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Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?

Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« on: June 29, 2018, 11:43:49 AM »
I have a Prophet Rev2 16-v and love it! I'm trying to find a perfect mono synth to pair it with. I'm torn between the Subsequent37 and Dominion 1. I've read nearly every post and watched most every video on these two!

Most of the time I'd use it for expressive leads that really sing (not overly buzzy or in-your-face, unless I pair it with lots of FX) and rich/gritty bass lines. I'd rarely use the sequencer. The majority of posts and reviews I've seen say Moog is perfect for this. However, once you see SonicState review the Dominion 1 (in particular) and you hear those VCO's and Filters and the complexity it can get into, you just can't UNhear it. It just seems more capable than the Subsequent37 BUT a common comment is that it's much more aggressive sounding and geared more toward percussive sounds and in-your-face leads/basses. I've also seen side-by-side spectrums for these two using a single VCO and no filter, and there's a significant roll-off of the high frequencies on the Subsequent37 vs the Dominion 1 (or my Rev2 for that matter).

Obviously there are pro's and con's for each but I'd love any recommendations you have on these two and the Rev2 pairing!
MFB Dominion 1 | Fender Rhodes Mk I | Novation Impulse 61 | Apogee Ensemble | Ableton & Push 2 with TONS of plugins

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2018, 01:52:17 PM »
I'm in the same boat: trying to pick a monosynth to pair with the Rev2!

I can do most of what I need with the Rev2, but splitting the keyboard and working on both patches can be a little tedious.

It's a tough problem, but a fun one to have. So far the Odyssey is seeming the most appealing to me, but I haven't had the chance to try one out in person. I love the SE-02 sound, but the tiny knobs and buttons are a real turn off...I want something tactile and easy to work with. The Dominion 1 looks nice...I'm going to have to take a few listens to it. Sigh...either way, I'm in no rush! It's fun just exploring videos and listening to all that's out there!

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2018, 04:11:28 PM »
Hey I have a Rev2 and a Subsequent 37.  I love both synths so fukin much, they go great together.  The Dominion is a sick ass synth too though, so tough decision, is there a place you can go to play on each one so you can make a hands on decision?  The thing I love about the Moog is the overdrive on the filter can really make screaming ripping sounds, whereas the Prophet cannot, so they together truly cover all my sound design palettes.   
DSI Prophet Rev2-8, Moog Subsequent 37, Novation Bass Station 2, Korg Poly 800, Roland JX 03, MOTU Micro Lite, Antelope Audio Zen Tour, iMac 2016, Logic X

ddp

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2018, 04:36:16 PM »
I like my Subsequent, it started life as a Sub 37, I had it upgraded.  The Moog filter sounds awesome, duh.
Buchla Music Easel, MP11SE, Moog One, Nord Lead 3, LinnStrument, Polyend SEQ, Reason, Recycle, Live, Push 2, Max

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2018, 03:02:39 PM »
A couple of years ago. I was quite interested in the MFB Dominion 1, but I couldn't find a retailer in the United States that carried it. 
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2018, 08:26:23 PM »
Thanks for the feedback!

SimpleRabbit -- The Odyssey does sound great. I can see why you're checking that one out.

SYZYGYX -- I'm in central Florida and no one carriers either around here, unfortunately. I'm with you on the overdrive options for the Subsequent 37 filter! Driving it sounds amazing in the demos! The Dominion 1's filter is clearly different with an adjustable, self-resonant 1 pole filter plus all the other options. I'm just not sure it can filter out the buzziness without killing the life of the sound, like the Subsequent 37 can. I'm beginning to think the filter drive options on the Subsequent 37 might be the secret to shaving off the buzz while still maintaining life in the sound (aka adding harmonics via drive and the ladder filter design).

Sacred Synthesis -- Thanks for the response (I read most of your ultimate mono synth post)! I'm considering Thomann and hoping I don't ever have to repair it. Based on all you know of these two options, do you think the Dominion 1 can do non-buzzy leads as good as and/or improves on the Subsequent 37? Do you think the Dominion 1 is on the same level as the Subsequent 37 with mono/para playability (after all, Moog is still in business for a reason)? Keep in mind I'm not a big pitch wheel player (definitely modwheel but rarely pitch), and that the gorgeous sounding, non-buzzy leads thing just happens to be the most obvious gap in my analog options, second only to actual full-featured VCO's covering all my mono/para synth sounds. Preset recall is a must for this synth too.

