Yamaha Montage

[Paul Dither]

So, apparently Yamaha is back with a new flagship too. Any thoughts about this one?

http://www.matrixsynth.com/2016/01/namm-rumor-new-yamaha-montage-awm2-fm-x.html

[NemoSynth]

Although the new montage synth seems to have 128 stereo polyphonic AWM2 synth added with 128 voice 8 operator FM synthesis called FM-X, I simply want to have the FM-X synth only. Personally YAMAHA's PCM sounds are too clean for me. Big touch screen and LEDs around the encoders are nice.

[Razmo]

Yeah... give me the 8-OP FM synth in either a rackmount or tabletop module, and I'll probably get one...

[chysn]

I wanted an SY77 for years, but never got one. The idea of a great FM engine plus a sample-based engine in one package seemed really promising. This isn't the sort of thing I'm likely to buy, but I'm with Razmo when he says that a new FM module would be great to have.

[Paul Dither]

From the hacked Montage site:

Welcome to the new era in Synthesizers from the company that brought you the industry-changing DX and the hugely popular Motif.

Building on the legacy of these two iconic keyboards, the Yamaha Montage sets the next milestone for Synthesizers with sophisticated dynamic control, massive sound creation and streamlined workflow all combined in a powerful keyboard designed to inspire your creativity.

If you liked the DX and Motif, get ready to love Montage.

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fusa.yamaha.com&d=54046408837172896&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=UsP4S3v7rkldijUKwJHw8f8GvFfzlcu1#

It doesn't seem to be like the SY77/99. You can combine both engines in a performance, but not per voice, meaning you can't use the AWM2 waveforms for FM purposes. I too, would have been fine with an 8-op-FM engine only.

[BobTheDog]

Looking at that site it just looks like they have just copied loads of the Korg Kronos!

[chysn]

It doesn't seem to be like the SY77/99. You can combine both engines in a performance, but not per voice, meaning you can't use the AWM2 waveforms for FM purposes.

That's a terrible oversight.

[Paul Dither]

That's a terrible oversight.

I agree. I could be wrong, but didn't see this option mentioned anywhere and why would they keep it a secret if it was possible? That's at least how I interpreted this passage:

Motion Control Synthesis Engine unifies and controls two iconic Sound Engines: AWM2 (high-quality waveform and subtractive synthesis) and FM-X (modern, pure Frequency Modulation synthesis.) These two engines can be freely zoned or layered across eight parts in a single MONTAGE Performance.

[dsetto]

https://soundcloud.com/dsetto4/montage-farewell

Here's my initial encounter with the Montage. It's also my first encounter with FM synthesis.

[Shaw]

Has anyone had any experience programming sounds with the FMX engine on this synth?  I’ve read that it is more intuitive than previous Yamaha FM synth engines, but Yamaha is doing such a great job marketing that I can’t find any videos showing it off. 

[Paul Dither]

Has anyone had any experience programming sounds with the FMX engine on this synth?  I’ve read that it is more intuitive than previous Yamaha FM synth engines, but Yamaha is doing such a great job marketing that I can’t find any videos showing it off.

There are a couple of demos that only demonstrate FM sounds made with the Montage and how you can interact with them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAflLkGZ8uA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC-eduYhTx0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlX7es_HkC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWcMGLuY5ek

And here's a tutorial that at least gives you an impression of how to edit FM sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWvSglv3iEA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnkliAhKkjo

[LoboLives]

I really do like what I hear from the Montage. Tried it in the store a few times but I think programming the thing would take hours. It’s a lot of menu diving.

[Shaw]

I really do like what I hear from the Montage. Tried it in the store a few times but I think programming the thing would take hours. It’s a lot of menu diving.

I'm liking what I hear as well, but I don't think programming it would be as tedious as you might expect.  Not with that big LCD screen, and not with Yamaha's placing all edits at the Performance layer (as opposed to 8 or 16 different layers).


And with the sliders and knobs, it looks like FM programming / experimentation could be quite easy and intuitive.  I'm in the market for either a Wavetable or FM synth -- I know they two concepts are quite different, but in one fundamental area they are the same. A hallmark sound for both is the changing of waveforms over time -- albeit they are done in different ways, but the end results are similar. And with the way Yamaha has implemented modulation in the Montage, many of those FM pads sound more like Waldorf than DX7.

[LoboLives]

I really do like what I hear from the Montage. Tried it in the store a few times but I think programming the thing would take hours. It’s a lot of menu diving.

I'm liking what I hear as well, but I don't think programming it would be as tedious as you might expect.  Not with that big LCD screen, and not with Yamaha's placing all edits at the Performance layer (as opposed to 8 or 16 different layers).


And with the sliders and knobs, it looks like FM programming / experimentation could be quite easy and intuitive.  I'm in the market for either a Wavetable or FM synth -- I know they two concepts are quite different, but in one fundamental area they are the same. A hallmark sound for both is the changing of waveforms over time -- albeit they are done in different ways, but the end results are similar. And with the way Yamaha has implemented modulation in the Montage, many of those FM pads sound more like Waldorf than DX7.

Yeah I'm in the same market for those sound as well. My fingers are crossed for DSI to come up with something at NAMM with FM/VS/Wavetable stuff incorporated.

The Montage reminds me sound wise of the Synclavier and I spent a good while with it at the local shop here doing loads of FM patches mixed with AMW2 sounds. It can do DX7 and a heck of a lot more and I can just imagine this thing in the mix layered with the Prophet 6 or Moog. What a sound that would be.

[AlanC]

Has anyone had any experience programming sounds with the FMX engine on this synth?  I’ve read that it is more intuitive than previous Yamaha FM synth engines, but Yamaha is doing such a great job marketing that I can’t find any videos showing it off.

It wouldn't make for a very exciting video. Basically you spend all your time jumping around between just two screens for each operator. The process is to create a new performance with an FM-X part, choose the algorithm:



Then edit the operators by selecting them using the '1' to '8' buttons at the bottom of the screen or the hardware buttons to the right of the display. Selecting an operator gives you two screens. Form and frequency:



and level:



You touch the parameter you want to edit and enter a new value using the data entry controls or an on-screen numeric keypad. You can also edit the levels of the operators using the eight sliders.

There's loads of other stuff you can use to modulate parameters such as the controllers, motion sequencers and envelope followers, and there are a large range of destinations, but basic FM programming is easier than any of the other Yamaha FM synths I've owned (DX7, TX802, SY77) thanks to the tabbed interface that has just two levels. It's still FM, though, so it feels like you're forever editing envelopes.

[Shaw]

Has anyone had any experience programming sounds with the FMX engine on this synth?  I’ve read that it is more intuitive than previous Yamaha FM synth engines, but Yamaha is doing such a great job marketing that I can’t find any videos showing it off.

It wouldn't make for a very exciting video. Basically you spend all your time jumping around between just two screens for each operator. The process is to create a new performance with an FM-X part, choose the algorithm:

Alan, thanks a million for the breakdown. So it sounds as if (from my perspective at least) FM will be approachable (even if still foreign).  I’ve never owned an FM synth, but I understand the concepts. 

[AlanC]

Alan, thanks a million for the breakdown. So it sounds as if (from my perspective at least) FM will be approachable (even if still foreign).  I’ve never owned an FM synth, but I understand the concepts.

If you do decide to give it a try then I reckon you'll find that FM isn't difficult, it's just that it's not particularly obvious how to find some of the basic sounds. Some examples: using a modulator / carrier pair with ratios of 1:1 gives the classic DX piano sound, 2:1 is hollow and woody (square wave), 1:2 with a feedback loop on the modulator is brassy (sawtooth), 3.5:1 is bell-like. Three operators in a stack with ratios 1:2:1 is reedy (pulse wave).

FM-X has the advantage that the spectral forms of each operator can produce some of those basics directly so you can frequently use one operator instead of an FM pair or operator with a feedback loop which, together with the fact you've got eight operators, makes it capable of more complex sounds. I've been able to make some string / pad type sounds that have a lot of movement in them and which are very different to the sort of sounds I've previously associated with FM.

It seems odd that the FM-X side of the Montage doesn't get talked about more: it's Yamaha's best implementation of FM to date, it's significantly more capable than the earlier versions, and it sounds really good.

[Shaw]

Alan, thanks a million for the breakdown. So it sounds as if (from my perspective at least) FM will be approachable (even if still foreign).  I’ve never owned an FM synth, but I understand the concepts.

If you do decide to give it a try then I reckon you'll find that FM isn't difficult, it's just that it's not particularly obvious how to find some of the basic sounds. Some examples: using a modulator / carrier pair with ratios of 1:1 gives the classic DX piano sound, 2:1 is hollow and woody (square wave), 1:2 with a feedback loop on the modulator is brassy (sawtooth), 3.5:1 is bell-like. Three operators in a stack with ratios 1:2:1 is reedy (pulse wave).

Those ratios seem like great starting points. Again, thank you.  Just curious, do you (or anyone else here) have any suggestions for reading materials on FM synthesis?

[AlanC]

Just curious, do you (or anyone else here) have any suggestions for reading materials on FM synthesis?

I got my DX7 way back in '83, so I pretty much had to learn for myself. I have a copy of David Bristow & John Chowning's book "FM Theory & Applications" somewhere; there's a PDF copy online here: http://www.burnkit2600.com/manuals/fm_theory_and_applications.pdf.

There are probably easier/better ways to get going now. I vaguely remember someone writing a set of tutorials for the SY77 that seemed to do a pretty good job of explaining the basics of FM before branching off into details specific to that particular implementation. If I can find it I'll post a link.

Edit:

It was this: http://chrisarndt.de/files/yamaha/SY%20Programming%20v0.40.pdf

Probably a bit too SY77/99 specific, but it does have a section that explains how the various operator arrangements within an algorithm generate different types of sound.

[tumble2k]

Thanks! Those are great sources that I will read carefully. FM is amazingly powerful considering the relatively low processor power required for its implementation.