The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...

Razmo

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The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« on: August 05, 2018, 09:05:22 AM »
I'm writing this topic because I find that the FX is one of the aspects of the REV2 that really sets it apart from the Prophet 8, and what really lets you create a lot more variety in the sound... many see it just as a mediocre "extra", but if you really know how to use them, and how they work, you can get a much more polished sound "out of the box".

Many complain about the Reverb... while it's still not the best, and lacks a lot to be desired, I still find that it's well for giving just that touch of ambience out of the box, which would otherwise make the sound dull and dry sounding... it has the two most crucial parameters for my use: Decay and a filter that may take either low or high end out of the signal which is crucial to make the verb non-obtrusive and not take over the whole spectrum.

This is also why I'm writing this topic... because i really feel that the manual is missing a lot of information on the FX... there are no signal flow diagrams that show you how the FX is routed internally, which is a shame because some of the effects are actually rather useful, and a few has had me go "aha!" when I figured out how they really work.

An example is the stereo delay... i bet most would think of this delay as a simple stereo delay that just replicate what comes in, in stereo... this is not the case... what is not evident from the manual is, that it is actually cross sending the feedback internally... if you have a sound entering on the far left, the first echo will be on the far right... this will then echo on the opposite side again, in effect making it a pingpong delay, but one that pingpongs according to where in the stereo field you're located... so if your sound is playing midway in between the center and the left side, then the echo will be midway on the right side... now imagine this combined with the infamous DSI Pan Spread parameter... this spread can set each new voice to a different pan position... this combined with the stereo delay gives you a VERY PLEASANT stereo perspective... with a bit of a long regeneration of the delays, and long release times in the sound itself, you get wonderful pad sounds for Ambient music, without even using a Reverb... I use this effect the most of all the effects... the two other delays that are mono I rarely ever use, and have yet to find a good use for them.

Another FX I use a lot is the Ring Modulator... this is well documented in the manual as to what it does, but it do have a second use that some may not recognise, and it also seems to have some stereo perspective when the keyfollow mode is NOT engaged... this is not mentioned in the manual, and the same goes for some of the Phasers and Flangers that also seem to have build in stereo widening... something that again is not mentioned in the manual... I often use the Ringmodulator on bell sounds, even though it's monophonic, and the sound is playing polyphonically... it will allways use the lowest note as reference tone for the modulator oscillator when in keyfollow mode, and it will give some really varied and organic tones when you play as the lowest note changes... but the Ringmod can also function as a crude Tremolo effect... just set the keytracking to "off", and set the modulator frequency all the way down... the first few values are slow enough that the effect becomes a volume modulator... or tremolo... and this is NOT the same as just modulating the volume via an LFO in the sound itself since that will be "per voice"... the Ringmodulation FX is like a real tremolo in this sense, modulating all the voices at the same time... just like a real tremolo effect.

One thing I'd like for DSI to create, is a signal flow diagram of all the FX, so that one can get a clear idea of how these FX is really working... you can guess most of it yourself, but I'd still like to see some diagrams.

I also often use the reverb 100% wet as this gives pad sounds a very different character... smooth and wide, and in some cases it helps making things sound more ensemble-like... sounding like the original sound is coming from a distance... like it's placed inside a space... this can make simple waveforms sound almost orchestral or even choir like.

Other tricks is to seriously get into creative thinking with the ModMatrix... the FX can be controlled from there, and changing certain FX with LFO's, Envelopes etc. can yield lots of unique sounds where the FX itself is deeply integrated into the sound design in a way you'd not be able to with an external FX unit... experimentation is the key here.

If anyone have some tips and tricks they use with the FX engine, feel free to write them here... :)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 09:49:24 AM by Razmo »
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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2018, 09:30:34 AM »
Very helpful. I tend to ignore the effects all together but there is use for it. I do like the hi phaser, the chorus and the stereo delay.
I'm going to try harder to actually use them.

Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2018, 09:38:44 AM »
Great thread! 

+1 on the ring modulator, having it on board has given me opportunity to coax some interesting timbres, be it key track on or off . . .

Additional details on the FX would be welcome; the more we understand whatís under the hood, the better.

Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2018, 12:37:40 PM »
I like to use a seperate effect source like my pc or a seperate unit for things like reverb and delay, but in the absence of any real EQ or Compression on the Rev 2 I have been doing one of the following:

distortion, like all the effects, is not per voice, but the gain gives a pretty transparent boost and some low end between 1-75% before it becomes super distorted.  the tone parameter is also a great modulation destination for key tracking or subtle/slow triangle waveform lfo.

the high pass filter effect is also a great way to add some low end by setting the filter cutoff to nearly zero and maxing the resonance frequency.  used carefully it can be used to shelve some of the muddier low end frequencies while boosting the lower middle ones. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2018, 12:41:14 PM by Montyrivers »

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 09:45:50 AM »
Great thread!

I have also been very impressed by the stereo delay, the way it works and the results. I like to use pan as a destination in the mod matrix with it (fixed mode), especially on sequences and arps, with a synced random lfo as source for example, panning each sequenced note to different positions in the stereo field, the way the delay works really shines there. Now add another lfo just drifting each tone a little... The stereo delay really complements the standard pan spread parameter as well, like Razmo said.

I actually haven't used the Ring Mod much, will have to try it some more... The HPF is also great, and as all the mod parameters for the LPF are available through the mod matrix as well, you could easily make a BPF with the two, modulating them the same way (or differently), HPF is a great sound shaping tool to have within the synth and mod matrix.

I wasn't very impressed, at first, by the internal FX. But when thinking of/using it in the modulation matrix, the more I've done so, has made me realize it's potential. Now I feel that this is a major feature that really sets it apart. I use it not as a regular FX so much, but more as a sound shaping tool with the matrix. When doing so, the sort of "coldness" it has, which is what made me not like it so much as a regular FX in the first place, really suites the purpose of shaping sound. Add whatever regular FX you like off-board, and think of the internal FX as something else... It has lots of potential.

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Razmo

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2018, 10:47:06 AM »
Great thread!

I have also been very impressed by the stereo delay, the way it works and the results. I like to use pan as a destination in the mod matrix with it (fixed mode), especially on sequences and arps, with a synced random lfo as source for example, panning each sequenced note to different positions in the stereo field, the way the delay works really shines there. Now add another lfo just drifting each tone a little... The stereo delay really complements the standard pan spread parameter as well, like Razmo said.

I actually haven't used the Ring Mod much, will have to try it some more... The HPF is also great, and as all the mod parameters for the LPF are available through the mod matrix as well, you could easily make a BPF with the two, modulating them the same way (or differently), HPF is a great sound shaping tool to have within the synth and mod matrix.

I wasn't very impressed, at first, by the internal FX. But when thinking of/using it in the modulation matrix, the more I've done so, has made me realize it's potential. Now I feel that this is a major feature that really sets it apart. I use it not as a regular FX so much, but more as a sound shaping tool with the matrix. When doing so, the sort of "coldness" it has, which is what made me not like it so much as a regular FX in the first place, really suites the purpose of shaping sound. Add whatever regular FX you like off-board, and think of the internal FX as something else... It has lots of potential.

Yeah, that's basically what I realized myself after experimenting with the FX for some time... the HiPass filter in relation to a BandPass I've thought about as well, but it'll only really work as intended if you go monophonic... but sometimes, the more interresting sounds come from the fact that you are using the FX monophonically, but playing polyphonically into them... like a kind of "paraphonic FX" type of thing.

Sometimes I wish DSI could put in more FX, but they unfortunately said that this is not possible... I'd have liked to be able to control the phasers and flangers manually as well, instead of using the build in LFO of these FX... that way i could have routed other modulators to them... creating randomness in the phasers and flangers or other things... a stepped and quantized phaser actually sound nice (had it in the V-Synth).
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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2018, 03:23:08 PM »
Quality thread.

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2018, 03:36:15 PM »
One thing I've wanted to know for some time is, what value (mod matrix amount) I'd have to use with the HiPass filter FX, if I was to route "Note Value" to the HiPass cutoff parameter... so that I can have both the Lowpass filter and the hipassfilter follow each other via the keys.... with the Key Amount of the filter it's 64, but I'm uncertain what the value would be with the HiPass filter FX... guess I'll have to do some experimentation on that...
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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2018, 03:47:37 PM »
Here are some things I like to use.


