The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0

Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2019, 04:16:40 PM »
Not too comforting to someone who just bought one new...

Don't worry about it. The final firmware is really robust, you just have to avoid doing certain things which for me are...

- Don't use the internal mixer (it sucks)
- Don't use it for sequencing external gear (unless you can spare a voice) and for anything but the most basic melodic sequencing internally.

It's a fantastic piece of hardware and an absolute sound design powerhouse. I still don't think there's anything on the market that really competes - it's like six DFAMs in a box and more FFS. Currently working on a videogame that has around 350 sound effects, I've designed those all from scratch on the Tempest and it's been great. It can makes kicks that'll shake the pictures off your wall and leads that'll take the top of your head off.

The thing that irritates me most is the fact you can't tweak amp envelope decay and the curve of your amp envelope in mod paths without having to constantly flip back to the mod paths screen  ;)

My comment above referred not to where the Tempest is now but to the pain we had to go through to get the Tempest to its current state (and even get features that were in the manual from day one implemented). It took years and only happened because forum members started a petition and got Roger Linn behind it. I don't think there can be any denying that DSI's focus as a company at that point was very much on new stuff rather than supporting existing users and making good on their promises.


   
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Razmo

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Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2019, 06:39:42 PM »
If we had the tools in house we would have added the feature because, lemme tell you, it was high on our list. But the reality of the chip we chose and the tradeoff of fixed part cost vs. development cost (due to lack of good tools and needing to program entirely in assembly among other things) just made it a really bad idea in the end. We learned from our mistakes and have changed our approach since, which is why the Prophet X is more solid, we have more control over the dev process now

I ended up spending vastly more time into Tempest development than was required, lots on my own after hours, and fixed numerous timing and other problems but eventually it became a battle with an underpowered chip and my own inexperience. I'm confident I can do 10x better now but that was my first time doing a complex OS on my own, honestly I'm pretty happy with how well it turned out given all the constraints we had

Just saying, try not to make assumptions, there are a lot of things behind the scenes we don't share but it doesn't mean we're only concerned about making money. This is a labor of love for us first and foremost, we are all artists and musicians here and want to see our vision come to fruition, but sometimes we shoot a bit too far, personally I'm glad we keep challenging ourselves and taking risks

"Would be fun to make a drum machine based on this kind of technology, not that we're doing that immediately, but... "

;)

I like the bit just after that where he says something like 'Of course we've got lots of new stuff coming out, that's what we do'!

Rather than maintain, update and/or finish the 'old' stuff!

If Sequential REALLY wanted to, they could fix the Tempest... I'm certain of that... it may be that the samples-chip is hard to change the samples in, but I'm sure they would have the tools to do this in house if they wanted to... and if they wanted they could just offer users to send in their Tempest, and have their chips reflashed with a sample set without any clicks in the single cycle waveforms... and if they are running out of codespace, they could rewrite the code again from the ground up, and take out a lot of those extra features that was not even meant to be in there from the time they designed the machine... i recall Linn saying that it now has more features than he would have done himself, suggesting that they simply stressed the Tempest beyond it's capabilities.

They COULD fix Tempest... but they won't... there is no profits to be gained by it, and that's probably the real reason nothing more is happening with it.

If you REALLY learned the lesson I will comment on, the day you release a fully working non beta version of the PX sample import utility... It was promised for december last year, and is nowhere near completion as it is now, ... All the important velocity switching and roundrobbin functionality is missing still, and again you gave the responsibility away to third party developers to make sure you deliver what you promised...

I do like the Tempest, and it do work pretty steadfast, but it still has a few really bad bugs... A voice is stolen when using the external sequencing feature, the playlist freeze when you record live, there are bugs with the sliders and the single cycle waveforms have some really aggravating clicks, the MIDI DIN SysEx has a serious bug in it, and to me these will allways stand out as big flaws in an otherwise beautiful gem, and I do not get why you do not try and solve at least those that do not include the samples... I know the samples will never be fixed, but it still is the biggest flaw in my opinion.

Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2019, 09:23:41 AM »
I don't think there can be any denying that DSI's focus as a company at that point was very much on new stuff rather than supporting existing users and making good on their promises.

This seems to be the modus operandi from day one, which is a shame all considering. It doesn't matter how old a product is, if it's still on shelves especially for full price (a couple grand), then its bugs should be fixed if possible. Certainly don't go around proclaiming how severely comprised it is and how good your most current product is in comparison.