Thanks to all that responded!

Those that have the Subsequent 37, do you think the two VCO's + Sub is limited? Do you wish you had a 3rd, complete VCO? What about more RM/FM potential and non-LPF options?

Those that have played the Dominion 1, do you think the filter gives you the option of producing great sounding and non-buzzy leads without it sounding a bit lifeless? What are its strengths vs the Subsequent 37?
MFB Dominion 1 | Fender Rhodes Mk I | Novation Impulse 61 | Apogee Ensemble | Ableton & Push 2 with TONS of plugins

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2018, 12:04:11 PM »
All I can say is, for classic analog monophonic/paraphonic synthesis, the Dominion 1 was the clear winner for me over the Sub/Subsequent 37.  Three independent oscillators and 3 LFOs had a lot to do with it, plus a solid old school tone that was as good as the distinctive Moog tone.  I'm probably not as particular as most synthesists.  As long as an instrument has strong fundamentals, I'm happy with it.  I don't need an infinity of features, but only a generous supply of standard ones.  In that regard, I think the Dominion 1 is the better instrument. 

I must confess that I've always thought the Sub/Subsequent 37 design was incredibly ugly.  Its Quasimodo profile is so disfigured that I cringe at the sight of it.  I also prefer the deeper roomier lay-out of the Dominion 1 type of control panel, whereas the Subsequent 37 seems overly tight and crowded.  Plus, I like sliders, which offer instant visual information.  Therefore, my second pick after the MFB would be the ARP Odyssey.  Many years ago, I owned successively each of the three Odyssey models, and I actually liked its sound and features more than the Minimoog, which I also owned.  But none of this is to imply that the Subsequent 37 is a mediocre instrument.  All three of these synthesizers are superb.  How blessed we are to be struggling to choose between them!

As was said on the other thread, the issue of repairs is a serious one.  If you live in the USA and your instrument needs to be repaired in England - what, then?  How long before you've spend a ridiculous amount of money playing this foreseeable game?   That's the primary reason I've avoided vintage instruments, even though I'd love to use them. 

A long time ago, I had an Octave CAT SRM.  It was a fabulous synthesizer, but it spent many weeks leaning on its side at the repair shop.  I wasted much of my meager lawn-cutting income at the time just trying to keep it going.  It's a lesson I haven't forgotten.  So, the long-term practical side of owning a particular instrument should also be considered in making your decision.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 12:26:41 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2018, 10:25:49 AM »
All I can say is, for classic analog monophonic/paraphonic synthesis, the Dominion 1 was the clear winner for me over the Sub/Subsequent 37.  Three independent oscillators and 3 LFOs had a lot to do with it, plus a solid old school tone that was as good as the distinctive Moog tone.  I'm probably not as particular as most synthesists.  As long as an instrument has strong fundamentals, I'm happy with it.  I don't need an infinity of features, but only a generous supply of standard ones.  In that regard, I think the Dominion 1 is the better instrument. 

I must confess that I've always thought the Sub/Subsequent 37 design was incredibly ugly.  Its Quasimodo profile is so disfigured that I cringe at the sight of it.  I also prefer the deeper roomier lay-out of the Dominion 1 type of control panel, whereas the Subsequent 37 seems overly tight and crowded.  Plus, I like sliders, which offer instant visual information.  Therefore, my second pick after the MFB would be the ARP Odyssey.  Many years ago, I owned successively each of the three Odyssey models, and I actually liked its sound and features more than the Minimoog, which I also owned.  But none of this is to imply that the Subsequent 37 is a mediocre instrument.  All three of these synthesizers are superb.  How blessed we are to be struggling to choose between them!

As was said on the other thread, the issue of repairs is a serious one.  If you live in the USA and your instrument needs to be repaired in England - what, then?  How long before you've spend a ridiculous amount of money playing this foreseeable game?   That's the primary reason I've avoided vintage instruments, even though I'd love to use them. 

A long time ago, I had an Octave CAT SRM.  It was a fabulous synthesizer, but it spent many weeks leaning on its side at the repair shop.  I wasted much of my meager lawn-cutting income at the time just trying to keep it going.  It's a lesson I haven't forgotten.  So, the long-term practical side of owning a particular instrument should also be considered in making your decision.

I'd be careful to paint the Subsequent with the same brush as the Sub; the changes that Moog made to the gain staging are definitely a positive in terms of tone; while I wasn't enamored of the Sub, I'd definitely consider the Subsequent in its black livery.
Sequential / DSI / Pioneer stuff: Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, TORAIZ AS-1, Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2018, 11:08:55 AM »
Agreed.  The only critical comments I made about the Subsequent were about its physical appearance - which won't matter to most folks.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 11:40:38 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2018, 01:36:32 PM »
The D1 can easily go from harsh to overly sugar coated and "high-viscosity liquid" bass sounds. It's a flexible synth with very nice sound. Notice that the midi implementation is very basic and the knobs doesn't send or recieve CC, so if you like to automate stuff from external sequencer it's not that great, but if you prefer to play it as an instrument, it shines. With the velocity programming possibilities and the great keybed it just screams to be played.

At the end of listening to various mono's I had the same pair to choose from and decided to go with the Dominion, it has it's own sound which I prefer over the Subsequent 37. I'm also dreaming of building a small modular effects section for it, so the CV connections tipped the scale also. The CV outs can be used as an extra LFO on synths with filter/Amp pedal connections, if you run out of LFO's. (I'm looking at you OB-6!)

The Soviet power plant control room aesthetics of the Dom is also nice if you like that kind of stuff.

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2018, 01:49:54 PM »
Do you have any information about buying a Dominion 1 in America?
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2018, 12:15:26 AM »
Sorry but no I don't, I live in Northern Europe. But ordering from Thomann is very reliable and their service in the event of warranty repair/getting a replacing unit is very good. Don't know the details about possible shipping costs from US in case of warranty returns, I'd suggest you to email them and ask.

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2018, 07:17:24 AM »
Yeah, I figured that much.  But thanks anyway.
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 09:32:14 AM »
Do you have any information about buying a Dominion 1 in America?
I ended up buying mine from Thomann. It took a bit to ship (spent a while in customs), but otherwise wasn't much different than buying from Sweetwater.

The sound is versatile. It does basses very much like an ARP Odyssey, but the leads can be very thick. The presets do not do it justice. What it doesn't have is that Moog "burn" when the overdrive kicks in. I find myself frustrated with some of the UI for anything not directly on the front panel, and it takes a while to understand the routing. The keybed is wonderful, but the sliders are not as nice as the Prophet 12's.

I have enjoyed using CV to integrate it and my Behringer Model D, though you're going to need some long patch cables.

I don't have a Sub/sequent 37 for comparison, though from everything I've heard it's much more intuitive to program. The Dominion 1 is deep, and you're definitely going to need to use the manual. The oscillators and filters do sound great, and you can get a lot of complexity out of it. It's also really affordable, with very good build quality.

Hope that helps someone make a decision.
Prophet 12, Modal 002, MFB Dominion 1, Behringer DeepMind 12D, Korg Polysix & EX-8000, Roland JX-8P, Ensoniq SQ-80, Kawai K3m and now an OB-6!

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2018, 06:43:18 AM »
Do you have any information about buying a Dominion 1 in America?
The presets do not do it justice. What it doesn't have is that Moog "burn" when the overdrive kicks in.

Not sure what you exactly mean with the "burn" but if you need a slightly rougher overdriving sound, have you tried to patch the D1 back to itself, for example main out to ext in or some other combination like that?
And I agree, the presets are mostly a weak demonstration of what the synth is capable of sounding.

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2018, 11:07:22 AM »
The D1 can easily go from harsh to overly sugar coated and "high-viscosity liquid" bass sounds. It's a flexible synth with very nice sound. Notice that the midi implementation is very basic and the knobs doesn't send or recieve CC, so if you like to automate stuff from external sequencer it's not that great, but if you prefer to play it as an instrument, it shines. With the velocity programming possibilities and the great keybed it just screams to be played.

Thank you for the input! It's great to hear that about the range of sounds. I also thought I picked up on people saying the access to CC's was limited. Good thing is that I've been moving away from automation lately and more to hands-on control and playing live. As long as I can save/recall presets, I'm 100% fine.

The sound is versatile. It does basses very much like an ARP Odyssey, but the leads can be very thick. The presets do not do it justice. What it doesn't have is that Moog "burn" when the overdrive kicks in. I find myself frustrated with some of the UI for anything not directly on the front panel, and it takes a while to understand the routing. The keybed is wonderful, but the sliders are not as nice as the Prophet 12's.

I have enjoyed using CV to integrate it and my Behringer Model D, though you're going to need some long patch cables.

