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How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community

chysn

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2018, 05:57:45 AM »
Tariffs can absolutely be placed on finished products. Many countries around the world do this today.

Certainly. I meant that the new U.S. tariffs primarily target raw materials like steel and PCBs, rather than finished products like nails and synthesizers. It's primarily raw materials tariffs that I oppose, as their effects ripple chaotically around the economy, and they provide perverse incentives counter to their stated purpose.

I don't think that reducing the trade deficit is a worthy goal, by the way. I have a $15,000 per year trade deficit with my grocery store. They buy pretty much nothing from me. But I don't freak out about it because I get what I want out of the relationship.
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Arturia MicroBrute
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore2
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn


Shaw

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2018, 06:59:27 AM »
Certainly. I meant that the new U.S. tariffs primarily target raw materials like steel and PCBs, rather than finished products like nails and synthesizers. It's primarily raw materials tariffs that I oppose, as their effects ripple chaotically around the economy, and they provide perverse incentives counter to their stated purpose.
I agree with you on that. Raw materials are raw materials given the same spec and tolerances.  It what the designer and labor force does with those materials that matter. 
I suppose I like to think that a synth made by people who are synthesists themselves (Moog) will surpass a synth made by Chinese factory workers who were making phones the prior week and hard drives the week before that.


I don't think that reducing the trade deficit is a worthy goal, by the way. I have a $15,000 per year trade deficit with my grocery store. They buy pretty much nothing from me. But I don't freak out about it because I get what I want out of the relationship.
Your grocery bill is more of an investment that (by keeping you alive) allows you to produce more than you spend. While you may have a negative trade deficit with your grocer, your monetary trade surplus against your employer is many times higher. 
For countries, it’s a different comparison.  Because in terms of countries (which don’t eat) the trade deficit is much more important as a metric in terms of whether its economy is growing (the prime indicator of economic health).
Prophet X  |  Prophet 12  |  OB-6
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

chysn

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2018, 07:52:09 AM »
For countries, it’s a different comparison.  Because in terms of countries (which don’t eat) the trade deficit is much more important as a metric in terms of whether its economy is growing (the prime indicator of economic health).

The U.S. hasn't had a trade surplus since 1975. It has nothing to do with growth. If the dollars come back in the form of investment, it simply doesn't matter whether we import more than we export. The trade deficit is a political bludgeon because it seems like it would be a bad thing. But there are so many other factors that are better indicators. I'd say, if we're going to pick some crazy number to try to fix, it would be better to focus on income inequality.
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Arturia MicroBrute
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore2
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2018, 07:58:42 AM »
This was the Smart Belle amp I spoke of...go to 1:40 and they talk about how they had to find craftsman in different states to custom make parts for them.

https://youtu.be/WJVu6lF8UPk

Again, I’m not saying that Moog themselves have to make the Raw material but perhaps we will see companies that CAN afford automation to start manufacturing them...will it be more expensive? Well, a Moog One is slated to be around $8k anyway...I highly doubt anyone who is spending that much money on a synth to begin with is going to complain about price.

Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

Shaw

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2018, 08:03:07 AM »
For countries, it’s a different comparison.  Because in terms of countries (which don’t eat) the trade deficit is much more important as a metric in terms of whether its economy is growing (the prime indicator of economic health).

The U.S. hasn't had a trade surplus since 1975. It has nothing to do with growth. If the dollars come back in the form of investment, it simply doesn't matter whether we import more than we export. The trade deficit is a political bludgeon because it seems like it would be a bad thing. But there are so many other factors that are better indicators. I'd say, if we're going to pick some crazy number to try to fix, it would be better to focus on income inequality.
We are going to have to agree to disagree here. While trade deficit certainly isn’t the only thing that matters to growth, it is a key component in the analysis. 
... and this issue has an effect on income inequality as well.
Prophet X  |  Prophet 12  |  OB-6
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