All in all, I still love the thing warts and all. I knew going in what I was getting into when buying a DSI/Sequential product and how a lot of folks view the Tempest in particular. It's still like nothing else on the market.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 09:54:37 AM by Sleep of Reason »

Razmo

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Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2019, 09:38:22 AM »
And because it is still unique on the market is exactly why I think that it should be fixed... we have no alternative... and I bet that is why it is not being fixed.

Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2019, 11:28:23 AM »
If the TX does happen, I hope there's knobs for sustain & release instead of a shift function.

Stoss

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Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2019, 08:06:01 AM »
I'm confident I can do 10x better now

Yes please.

Tempest 2.0 = an experienced rewrite of the firmware.

I don't get why Sequential doesn't see this as a business opportunity. Reputation management for existing users (champions of the product) and a grand rerelease for a bump in sales.

Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2019, 11:46:00 PM »
I'm confident I can do 10x better now

Yes please.

Tempest 2.0 = an experienced rewrite of the firmware.

I don't get why Sequential doesn't see this as a business opportunity. Reputation management for existing users (champions of the product) and a grand rerelease for a bump in sales.

With the discontinuation of the P08, and more recently the P12 and the MophoX4 I think we are seeing “Phase 2” of Sequential. Looking at the Tempest, it’s interface and architecture is very similar to things like the Mophox4. Even the knobs are similar. Looking at everything from the P6 to the PX, it’s clear Sequential has evolved. Now that the Mophox4 is gone and the P12 is gone, it’s a sign that Sequential is about evolving and likely we will see the end of the Pro2 and Tempest as well. Not for a while but that’s okay.  The Tempest is an amazing instrument as it stands and frankly if you can’t make it work as it is, then there’s plenty of other options on the market currently. If you want the Tempest and can accept it and embrace it for what it is, rather than what you think it should be, then you will absolutely love it and do awesome things with it. If you want to spend your time complaining constantly and demanding features and updates that never will come, instead of buying an MPC X or Elektron Analog Rytm, then you aren’t going to get much music done, let alone music done with the Tempest.

We will see another drum machine from Sequential in “Phase 2”. Won’t be for a few years, but I am confident we will. Then again...Roger Linn is working on another drum machine, and with the current MPC and Elektron Machines, maybe Sequential might not even feel the need to.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

Stoss

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  • 134
Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2019, 10:31:16 AM »
I'm confident I can do 10x better now

Yes please.

Tempest 2.0 = an experienced rewrite of the firmware.

I don't get why Sequential doesn't see this as a business opportunity. Reputation management for existing users (champions of the product) and a grand rerelease for a bump in sales.

With the discontinuation of the P08, and more recently the P12 and the MophoX4 I think we are seeing “Phase 2” of Sequential. Looking at the Tempest, it’s interface and architecture is very similar to things like the Mophox4. Even the knobs are similar. Looking at everything from the P6 to the PX, it’s clear Sequential has evolved. Now that the Mophox4 is gone and the P12 is gone, it’s a sign that Sequential is about evolving and likely we will see the end of the Pro2 and Tempest as well. Not for a while but that’s okay.  The Tempest is an amazing instrument as it stands and frankly if you can’t make it work as it is, then there’s plenty of other options on the market currently. If you want the Tempest and can accept it and embrace it for what it is, rather than what you think it should be, then you will absolutely love it and do awesome things with it. If you want to spend your time complaining constantly and demanding features and updates that never will come, instead of buying an MPC X or Elektron Analog Rytm, then you aren’t going to get much music done, let alone music done with the Tempest.

We will see another drum machine from Sequential in “Phase 2”. Won’t be for a few years, but I am confident we will. Then again...Roger Linn is working on another drum machine, and with the current MPC and Elektron Machines, maybe Sequential might not even feel the need to.

A retrospective assessment that DSI/Sequential has evolved is pretty obvious. I don't know that "Phase 2" is the right way to classify any moment in time as a clear division point though. If you look at their collection of products you can see shifts in the hardware design as well as the conceptual design as you move from one product to the next. There is no real phase to speak of, but rather a continual flow and evolution of ideas.

The Tempest is unique in that it included an outside designer with the vision and expertise to inject completely new ideas and goals into the development of a product. It is however clearly the current synth "phase" of DSI at that time melded with features of a drum machine.