2 FX Per Patch:
Copy Layer A to B. Add effect 1 (e.g. phaser) to Layer A and effect 2 (e.g. reverb) to Layer B. Adjust depth and layer level to taste. Layer B's delay can even be almost 100% wet for a lush effect.

Step Flanger or Phaser:
Set gated sequencer destination to the FX param, fiddle with step values and length till you get the sound you want.

Sudden Delay:
Choose a delay effect, set mix low or off. In the mod matrix route velocity to FX mix. Now every time you hit a key hard the delay comes through.

Dub Delay:
On a short decay patch with delay as the effect, set the feedback long but mix off. Now sequence some notes in the gated sequencer in seq 1 and in seq 2 choose fx mix as the destination. Now choose just a couple of steps to bring up the mix for a King Tubby vibe. If seq 2 has an odd number of steps it adds to the trippiness.


Razmo

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2018, 04:02:55 PM »
Here are some things I like to use.


2 FX Per Patch:
Copy Layer A to B. Add effect 1 (e.g. phaser) to Layer A and effect 2 (e.g. reverb) to Layer B. Adjust depth and layer level to taste. Layer B's delay can even be almost 100% wet for a lush effect.

Step Flanger or Phaser:
Set gated sequencer destination to the FX param, fiddle with step values and length till you get the sound you want.

Sudden Delay:
Choose a delay effect, set mix low or off. In the mod matrix route velocity to FX mix. Now every time you hit a key hard the delay comes through.

Dub Delay:
On a short decay patch with delay as the effect, set the feedback long but mix off. Now sequence some notes in the gated sequencer in seq 1 and in seq 2 choose fx mix as the destination. Now choose just a couple of steps to bring up the mix for a King Tubby vibe. If seq 2 has an odd number of steps it adds to the trippiness.

That's some cool tips I'd try out at some point...

I also use that trick where I copy Layber A to B, then choose a delay for Layer B, and set the FX Mix parameter to 100%... this is the same as having two FX on the same program... the mix of the layer B (which is now only the wet sound of the delay) can then be controlled via layer B's volume parameter ... but I do not use this trick to get two FX on the same sound... instead I use it to create more advanced delay effects, simply because you can change layer B's parameters completely to your taste... change the attack of the Amp envelope to get soft repeats, lower the cutoff for darker repeats... hell, you could modulate the timbre in so many ways and get completely weird delays out of it if you wanted to... I use it often to transpose layer B an octave up or down so that the repeats play higher or lower.

Sometimes i also use the distortion FX to raise the volume level of certain sounds, if I do not use the FX slot for something else... I often find that some sounds simply cannot get very loud to compare with other programs, and in these cases you can often boost the volume by using the distortion 100% wet and then crank up the drive parameter to the desired level, or just below the treshold where saturation gets too violent.

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2018, 06:54:49 PM »
Here are some things I like to use.


2 FX Per Patch:
Copy Layer A to B. Add effect 1 (e.g. phaser) to Layer A and effect 2 (e.g. reverb) to Layer B. Adjust depth and layer level to taste. Layer B's delay can even be almost 100% wet for a lush effect.

Step Flanger or Phaser:
Set gated sequencer destination to the FX param, fiddle with step values and length till you get the sound you want.

Sudden Delay:
Choose a delay effect, set mix low or off. In the mod matrix route velocity to FX mix. Now every time you hit a key hard the delay comes through.

Dub Delay:
On a short decay patch with delay as the effect, set the feedback long but mix off. Now sequence some notes in the gated sequencer in seq 1 and in seq 2 choose fx mix as the destination. Now choose just a couple of steps to bring up the mix for a King Tubby vibe. If seq 2 has an odd number of steps it adds to the trippiness.

That's some cool tips I'd try out at some point...

I also use that trick where I copy Layber A to B, then choose a delay for Layer B, and set the FX Mix parameter to 100%... this is the same as having two FX on the same program... the mix of the layer B (which is now only the wet sound of the delay) can then be controlled via layer B's volume parameter ... but I do not use this trick to get two FX on the same sound... instead I use it to create more advanced delay effects, simply because you can change layer B's parameters completely to your taste... change the attack of the Amp envelope to get soft repeats, lower the cutoff for darker repeats... hell, you could modulate the timbre in so many ways and get completely weird delays out of it if you wanted to... I use it often to transpose layer B an octave up or down so that the repeats play higher or lower.

