Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine) [SOLVED]

Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine) [SOLVED]
« on: July 17, 2018, 01:12:38 PM »
When I use the Main/A Output, or (2) Cables, everything works as expected.

When I use Main/A Output + B Output, or (4) Cables, sounds jump layers in a cyclic manner and creates a terrible sound rodeo off panning in my headphones, but not as bad with speakers, as in the videos (speakers).

Links to videos (videos that aren't super great, but get the point across) are included below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfMFzOSbthM&t=48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOjPLTfvSAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmbdVspYll4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R_0qixsXpM

I would expect independent stereo Layer A and B Outputs with this setup. What do you all think? Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 10:54:08 AM by extempo »

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 01:24:03 PM »
When I use the Main/A Output, or (2) Cables, everything works as expected.

When I use Main/A Output + B Output, or (4) Cables, sounds jump layers in a cyclic manner and creates a terrible sound rodeo off panning in my headphones, but not as bad with speakers, as in the videos (speakers).

Links to videos (videos that aren't super great, but get the point across) are included below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfMFzOSbthM&t=48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOjPLTfvSAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmbdVspYll4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R_0qixsXpM

I would expect independent stereo Layer A and B Outputs with this setup. What do you all think? Thanks.

It seems you need to use A main left+right or all 4. Just A left and B left gives issues in my case. 

Razmo

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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 01:43:08 PM »
You have to look at the REV2 as two identical synths hardware wise (A Synth & B Synth)... one synth is connected to the A output, the other to the B output... if nothing is connected to the B inputs, then the "two synths" are both output from the A outputs... if you plug anything into the B outputs, then all voices from the "B synth" will ALWAYS be output from the B outputs, even when only one layer is used... when you use only 1 layer, you are in essence daisy chaining the "two synths" playing the same layer program (layer A), but their outputs are still hardwired to the respective outputs (unless you have nothing on the B outputs, then those are mixed in with the main A output.. it's done in hardware with plug sensors on the outputs)...

So if you play a single layer program using only Layer A, but have both A and B outputs connected, then you will have some voices playing on the A outputs and others on the B outputs...

Don't know if what I'm writing is clear, but in general, the B outputs are only really good for Multi Mode or the Stacked/Split mode... think of it as if you had two of the older Prophet 08 synths daisy chained... you would also have two  stereo outputs in that case, and if you play those two for a 16 voice sound, the output would also jump around depending on what synth is triggering the note... you would need a mixer to get around that... or simply unplug the B cables when using a single layer program which does just that; mix the two stereo outputs.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 01:53:54 PM by Razmo »
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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 02:36:45 PM »
You have to look at the REV2 as two identical synths hardware wise (A Synth & B Synth)... one synth is connected to the A output, the other to the B output... if nothing is connected to the B inputs, then the "two synths" are both output from the A outputs... if you plug anything into the B outputs, then all voices from the "B synth" will ALWAYS be output from the B outputs, even when only one layer is used... when you use only 1 layer, you are in essence daisy chaining the "two synths" playing the same layer program (layer A), but their outputs are still hardwired to the respective outputs (unless you have nothing on the B outputs, then those are mixed in with the main A output.. it's done in hardware with plug sensors on the outputs)...

So if you play a single layer program using only Layer A, but have both A and B outputs connected, then you will have some voices playing on the A outputs and others on the B outputs...

Don't know if what I'm writing is clear, but in general, the B outputs are only really good for Multi Mode or the Stacked/Split mode... think of it as if you had two of the older Prophet 08 synths daisy chained... you would also have two  stereo outputs in that case, and if you play those two for a 16 voice sound, the output would also jump around depending on what synth is triggering the note... you would need a mixer to get around that... or simply unplug the B cables when using a single layer program which does just that; mix the two stereo outputs.

It's very clear. I'm trying to do exactly as you say. You're just further confirming what I'm saying. I show in the videos that 2 outputs work as expected. When I plug in 4 cables to separately routed audio busses, they jump all over the place. I know it's painful to watch, but there's about 7 mins of videos basically explaining and demonstrating the problem. I appreciate the  response, but I do understand the basics.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 02:40:33 PM by Billy Meyer »

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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 02:58:31 PM »
Probably best to contact DSI support if you are in doubt.
It's the official way to get them to look at your problem.
They do not systematically scan the forums for potential problems.

I appreciate the  response, but I do understand the basics.
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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 03:03:47 PM »
When I use the Main/A Output, or (2) Cables, everything works as expected.

When I use Main/A Output + B Output, or (4) Cables, sounds jump layers in a cyclic manner and creates a terrible sound rodeo off panning in my headphones, but not as bad with speakers, as in the videos (speakers).

Links to videos (videos that aren't super great, but get the point across) are included below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfMFzOSbthM&t=48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOjPLTfvSAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmbdVspYll4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R_0qixsXpM

I would expect independent stereo Layer A and B Outputs with this setup. What do you all think? Thanks.

It seems you need to use A main left+right or all 4. Just A left and B left gives issues in my case.

In the videos I demonstrate what happens with just 2 and with all 4. I know this seems like the typical newbie problem where someone is trying to use 2 cables and Both outputs, but it's not. I completely understand it's 2 cables in the Main Output or 4 cables across A and B. Again, it's the 4 cables across A & B that are the problem. I'm beginning to think that there is something wrong with just mine as no one else is encountering this. With that being said, everyone is overlooking what I'm saying and chalking it up to the aforementioned.

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 03:13:39 PM »
Probably best to contact DSI support if you are in doubt.
It's the official way to get them to look at your problem.
They do not systematically scan the forums for potential problems.

I appreciate the  response, but I do understand the basics.

I agree. But, the last response from them was that they were out of the office from July 4th through the weekend, which I received on July 11th. I want to get this rolling so I would have support that there is a clear issue here. I originally called when I first got the device back in February. They talked me out of there being a problem, but when you familiarize yourself with the machine for 5 months,  you will start to really understand how it is really supposed to work. I would appreciate any support from any fellow Rev2 owners because I'm getting nowhere quickly with them. I would appreciate anyone just watching video 4, as it is the quickest summary of what is going on here. Thanks!

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 02:13:29 AM »
Probably best to contact DSI support if you are in doubt.
It's the official way to get them to look at your problem.
They do not systematically scan the forums for potential problems.

I appreciate the  response, but I do understand the basics.

I agree. But, the last response from them was that they were out of the office from July 4th through the weekend, which I received on July 11th. I want to get this rolling so I would have support that there is a clear issue here. I originally called when I first got the device back in February. They talked me out of there being a problem, but when you familiarize yourself with the machine for 5 months,  you will start to really understand how it is really supposed to work. I would appreciate any support from any fellow Rev2 owners because I'm getting nowhere quickly with them. I would appreciate anyone just watching video 4, as it is the quickest summary of what is going on here. Thanks!

I've watched all 4 video's.

1. The only problem I have similar is video 1 but only if I only use the left outputs of both layers. I'l try again later.
2. No problem it seems
3. Weird problem. It is like the synth is rotating through the voices and is confused with multi mode.
4. The problem is not prominent on the video

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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 03:46:12 AM »
Hi Billy. I would suggest you switch the Rev2 into multi-mode and address layer A in the base MIDI channel and layer B on the base channel + 1. This works absolutely fine, I have been doing this for the last year.

I don't think, but please correct me if I am wrong, the second set of stereo outputs (B) are designed to be played without multi mode. It is like Razmo tried to point out, the Rev2 is actually two synths. When you address both layers with one MIDI channel there is no way the firmware can figure out what outputs to use.

Although it might look like it can if you (from the player perspective) split the keyboard and assign lower MIDI notes to layer A and higher MIDI notes to layer B from the split point.

The other issue the firmware needs to figure out, when using one MIDI channel, which voices are allocated where. Multi mode solves that conundrum by assigning half of the voices (1 synth engine) to the base MIDI channel and the other half to the other MIDI channel.

My understanding of the Rev2 is that it would do exactly as you are showing us.
DAW-less and going down the Eurorack rabbit hole.

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 08:01:30 PM »
Hi Billy. I would suggest you switch the Rev2 into multi-mode and address layer A in the base MIDI channel and layer B on the base channel + 1. This works absolutely fine, I have been doing this for the last year.

I don't think, but please correct me if I am wrong, the second set of stereo outputs (B) are designed to be played without multi mode. It is like Razmo tried to point out, the Rev2 is actually two synths. When you address both layers with one MIDI channel there is no way the firmware can figure out what outputs to use.

Although it might look like it can if you (from the player perspective) split the keyboard and assign lower MIDI notes to layer A and higher MIDI notes to layer B from the split point.

The other issue the firmware needs to figure out, when using one MIDI channel, which voices are allocated where. Multi mode solves that conundrum by assigning half of the voices (1 synth engine) to the base MIDI channel and the other half to the other MIDI channel.

My understanding of the Rev2 is that it would do exactly as you are showing us.
yup

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2018, 03:57:35 PM »
Probably best to contact DSI support if you are in doubt.
It's the official way to get them to look at your problem.
They do not systematically scan the forums for potential problems.

I appreciate the  response, but I do understand the basics.

I agree. But, the last response from them was that they were out of the office from July 4th through the weekend, which I received on July 11th. I want to get this rolling so I would have support that there is a clear issue here. I originally called when I first got the device back in February. They talked me out of there being a problem, but when you familiarize yourself with the machine for 5 months,  you will start to really understand how it is really supposed to work. I would appreciate any support from any fellow Rev2 owners because I'm getting nowhere quickly with them. I would appreciate anyone just watching video 4, as it is the quickest summary of what is going on here. Thanks!

I've watched all 4 video's.

1. The only problem I have similar is video 1 but only if I only use the left outputs of both layers. I'l try again later.
2. No problem it seems
3. Weird problem. It is like the synth is rotating through the voices and is confused with multi mode.
4. The problem is not prominent on the video

I appreciate you watching. I'm going to post an end-all response below. I encourage those who care to chime in because the answer I receive, in my opinion, could be better. The device is actually not doing what is supposed to be doing, and it seems like more of "insider" information that is found nowhere in the manual, like I've been told. The response kind of contradicts the purpose of "independent" outputs for B if they are just going to fly over to the next channel. Thanks all!

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2018, 07:51:11 PM »
I'm going to posit, with support of Ron Gerrist's response in this thread and the seemingly unplausible response from support (which I shall attempt to rebut below), there may be something wrong with many Rev2's that should be addressed in a firmware patch, or even worse, the product doesn't work as promised and a recall is in order. To get the most out of your investment(or to get what you paid for), I encourage supporting this argument if you find it valuable to your sound design process. Especially, if like me you read the manual before buying to understand what could be done with the Rev2 in your workflow.

Here is a final, more comprehensive, but still mediocre video outlining the problem that was sent to support. If you disagreed with me earlier, I hope that you watch this last video to reexamine the point I was struggling to make. Support's response is included below the video. My rebuttal to support's response is red-lined within support's and continues below supports response. Again, thank you for your time, interest, and support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fw9WDZxdzE

Hi William-

Thanks for your additional video. Regarding this, anytime you have a cable plugged into the B outputs, it automatically removes half the voices from layer A. This is why you see the voices bounce from the first two channels to the second two channels. With the patches I have loaded, I'm using a single voice from each layer with the 3 note arpeggios. Why would we have problems with resources here? The fact that you have either layer A or B currently selected with the Edit Layer B button does not deter from the fact that you have the cables inserted into the B outputs. Also, the behavior you are expecting is more likely what Split will do for you as you've tested already. That's fine and dandy. Even if I did want to "hack" a solution, the desktop module doesn't feature the Split key point selection feature the Key model has that allows you to change the split point on the fly. Further, the manual states this on page 13 for more details. This is blatantly incorrect. there's not a single page in the manual, let alone 13 (which conveys my point clearly), that speaks to this.

So to sum up, if you only have the Main outputs connected, all 16 voices will come through the Main outputs. Once you plug in any cables into the B outputs, this will automatically pull half the voices from the Main outputs and feed them to the B outputs which is considered the B layer. Layer B is layer B. The voices are already allocated otherwise you'd have problems even with 2 cables! This is just an audio cable transmitting the sound to its destination. Keep in mind, The problem exhibits in a SINGLE layer, pressing single keys, with only 1 voice each!. If you do NOT have any buttons engaged in the Edit Layer B, Split or Layer area, the audio will jump between 8 voices on channel A and 8 for channel B. If you engage the Edit Layer B button, you are ONLY EDITING layer B This is wrong. Page 6 in the manual explains this, and anyone here also probably knows this too. This one is just too obvious. No lights in the layer section = Layer A. Only "Edit Layer B" lit means you are hearing AND editing only Layer B. . Again, this does NOT mean you are only hearing layer B, UNLESS you have it in Split and are playing only the upper split point of the keyboard/controller. This is patently false, I've solo'd all channels and I clearly heard a distinguished B Layer Pulse Wave emit from from the Layer A Sawtooth Patch Bus as it jumped to the channels reserved for Layer A. Layer B was the only sound playing minus a change in volume when it switches channels.

I hope this answers your question. It raises concerns.

Best regards,


So why is this even an issue? Let's first take a look at what page 13 promises, and what using the main outputs (2 cables) robs of the sound design process as the layers are mixed together and not separate. 7 B Audio Outputs separate stereo outputs of Layers B should be exactly that. They should never interfere with layer A--- they should never cross channels. Why? What if I have a plugin or pedal meant specifically for Layer A? Let's say it's distortion. Then on Layer B, I've reserved a delay pedal I want to affect this layer ONLY. Common in synth layering, both layers are routed into their intended effects are so starkly and COMPLETELY different sounding. But,when combined with their relative effects, yield a beautiful palette of sound. But, if I swapped the effects on each layers, they sound like garbage. Meaning basically, how could you ever imagine Layer B running through a distortion effect when the harmonics yield something entirely different and harsh? Now imagine Layer A or B jumping rapidly on to the other layer's, swapping effects every 2 seconds--Wow that's not musical or useful. Layer A hits distortion, now it hits delay, then distortion--you get the point, I'm sure.

Now you can't do what you originally bought the device for. Just ask yourself this: What is using 4 cables good for if the unit is meant to operate as support suggests? (Nothing) Just look at how misleading support's responses seems--the most basic concepts of the machine butchered(Like how to select a Layer). I hope this is clear and I thank everyone for their time. I'm also going to feel like a total jerk if I'm wrong. But I'm willing to bet on any of this.

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2018, 10:44:01 PM »
Hey mate, I just tried it on mine and I get the same thing.  Not random jumping between the outputs but a split of the voices between the two outputs. Mine is the 8 voice? So I get 4 notes playing in a row on output A, then the next 4 on output B, then repeat.

Iíd say two things, 1- that it your synth is not faulty, 2- that I agree it is ridiculous behaviour with no benefit whatsoever for the end user.

They really should change this via a firmware fix honestly. If both outputs are used itís painfully clear, to me, that layer 1 should come out of output A and 2 out of B (when both are plugged in of course).


Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2018, 10:50:36 PM »
Hey mate, I just tried it on mine and I get the same thing.  Not random jumping between the outputs but a split of the voices between the two outputs. Mine is the 8 voice? So I get 4 notes playing in a row on output A, then the next 4 on output B, then repeat.

Iíd say two things, 1- that it your synth is not faulty, 2- that I agree it is ridiculous behaviour with no benefit whatsoever for the end user.

They really should change this via a firmware fix honestly. If both outputs are used itís painfully clear, to me, that layer 1 should come out of output A and 2 out of B (when both are plugged in of course).

I agree. For me Layer B output also goes to output A. A only to output A. This is for multi-mode on and off, in split and stack.

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2018, 11:09:13 PM »

I agree. For me Layer B output also goes to output A. A only to output A. This is for multi-mode on and off, in split and stack.

For me it occurs the same for both layers.

Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2018, 11:32:27 PM »
Besides the mentioned problems I still like the REV2 very much. I'm now just using it a one synth with only Stereo Main output. With split, single or stack. Then it is perfect!!
It is just a problem in a bi-timbral mode and I can live with it.

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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2018, 11:42:14 PM »
At 4:14 in the video, it’s coming out of the B outputs because you don’t have the synth in split mode. And that’s why it’s sharing voices as it goes through each note. By default the synth will send half the voices to output B if there’s plugs in it, regardless.

Since the layer B voice is effectively switched off, the synth is sharing the layer A voice between both A and B outputs.
And the same thing will happen if you only have layer B activated; which happens in your video.

I understand your frustration, because that’s just inconvenient to say the least. Basically it will always share voices between both output A&B  if split mode is not active. But if you just leave it in split you should have no worries.

Incedently, this is why I got the 16 voice. I wanted to have Two 8voice synths.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 11:45:16 PM by MPM »
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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2018, 12:09:30 AM »
At 4:14 in the video, itís coming out of the B outputs because you donít have the synth in split mode. And thatís why itís sharing voices as it goes through each note. By default the synth will send half the voices to output B if thereís plugs in it, regardless.

Since the layer B voice is effectively switched off, the synth is sharing the layer A voice between both A and B outputs.
And the same thing will happen if you only have layer B activated; which happens in your video.

I understand your frustration, because thatís just inconvenient to say the least. Basically it will always share voices between both output A&B  if split mode is not active. But if you just leave it in split you should have no worries.

Incedently, this is why I got the 16 voice. I wanted to have Two 8voice synths.


Ok so please guys tell me if this is possible ( I did not take time to try multi yet ) in case you do not exceed the max voices per layer:


- control Layer A in your daw on CH1 , and real time knobs etc tweak of Layer A on the rev2 --- > main output
- control Layer B in your daw on CH2, and real time knobs etc tweak of Layer B on the rev2 --- > second output
Not native english speaker.

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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 12:22:26 AM »
Sorry, I donít use DAW sequencing.
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Re: Something Seems Dreadfully Wrong (With Mine)
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2018, 12:53:31 AM »
You have two 8 voice synths in a REV2 16 voice... one synth is permanently and physically routed to the A outputs, and the other synth to the B outputs.

If you play in split mode and stacked mode, the two synths are each on their own, working as 8 voice synths, either playing side by side, or on top of each other...

but if you play in 16 voice mode, the two synths are working together to give you 16 voices... they are daisy chained internally, but you have to understand that the two synths are STILL routed to their own pair of outputs...

The problem is that you think too much in layers... you think that layer A should allways play on the A outputs, but this is NOT the case when you play a 16 voice combined program... internally Layer A's program will be copied to Layer B, so that both synths play the same program, giving you the illusion of having a 16 voice synth... you do not... you have TWO synths playing the same program, each with 8 voices routed to their own respective outputs.

The only way to fix this 16 voice mode to come out of only one output is by either mixing the two stereo tracks in your DAW or soundcard, or to remove the plugs from the B outputs so that the REV2 mixes anything going to the B outputs into the A outputs.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your REV2 :) ... only thing you need to do to make things the way you want them is to take out the B output plugs when you want a 16 voice program to enter your soundcard on only one stereo input... I know this is not what you expected, but unless you have the means to mix stereo channels on your soundcard into one stereo input pair, then you need to pull the plugs on the B output to get what you want when playing a 16 voice program.

This way of physically routing the A/B layers is the same on any DSI synth with an A/B dual capability... Prophet 8, Prophet 12, REV2 and Prophet X... they all do it this way :)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 12:57:32 AM by Razmo »
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