I don't have a Sub/sequent 37 for comparison, though from everything I've heard it's much more intuitive to program. The Dominion 1 is deep, and you're definitely going to need to use the manual. The oscillators and filters do sound great, and you can get a lot of complexity out of it. It's also really affordable, with very good build quality.

Hope that helps someone make a decision.

Thank you for the input as well! I've yet to hear negatives about the sound of the oscillators/filter and the synth's capabilities, which is really reassuring to continue hearing it. The thing that I've been hung up on are all the video/audio clips "showing off" presets! I listened to a series of youtube videos that walked through every preset of the Dominion 1. SEVERAL presets sound like they're straight from an old school Kung Fu movie. Even more presets add significant noise or are percussive sounding or put a envelope on a resonant filter. But very few presets or video/audio clips show off the capabilities of leads/basses (the kind that are expressive and not overly buzzy or too aggressive). On the other hand, finding a video clip of a Moog doing this is surprisingly easy. <-- That makes it easy to assume the Moog is more suited to those sounds, even though logic says the Dominion 1 is more synth with a deeper sound pallet.
MFB Dominion 1 | Fender Rhodes Mk I | Novation Impulse 61 | Apogee Ensemble | Ableton & Push 2 with TONS of plugins

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2018, 06:05:10 PM »
The presets do not do it justice. What it doesn't have is that Moog "burn" when the overdrive kicks in.

Not sure what you exactly mean with the "burn" but if you need a slightly rougher overdriving sound, have you tried to patch the D1 back to itself, for example main out to ext in or some other combination like that?
And I agree, the presets are mostly a weak demonstration of what the synth is capable of sounding.

Especially with a little resonance, put a Moog ladder filter almost all the way down with a sawtooth wave going into it, then slowly turn it up. Then try that with feedback on a Mini/Boog or the overdrive circuit on a Sub(sequent) 37. There's a growl/buzz/burn sound to my ears that's just not there on other filter designs, and it's really rich. You definitely can overdrive the filter on the Dominion 1, but it's just not the same--and yeah, first thing I did when I got some patch cables was to feed the filter back into the mixer...it's still not the same. OTOH, I can take the oscillators and drive my Behringer Model D and get that same sound.

As to which would pair better with a Rev 2...no idea. I haven't used a Sub 37, though the demos I've heard tend toward more aggressive/thick sounds. The Dominion has a pretty wide range, but from what others say about the Sub 37, it seems like it is a little more work to get to its sweet spots. It definitely has them, though.

Here are some decent non-preset demos of varying musicality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAOAbBVIq7A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYetxtY-Acg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ItpXuMvEso

That should give you a good sense of the range of sounds and its character.
Prophet 12, Modal 002, MFB Dominion 1, Behringer DeepMind 12D, Korg Polysix & EX-8000, Roland JX-8P, Ensoniq SQ-80, Kawai K3m and now an OB-6!

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2019, 09:35:30 PM »
Just to follow up with this - I ended up with the Dominion1 to pair with my Rev2, and I love it! The Dom1 isn't always the most intuitive or easy to use, but the sound is incredible and the keyboard feels so nice.

I'm no "synth god" but I've posted a few jams to Soundcloud if you're interested in hearing the pair. Except for "Area," "The Grey," and "Grit," almost all the tracks use the Rev2 for pads/chords, the Dom1 for leads/arps, and Tanzbar when there are drums. I have some reverb, delay, and occasional RAT on the Dom1, but otherwise pretty much straight recording: https://soundcloud.com/simplerabbit

Re: Subsequent37 or Dominion 1?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2019, 06:55:32 AM »
Just to follow up with this - I ended up with the Dominion1 to pair with my Rev2, and I love it! The Dom1 isn't always the most intuitive or easy to use, but the sound is incredible and the keyboard feels so nice.

I'm no "synth god" but I've posted a few jams to Soundcloud if you're interested in hearing the pair. Except for "Area," "The Grey," and "Grit," almost all the tracks use the Rev2 for pads/chords, the Dom1 for leads/arps, and Tanzbar when there are drums. I have some reverb, delay, and occasional RAT on the Dom1, but otherwise pretty much straight recording: https://soundcloud.com/simplerabbit

Nice! I particularly like "Redwood." Reminds me need to give my Dominion some love.
Prophet 12, Modal 002, MFB Dominion 1, Behringer DeepMind 12D, Korg Polysix & EX-8000, Roland JX-8P, Ensoniq SQ-80, Kawai K3m and now an OB-6!