Sometimes i also use the distortion FX to raise the volume level of certain sounds, if I do not use the FX slot for something else... I often find that some sounds simply cannot get very loud to compare with other programs, and in these cases you can often boost the volume by using the distortion 100% wet and then crank up the drive parameter to the desired level, or just below the treshold where saturation gets too violent.
On low levels of distortion there's a bit of compression too, which can come in handy. It can also add some girth to some patches--a bit of that sound of a hot analog preamp.

I'll have to try that octave up trick.

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2018, 11:42:42 PM »
This is all great stuff. I can see me losing a whole weekend at least playing about with all of this :)
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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2018, 02:18:54 AM »
King Tubby for the win!!   8)
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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2018, 07:27:06 PM »
Came across these tips on Gearslutz and found them really interesting:

With Ring Mod on and tuning set all the way down to 0 or 1, you can get some really nice tremolo effects. In conjunction with the mix knob it adds a little something extra that's different from only modulating the Amplifier or Panning settings. Also, turning Keytracking on makes the speed of the trem vary depending on the lowest note played. This makes for a very dynamic and inspiring effect!

Distortion effect with the Mix fully wet, Gain set to around 150 (dependent upon the overall volume of the patch) and the tone control to taste. I prefer to keep it around the middle of the control's range. This adds a nice thickness to just about any patch you throw at it. The tone control gives you some options for making things a bit more warm and soft, or a little brighter. You'll want to keep the gain knob low enough so that it doesn't actually introduce any obvious distortion when you play multiple notes. Sometimes 140 is more appropriate.
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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2018, 07:56:16 PM »
Something I just discovered tonight...

Step Phaser and Flanger:
Turn FX Parameter 1 (Rate) OFF on either Flanger 1, Phaser Hi, or Phaser Lo. Set Mix and FX Parameter 2 to about 50%. Now route an LFO to Parameter 1, set amount to at least 50%, and sync to MIDI and set to 1 step. Now you have a cool synced step phaser or flanger. Switch to Parameter 2 and set to 32 steps and now you have a cool synced sweep.

I'm not sure why LFOing FX1 steps on those 3 but not the other flanger and phaser but it sounds cool!


Some more uses of delay...


Mono Delay Spread:
The BBD delay is centered, which can be leveraged for a widening effect on stereo patches. Copy/paste layer A to B with some detune, pan one left and the other right, and add BBD delay for thick voices spread across the stereo spectrum with slight variations.

Three Layers:
Do the same as above and set the delay super short with no repeats and the center becomes like a third stacked layer!

Runaway Delay:
Route Mod Wheel to Feedback at 127 and in the Mod Matrix route it to FX 1 (Delay Time). Now you can do those runaway delay bursts a la Radiohead with just one nudge of the wheel. No self-oscillation (AFAIK) but still some cool sounds to be had.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 07:58:54 PM by guyaguy »

Razmo

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2018, 02:12:01 AM »
By the way... using the layer B as an advanced delay FX as I wrote about earlier can be used with the reverb as well... just set the reverb mix level to 100%, and then change the character of the reverb by changing a copy of the sound from layer A... it has a greater impact than you would imagine...

Here is a short example of a program I did with the reverb on layer B... the sound on layer B was changed into an inharmonic version of the one in layer A... this gives the reverb a distinct metallic tone that takes you right back to the days of the Roland D-50 :)

http://razmo.ziphoid.com/KaraTurNights.mp3

If you're creating bell sounds, you can alo use the delay parameter of the AMP envelope in layer B to offset the start of the reverb a bit, and if you mix a bit of the original sound in with it, also the tone itself... that gives a nice short "blip" at the start of the sound which sounds good with many bell sounds.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 02:16:25 AM by Razmo »
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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2018, 02:20:57 AM »
Something I just discovered tonight...

Step Phaser and Flanger:
Turn FX Parameter 1 (Rate) OFF on either Flanger 1, Phaser Hi, or Phaser Lo. Set Mix and FX Parameter 2 to about 50%. Now route an LFO to Parameter 1, set amount to at least 50%, and sync to MIDI and set to 1 step. Now you have a cool synced step phaser or flanger. Switch to Parameter 2 and set to 32 steps and now you have a cool synced sweep.

I'm not sure why LFOing FX1 steps on those 3 but not the other flanger and phaser but it sounds cool!