In the later part of your post you get a little preachy about how one should spend their own time and how they should approach their relationship with the Tempest. I don't know that you meant that for me personally, but I will say this... The Tempest is outstanding... nothing like it. I have no problems with it's designed limitations. There are just some originally designed (and promised) capabilities it does not yet do and some flaws that are unprofessional. While I completely accept it the Tempest and love it for what it currently is, I am capable of simultaneously wanting my favorite machine to be even better. When the original developer comes to the forum and proclaims that he can do "10x better now", I'm pretty damn interested in expressing my wanting for it to be improved (completed)... while still simultaneously continuing to love it for what it currently is.

Finally, I'm definitely interested in what Roger Linn may be working on. What matters to me is expressive and intuitive live performance that is immediately recordable... being able to record rhythmic ideas with immediate control over dynamic expression as well as timbre shaping is key.

Re: Prophet X divided by 2 = Tempest 2.0
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2019, 01:22:28 PM »
I'm confident I can do 10x better now

Yes please.

Tempest 2.0 = an experienced rewrite of the firmware.

I don't get why Sequential doesn't see this as a business opportunity. Reputation management for existing users (champions of the product) and a grand rerelease for a bump in sales.

With the discontinuation of the P08, and more recently the P12 and the MophoX4 I think we are seeing “Phase 2” of Sequential. Looking at the Tempest, it’s interface and architecture is very similar to things like the Mophox4. Even the knobs are similar. Looking at everything from the P6 to the PX, it’s clear Sequential has evolved. Now that the Mophox4 is gone and the P12 is gone, it’s a sign that Sequential is about evolving and likely we will see the end of the Pro2 and Tempest as well. Not for a while but that’s okay.  The Tempest is an amazing instrument as it stands and frankly if you can’t make it work as it is, then there’s plenty of other options on the market currently. If you want the Tempest and can accept it and embrace it for what it is, rather than what you think it should be, then you will absolutely love it and do awesome things with it. If you want to spend your time complaining constantly and demanding features and updates that never will come, instead of buying an MPC X or Elektron Analog Rytm, then you aren’t going to get much music done, let alone music done with the Tempest.

We will see another drum machine from Sequential in “Phase 2”. Won’t be for a few years, but I am confident we will. Then again...Roger Linn is working on another drum machine, and with the current MPC and Elektron Machines, maybe Sequential might not even feel the need to.

A retrospective assessment that DSI/Sequential has evolved is pretty obvious. I don't know that "Phase 2" is the right way to classify any moment in time as a clear division point though. If you look at their collection of products you can see shifts in the hardware design as well as the conceptual design as you move from one product to the next. There is no real phase to speak of, but rather a continual flow and evolution of ideas.

The Tempest is unique in that it included an outside designer with the vision and expertise to inject completely new ideas and goals into the development of a product. It is however clearly the current synth "phase" of DSI at that time melded with features of a drum machine.

In the later part of your post you get a little preachy about how one should spend their own time and how they should approach their relationship with the Tempest. I don't know that you meant that for me personally, but I will say this... The Tempest is outstanding... nothing like it. I have no problems with it's designed limitations. There are just some originally designed (and promised) capabilities it does not yet do and some flaws that are unprofessional. While I completely accept it the Tempest and love it for what it currently is, I am capable of simultaneously wanting my favorite machine to be even better. When the original developer comes to the forum and proclaims that he can do "10x better now", I'm pretty damn interested in expressing my wanting for it to be improved (completed)... while still simultaneously continuing to love it for what it currently is.

Finally, I'm definitely interested in what Roger Linn may be working on. What matters to me is expressive and intuitive live performance that is immediately recordable... being able to record rhythmic ideas with immediate control over dynamic expression as well as timbre shaping is key.

Nah, my statement wasn’t directed towards anyone. I just think it’s silly to keep asking for something Sequential said won’t be happening ever rather than just getting gear that has those features. That way they can temporarily solve their problems until if and when Sequential do another drum machine that meets their needs.

It’s much like the octave range argument on the P6 and OB6. “I must have more octaves.” “Get an external midi controller” “no”. Like a solution exists and people refuse to get it for whatever reason.

If people want more memory, sampling, multi channel external sequencing then the Tempest just isn’t for them.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii