Key Size

Sacred Synthesis

Key Size
« on: January 14, 2016, 08:14:36 AM »
I get a sense from reading various forums on the subject of key size that some folks feel those of us who insist on full-sized keys, rather than mini or slim-sized, are simply full of ourselves, that this preference is a sort of aristocratic high-browed snobbishness.  As if the ordinary Joe six-pack is humble enough to use miniature keys, simply because he's an ordinary Joe.  And to object to this must mean that a person is a snob who feels they're far too good for miniature keys.  I see comments along these lines often enough and simply wanted to give the other side.   

For me, it's a simple issue of maintaining a standard key size for the sake of improving my playing every time I play a keyboard.  For example, I would like an octave leap to always be the same physical distance from note to note, so that the accuracy of my playing octave leaps without looking is always maintained and even improved in its accuracy.  Shrinking that distance is bound to have bad effects when I return to full-sized keys.  And remember, the small key sizes vary; there's the "mini", and now there's also the "slim".  So, you could potentially be playing three different key sizes within a minute, which would only maximize your potential for hitting the wrong key.  I know this because I've switched back and forth between key sizes before, and the first few moments especially are sloppy ones when you're making the mental adjustment.  Not to mention the fact that I'm often playing two keyboards at the same time, and using different key sizes between hands would only add to the confusion.  Playing well for me is already difficult enough; why would I make it even more difficult?

Personally, the most important part of a synthesizer is the keyboard.  If the keyboard is poor for whatever reason, I'm no longer interested in the electronic capabilities of the synthesizer because it's already failed the first and foremost test.  I might as well have a module instead.  Fortunately, DSI's keyboards are at least decent. 

Many people use their synthesizers primarily for making sounds and effects, as well as for sequencing and arpeggiating.  In such cases, it only makes sense that key size wouldn't be too important.  But I don't do any of that; I simply design a sound and play the instrument's keyboard.  So, for all of these reasons, I would not compromise on the keyboard.  And if there were only mini keyboards available for synthesizers, I'd quit the synthesizer domain and take up another keyboard instrument.  Before I'm a synthesist, I'm a keyboardist, an organist.

Of all the posts and comments I've read on this subject, there seems to be one consistent rational for mini keys: cost.  In other words, it's not that people are generally demanding mini keys for their own sake.  Rather, they're willing to compromise on the keyboard for the sake of getting a synthesizer with impressive capabilities at a modest price.  I don't think I've ever come across an argument for mini keys based on an actual preference for their size; it's just that synthesists are flexible because the keyboard is often seen as a trigger for sounds, like any other trigger, like a row of "Push It" buttons or an ordinary on/off switch.  So be it.  It comes down to your priorities as a synthesist and a musician and what meets your needs. 

Nowadays, people like to have a ton of equipment - lots of non-keyboard gear for beats and effects - and in the middle of this crowded mayhem, the miniature synthesizer fits in nicely.  The small size certainly makes sense.  That suits certain types of music.  But I have no need for such gear, and so, I prefer to put all of my resources into several high-quality full-sized keyboard synthesizers.   
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 10:17:50 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Razmo

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Re: Key Size
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2016, 08:58:55 AM »
Keyboard preference is a personal thing, not something I compare with snobbery or anything... people have personal needs... some may like minikeys, others may like slim keys... others again may only want full size... then there is the big question of aftertouch and velocity feel... not to mention if it's hammer action, semi-weighted or synth action... and then this question about how many octaves.

Someone who is not a skilled player may find minikeys and 2-3 octaves enough, and do not care about aftertouch, simply because they usually record stuff via one finger at a time... others may like the compact size if they have loads of on-stage gear... the performer is usually more "demanding", in that they want the keys to be capable of doing some live performance. Hammer action is usually for the piano type player, which is way too heavy for those who wants fast synth parts played etc. etc.