Some more uses of delay...


Mono Delay Spread:
The BBD delay is centered, which can be leveraged for a widening effect on stereo patches. Copy/paste layer A to B with some detune, pan one left and the other right, and add BBD delay for thick voices spread across the stereo spectrum with slight variations.

Three Layers:
Do the same as above and set the delay super short with no repeats and the center becomes like a third stacked layer!

Runaway Delay:
Route Mod Wheel to Feedback at 127 and in the Mod Matrix route it to FX 1 (Delay Time). Now you can do those runaway delay bursts a la Radiohead with just one nudge of the wheel. No self-oscillation (AFAIK) but still some cool sounds to be had.

The LFO's of the phasers and flangers are turned off by setting them to zero!? ... that is again an example of unknown functionality of the FX then... that gives a lot of modulation possibilities if that really is the case... must look into that.
If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2018, 04:05:58 PM »
Something I just discovered tonight...

Step Phaser and Flanger:
Turn FX Parameter 1 (Rate) OFF on either Flanger 1, Phaser Hi, or Phaser Lo. Set Mix and FX Parameter 2 to about 50%. Now route an LFO to Parameter 1, set amount to at least 50%, and sync to MIDI and set to 1 step. Now you have a cool synced step phaser or flanger. Switch to Parameter 2 and set to 32 steps and now you have a cool synced sweep.

I'm not sure why LFOing FX1 steps on those 3 but not the other flanger and phaser but it sounds cool!


Some more uses of delay...


Mono Delay Spread:
The BBD delay is centered, which can be leveraged for a widening effect on stereo patches. Copy/paste layer A to B with some detune, pan one left and the other right, and add BBD delay for thick voices spread across the stereo spectrum with slight variations.

Three Layers:
Do the same as above and set the delay super short with no repeats and the center becomes like a third stacked layer!

Runaway Delay:
Route Mod Wheel to Feedback at 127 and in the Mod Matrix route it to FX 1 (Delay Time). Now you can do those runaway delay bursts a la Radiohead with just one nudge of the wheel. No self-oscillation (AFAIK) but still some cool sounds to be had.

The LFO's of the phasers and flangers are turned off by setting them to zero!? ... that is again an example of unknown functionality of the FX then... that gives a lot of modulation possibilities if that really is the case... must look into that.
Actually now that I've had a chance to play with the flanger and phaser again, setting to 0 doesn't turn the LFO modulation off. It's just that it sets it so slow that it's barely perceptible while playing the patches I tried. Maybe that's why it steps on some phasers--because it's resetting the fx LFO?

Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2018, 05:36:36 PM »
I wrote those! Still using both all the time. Really glad to hear you found them useful  :)

Also I like this thread. Lately Iíve been been playing around with sending multiple LFOs to chorus rate and depth for really nice and pseudo-random warbles.

Also discovered that turning reverb mix all the way wet and slowly turning the tone control all the way up makes for a very nice transition/hi-pass fade out sort of thing.

I love how integrated the effects are with the rest of the synth. It really does add a lot to an already wonderful instrument.

Came across these tips on Gearslutz and found them really interesting:

With Ring Mod on and tuning set all the way down to 0 or 1, you can get some really nice tremolo effects. In conjunction with the mix knob it adds a little something extra that's different from only modulating the Amplifier or Panning settings. Also, turning Keytracking on makes the speed of the trem vary depending on the lowest note played. This makes for a very dynamic and inspiring effect!

Distortion effect with the Mix fully wet, Gain set to around 150 (dependent upon the overall volume of the patch) and the tone control to taste. I prefer to keep it around the middle of the control's range. This adds a nice thickness to just about any patch you throw at it. The tone control gives you some options for making things a bit more warm and soft, or a little brighter. You'll want to keep the gain knob low enough so that it doesn't actually introduce any obvious distortion when you play multiple notes. Sometimes 140 is more appropriate.

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Re: The effects of REV2 ... and knowing how to use them...
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2018, 02:05:58 PM »
I like the following chorus settings for poly sounds such as pads.

FX Mix: 60
PARAM 1 (Chorus Rate): 40
PARAM 2 (Chorus Depth): 40

Rate and Depth can be experimented with but personally I find that going over 60 with the FX Mix setting blurs things out too much.