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Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments

Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« on: June 20, 2018, 11:25:21 AM »
The articles below will be of interest to some forum members.  Whatever may be your opinion of Behringer, their products, and their methods, the fact is, they tried to sue DSI, and a number of us were to one degree or another at risk, due to posted comments.

There will presumably be no commenting on this thread from those mentioned, and that's both understandable and prudent.  I'm not trying to stir up any further trouble over this.  But seriously, the story has some frightening aspects to it and it should be told. 

http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-have-sued-dave-smith-instruments-forum-posters-for-defamation/

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2018/06/20/that-time-behringer-sued-dave-smith-instruments-20-gearslutz-users-for-a-quarter-of-a-million-dollars/

http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-threatens-legal-action-against-a-site-that-called-it-a-copycat/
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 11:53:26 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
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chysn

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2018, 11:46:43 AM »
File under "Don't They Have Anything Better To Do?"
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2018, 12:24:16 PM »
The story speaks for itself.  There's hardly a need to add to it.  A slew of expletives couldn't say it more bluntly than the bare facts.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 01:52:44 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2018, 12:26:04 PM »
The articles below will be of interest to some forum members.  Whatever may be your opinion of Behringer, their products, and their methods, the fact is, they tried to sue DSI, and a number of us were to one degree or another at risk, due to posted comments.

There will presumably be no commenting on this thread from those mentioned, and that's both understandable and prudent.  I'm not trying to stir up any further trouble over this.  But seriously, the story has some frightening aspects to it and it should be told. 

http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-have-sued-dave-smith-instruments-forum-posters-for-defamation/

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2018/06/20/that-time-behringer-sued-dave-smith-instruments-20-gearslutz-users-for-a-quarter-of-a-million-dollars/

http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-threatens-legal-action-against-a-site-that-called-it-a-copycat/
The damage is done. Dave Vs Goliath. Dave won again.

dslsynth

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2018, 01:16:43 PM »
File under "Don't They Have Anything Better To Do?"

Good question! Maybe its about other things than just time?

This is of cause purely speculative but one could consider the actions one is willing to perform when being sued in order to avoid being towed into court. Imagine that the end result is that one is willing to perform actions such as editing existing conversations in own forums in order to avoid legal trouble. So even if the suing part is not going to win the lawsuit and that the suing part ends up spending a lot of money on lawyer expenses it could still end up having desirable effects depending on what the actual goals with the lawsuit are.
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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2018, 01:50:52 PM »
There goes my desire for anything Behringer brings out.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, Origin Effects Cali76 and SlideRig compressor, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.

AlanC

Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2018, 03:40:42 PM »
I'm thinking of a post by Carson on GS about a month ago:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13297646&postcount=1241

Quote
To my understanding, Cool Audio did not disclose that they were owned by Behringer when we inquired with them directly. That was super great of them

We are actively moving away from using Cool Audio parts now that we know.

In light of the above I can only say I'm very glad, and that it makes me think even more highly of DSI. I don't want any of my money going to B.

Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2018, 10:37:11 PM »
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits.

Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2018, 03:02:15 PM »
Does anyone have a list of the GS users that were listed in this action.

I don't seem to be able to access the documents for case CGC17559458 on https://sfsuperiorcourt.org/ I guess because I am not in the USA.

Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2018, 03:07:05 PM »
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits.

It makes me think that they are depserate for money. Which is interesting because if you pause and think....all the stuff they announced they had no indication if any of it would go into production or timeframe if it did. So did they just announce all this stuff with no real capital behind it?
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, Origin Effects Cali76 and SlideRig compressor, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.


dslsynth

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2018, 06:27:10 PM »
It makes me think that they are depserate for money. Which is interesting because if you pause and think....all the stuff they announced they had no indication if any of it would go into production or timeframe if it did. So did they just announce all this stuff with no real capital behind it?

I would recommend being open for multiple possible reasons for such lawsuits and consider if more than one of these could be relevant in this case.
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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2018, 05:28:59 AM »
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits.

Yes, though the history of the MI industry is replete with these types of actions, by multiple instigators. And they always lose, eventually.

In general, we tend to be more sensitive to these things as (manufactured) musical instruments are intended to be expressive tools, recreational purchases, or what have you; they're ultimately not required for survival (or execution of that artistic instinct, as exhibited by those in the poorest world cultures who can make music with ordinary found or crafted natural objects).

We'd like them to be free and clear of any sort of negative context, so that we can enjoy them without looking over our shoulder. Unfortunately for Behringer / musictri.be, that effectively means that I cannot support their enterprise, in any reasonable way, shape or form, until things change at the top*.

As with anything, the best way to change the world is to follow your dollar / euro / pound as it travels along its path, supporting the folks that offer the best long-term value (not price) along the way. And if it means that I'm paying a little extra for a nice bike or a fine bottle of tequila for someone else, then count me in. It'll be worth the extra wait.