Shaw

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2018, 08:04:38 AM »
Again, I’m not saying that Moog themselves have to make the Raw material but perhaps we will see companies that CAN afford automation to start manufacturing them...will it be more expensive? Well, a Moog One is slated to be around $8k anyway...I highly doubt anyone who is spending that much money on a synth to begin with is going to complain about price.
Yeah... I really hope this thing doesn’t turn out to just be vaporware...  I doubt I’ll ever own one, but I like to see Moog pushing the envelop.
Prophet X  |  Prophet 12  |  OB-6
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2018, 08:10:16 AM »
Actually does anyone know the exact details in regards to the tariffs...I mean from the horse’s mouth not from some Vice article lol. What EXACTLY is included, what EXACTLY is exempted?
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2018, 08:39:06 AM »
Actually does anyone know the exact details in regards to the tariffs...I mean from the horse’s mouth not from some Vice article lol. What EXACTLY is included, what EXACTLY is exempted?

You’ll find the according link in the CDM article.

Shaw

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2018, 09:31:55 AM »
The “horses mouth” on world tariff rates would be the WTO.  Here’s a link to the 2017 WTO report on global tariff profiles comparing countries.

https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/booksp_e/tariff_profiles17_e.pdf

The is US tariff rates is among the lowest in the world.
Prophet X  |  Prophet 12  |  OB-6
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2018, 09:38:12 AM »
Actually does anyone know the exact details in regards to the tariffs...I mean from the horse’s mouth not from some Vice article lol. What EXACTLY is included, what EXACTLY is exempted?

You’ll find the according link in the CDM article.

Reading through it, the proposal is simply that, a proposal and is inviting interested person to comment. If anything I see more of a compromise happening in regards to the tariffs and I’ll bet we’ll see “special incentives” for startups manufacturing items in the U.S.

What I see happening:

I can see that the tariffs on certain raw material be exempt (if those raw materials cannot be found or are not manufactured currently on U.S. soil)

I can see that the tariffs are not imposed on items in the development or experimental stage on the condition that once the final product goes into production that at least 80-90% of the product are from components manufacturered on U.S. soil.

Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

ddp

Buchla Music Easel, MP11SE, Moog One, Nord Lead 3, LinnStrument, Polyend SEQ, Reason, Recycle, Live, Push 2, Max

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2018, 12:20:18 PM »
Found this post on my Facebook from someone who constructs synths.

"First off: here is the official list of items proposed to be subject to a 25% tariff. For 99.9999% of people in the 'synth biz', the items of concern are on Page 46. Caps and resistors and trimmers and panel pots (but not encoders, or switches or knobs or jacks or......pc boards....WHEW)
https://ustr.gov/…/de…/files/files/Press/Releases/301FRN.pdf
So, what does this mean?
for resistors.....nothing. I mean, $14 for a reel of 5000? Meh.
for capacitors? Hell's Bells, they already raised the pricing 300-350% 6 weeks ago, after everyone panic-bought the shelves to zero inventory. So Meh yet again.
for pots? Now this is the big one, especially for me. But still, if a Euro module has 8 pots, and you bought them from Mouser for $0.60ea, the impact is ($0.60 * 0.25) * 8 = $1.20
So, a manufacturer can just eyeroll and suck up the entire BOM impact (call it $1.45) or raise wholesale pricing $5 which then raises retail $9.
What SHOULD NOT HAPPEN is raising the price of the entire product 25% and then yelling BUT HIS TARIFFS!
What will happen specifically at SynthTech is that when I have to re-order my $2.53ea pots, which are from China, and they are on the list, I will raise my prices to cover THIS cost. The caps and resistors I will just shrug off.
And I hope others will keep the panic and outrage to a minimum"

There's actually no tariff on "Chinese Circuit Boards".
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

megamarkd

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2018, 12:28:01 AM »
Thank you for that.  As much as i don't think Trump has what it takes to run a country, I know that lobby groups tend to misrepresent issues to benefit their cause.  The post above this has shown how a FUD campaign is under way.

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2018, 09:35:26 AM »
Thank you for that.  As much as i don't think Trump has what it takes to run a country, I know that lobby groups tend to misrepresent issues to benefit their cause.  The post above this has shown how a FUD campaign is under way.

I don't blame Moog per say. They claim their supplier came to their ship and broke the news to them. So either the supplier was misinformed or outright lied to them and they took it as gospel.

Still I'm curious to see how exactly this plays out...starting a campaign or writing to your government and asking to stop something from happening that wasn't even happening in the first place.

I seriously hope Moog isn't trying to justify a massive price increase just to simply point fingers at you know who.

I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

Shaw

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2018, 09:51:35 AM »
I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part.  But they still make great synths.
Prophet X  |  Prophet 12  |  OB-6
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2018, 09:56:37 AM »
I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part.  But they still make great synths.

Yes they do...and that's what they should focus on 100%, not writing dumb posts about having a festival with almost no male performers or interviews with artists about their personal beliefs or choices with almost no discussion of Synthesis. I love DSI's artist's spotlight. It's all about the synths and the music not a VICE article.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii

ddp

Buchla Music Easel, MP11SE, Moog One, Nord Lead 3, LinnStrument, Polyend SEQ, Reason, Recycle, Live, Push 2, Max

megamarkd

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Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2018, 09:13:27 PM »
I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part.  But they still make great synths.

Yes they do...and that's what they should focus on 100%, not writing dumb posts about having a festival with almost no male performers or interviews with artists about their personal beliefs or choices with almost no discussion of Synthesis. I love DSI's artist's spotlight. It's all about the synths and the music not a VICE article.

Bob's dead and it's not like his name was never highjacked and used for evil in the past.  Oh course they will produce immaculate synths, but the guiding vision is gone and I have had feeling since Bob gasped his last, it'll be like Apple now that Steve has passed; new iterations of the same thing with not much in the way of innovation.  What was Bob's last stance on another PolyMoog?  Meh, just give me a Mother32 and that's all the Moog I will ever need.

Re: How the 25% tariff on Chinese goods might affect the synth community
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2018, 10:33:03 PM »
I will say one thing about DSI, they always remain "business only" and never get into political or social issues. They don't alienate their customers. It's all about their synths and having fun. That's the way it shoud be....Moog (at least in the Facebook groups) on the other hand....
That’s just bad business and ignorance on Moog’s part.  But they still make great synths.

Yes they do...and that's what they should focus on 100%, not writing dumb posts about having a festival with almost no male performers or interviews with artists about their personal beliefs or choices with almost no discussion of Synthesis. I love DSI's artist's spotlight. It's all about the synths and the music not a VICE article.

Bob's dead and it's not like his name was never highjacked and used for evil in the past.  Oh course they will produce immaculate synths, but the guiding vision is gone and I have had feeling since Bob gasped his last, it'll be like Apple now that Steve has passed; new iterations of the same thing with not much in the way of innovation.  What was Bob's last stance on another PolyMoog?  Meh, just give me a Mother32 and that's all the Moog I will ever need.

Well to be fair the stability of older poly synths was nowhere near what it is today and with PolyMoog after PolyMoog being returned for repairs...especially since it wasn't his idea (it was David Luce) I can see why Bob wasn't thrilled about it.

I want Moog to be discussing things like built in effects on their synths, multitimbrality, Polyphony etc. Not politics. I got booted out of one of the Facebook groups because I posted the statement above explaining another manufacturer's point of view on the tariffs. Like...honestly...stuff like that makes it incredibly difficult for me to want to support them.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Oberheim SEM-Pro, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano,Kurzweil K2600XS, Roland FA-08, Baldwin Upright Piano, Fender Stratocaster, Fender Telecaster, Gibson Chet Atkins SST, Jackson King V, Ibanez Jem, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii