $2700 canadian.  So that is a little painful. 

BTW, GC's used gear is often floor models they don't feel comfortable selling as new.  Mine was built not earlier than July and had all the latest firmware updates.  Yamaha accepted my warranty registration too.  One little scratch in an hardly noticeable area.  Otherwise, perfect shape.

The MODX6, 7 and 8 are like the modern DX7s.  Cut down from the Montage, including the weight and price.  :)

Re: FM
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2018, 08:16:21 PM »
If i didn't get such a screaming deal on the Montage, I would be looking at the MODX.  Does it have that same FM programming capabilities as the Montage?

I'm guessing that it doesn't have the same 88 note keybed as the Montage, but if it did, it would be a really amazing keyboard.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

Re: FM
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2018, 08:31:06 PM »
If i didn't get such a screaming deal on the Montage, I would be looking at the MODX.  Does it have that same FM programming capabilities as the Montage?

I'm guessing that it doesn't have the same 88 note keybed as the Montage, but if it did, it would be a really amazing keyboard.

The MODX comes on an 88 note keybed. Itís less powerful than the Montage but itís decent for the price.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, Origin Effects Cali76 and SlideRig compressor, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.

Re: FM
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2018, 09:23:18 PM »
I did some research and the 88 note keybed is different between the Montage and MODX.  Cheaper design in the MODX.  What I appreciate on the Montage keybed is how much it feels like a really good piano action and is very controllable.  Haven't tried the MODX yet, but that difference would have probably swayed me to the Montage.  It won't go on gigs.  So weight is not a factor either for me.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Sonar DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.