* - This is my personal opinion, is executed as such, and is ultimately unactionable. So there.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 05:50:45 AM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Prophet 2000

Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2018, 09:48:41 AM »
I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits

Definitely.  The lawsuits show the striking contrast between the public face of the man and his behavior as a businessman.  I don't think people will easily forget this affair.

The other more chilling effect is that the rest of us may feel prone to self-censorship, purely out of a fear of this sort of intimidation.  I mean, why bother with public forums if you can't state some important unpleasant truths about products or a company - things that will help others assess their options.  It was all instrumental in my deciding not to buy any of his products, and I'm grateful to have had the information provided by other people.  Even if his instruments were inexpensive and of a satisfactory quality, still, I refuse to ever buy from a guy who behaves in such a litigious manner, period.

By contrast, I was highly critical of the Prophet 12 shortly after it first appeared, and for quite a while.  I was really critical.  No one from DSI warned me about my comments or threatened to remove my posts.  I can't tell you how good they were to me, in spite of my negative posts.  Behringer is in such another league from DSI.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:54:45 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
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The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2018, 10:30:42 AM »
More free advertising for him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Oi5jGnr2o
The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.co

megamarkd

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2018, 10:32:29 PM »
I had a small amount of respect for them until this.

The damage is done. Dave Vs Goliath. Dave won again.

The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them.  I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"

chysn

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 03:04:10 AM »
The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them.  I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"

You forgot to add "in my subjective opinion."
DSI: DSM03; previously: Mopho Keyboard, Desktop Mopho, Evolver, DSM01
Hardware: Eurorack, Arturia MicroBrute
Software: macOS, Ableton, MuseScore2
Modular Grid: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/354385
GitHub: https://github.com/chysn

Shaw

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 02:36:52 PM »
The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them.  I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"

You forgot to add "in my subjective opinion."


Behringer makes shit.  Have been doing so for years. 
About a two decade ago, I was considering a Behringer mixer... my trusted Sweetwater rep warned me about their build quality and components. Specifically, he told me I wouldn’t like the “noise to signal” ratio.
I trusted his advice. He is still my Sweetwater rep.  I have still never bought anything made by Behringer.
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

megamarkd

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2018, 08:41:58 PM »
The moniker "Goliath" is too good for them.  I'd sooner use a quote from a great cartoon from the turn of the century named Invader Zim: "You're a hideous blog of stolen organs!"

You forgot to add "in my subjective opinion."

Heheh, yes, I think JV has no control over that IP/content and Nickelodeon don't seem to care what happens to it, but just to be safe I should correctly attribute the quote to Dib and also add the following disclaimer: The statement in my previous post is an opinion and subject to the whims of my daily mood swing/shuffle setting.  It is not reflective of the opinions or beliefs of the forum owner or operators.

It's interesting to note that Behringer have been taken to court over and over again, lost a few times but mostly have got out of any damages.  So I'd think they do have lawyers who understand the law well enough to get around laws (such as circuit schematics not falling under copyright) and would have walked into court knowing full well they are going to be kicked out, especially when the majority of the defendants are nothing more than usernames from a forum with a fairly offensive title.

I think Behringer did incredible damage to their recently rejuvenated brand with these law suits

Definitely.  The lawsuits show the striking contrast between the public face of the man and his behavior as a businessman.  I don't think people will easily forget this affair.

The other more chilling effect is that the rest of us may feel prone to self-censorship, purely out of a fear of this sort of intimidation.  I mean, why bother with public forums if you can't state some important unpleasant truths about products or a company - things that will help others assess their options.  It was all instrumental in my deciding not to buy any of his products, and I'm grateful to have had the information provided by other people.  Even if his instruments were inexpensive and of a satisfactory quality, still, I refuse to ever buy from a guy who behaves in such a litigious manner, period.

By contrast, I was highly critical of the Prophet 12 shortly after it first appeared, and for quite a while.  I was really critical.  No one from DSI warned me about my comments or threatened to remove my posts.  I can't tell you how good they were to me, in spite of my negative posts.  Behringer is in such another league from DSI.

That's all this is in the end; an attempt to censor that which they don't like.  I mean GS have been around yonks so are able to support themselves, but I don't think if Behringer tried to lean on them directly and only them that they would have been able to afford to defend.  Tried and tested tactic is to just appeal your foe into bankruptcy.  Money, money, money......

dslsynth

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Re: Behringer Versus Dave Smith Instruments
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2018, 10:36:00 AM »
Tried and tested tactic is to just appeal your foe into bankruptcy.  Money, money, money......

Sad way to "compete". I have the feeling that "business" and "ethics" are not always very good friends but there ought to be limits to how far such tactics can be taken. Hopefully there are markets with more sensible rules that allows such techniques to be stopped firmly.
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