I find it stupid to debate this subject, as everyone has a personal reason for wanting what they want... classifying some as lesser, and others greater is just dumb really. People should get what works for them, and not give a s*** about what others think about it... period  :)

Personally, I'd like just ONE really good quality semi-weighted keyboard, that has at least 61 keys, responsive aftertouch and velocity... a simple pitch and mod wheel, and really nothing more... I don't need more than that, and if I had just this one keyboard, I'd learn to work with it, and not have to switch between different keys on different synths... also it's space saving.... but unfortunately, finding THAT one keyboard is really hard... something is always wrong with what I currently have.... right now, it's the aftertouch that is shit on my V-Synth GT, and the keys make a lot of contact noise.

Maybe some day I'll find the perfect keyboard for me... but it'll not be mini or slim keys... not because I'm pro og raised above someone else, but because this is the size I'm used to, and that fit's my finger-width... because that's what works for me.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 09:00:51 AM by Razmo »
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Re: Key Size
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2016, 09:40:37 AM »
Key size doesn't bother me at all, but I'm an awful keyboard player.

I do play strings though and can play instruments of any scale length, maybe thats why I don't mind different size keys.

I much prefer playing my linnstrument that any keyboard and thats got tiny keys!

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Key Size
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2016, 09:53:55 AM »
I realize that among synthesists my view may be the unpopular one.  But I only wanted to give an explanation of it in light of the often expressed opinion that suggests there really is no good reason for preferring full-sized keys to smaller ones; hence, it must come from an attitude of some sort, such as arrogance or superiority.  I can promise everyone on this forum that, not once while playing my instruments, have I had even a passing thought - good or bad - of those who play mini keys!  It's simply a non-issue until I get on the Internet.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Key Size
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2016, 10:03:37 AM »
I find it stupid to debate this subject, as everyone has a personal reason for wanting what they want... classifying some as lesser, and others greater is just dumb really. People should get what works for them, and not give a s*** about what others think about it... period  :)

Razmo, I agree with everything in your post except the above.  My original post was meant, not as a debate (But then again, what's wrong with debates?), but only as an attempt to provide an explanation for a preference, and especially, why that preference has nothing nasty about it and nothing to do with snobbishness.  And I tried to express this as mildly as possible, without any edges.

Right, different key sizes for different people and purposes.  I totally agree.  But there are reasons for both, and I wanted to give those reasons from my side, since I'm constantly reading about the other side. 

We can handle this, folks.  All is calm. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 10:21:19 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Razmo

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Re: Key Size
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2016, 10:20:49 AM »
I find it stupid to debate this subject, as everyone has a personal reason for wanting what they want... classifying some as lesser, and others greater is just dumb really. People should get what works for them, and not give a s*** about what others think about it... period  :)

Razmo, I agree with everything in your post except the above.  My original post was meant, not as a debate (But then, what's wrong with debates?), but only to provide an explanation for a preference, and especially, why that preference has nothing nasty about it and why it has nothing to do with snobbishness.  And I tried to express this as mildly as possible, without any edges.

Right, different key sizes for different people and purposes.  I totally agree.  But there are reasons for both and I wanted to give those reasons from my side. 

We can handle this, folks.  All is calm.

Oh... I may have put it the wrong way because I certainly don't mind the debate... what I meant was, the debate should not really be a necessity at all, if people just respected other peoples choices... afterall, no one who likes minikeys is forcing those who do not like them to use them... the same is true for any other type of keybed.

The debate should rather include, WHY some companies seem to put them in their synths... it seems to be only the three big companies that does this... Roland, Yamaha and Korg... why? ... they would not be doing it if it meant that no one wants to buy the synths.... but I feel that thats where the problem lies... because I think many actualy buy them anyway because they really want the synth, and have no choice, and I believe many may even put them up as "modules" instead.

Another funny aspect of this minikeys annoyance I see very often is; What are the advantages? ... I can only think of compactness as the sole reason, and maybe lower cost... but what about the users? ... have anyone ever heard any user of minikeys state that they prefer these for playing?... I've not heard anyone say why minikeys are better than fullsize keys, and if no one prefer minikeys to full size, you can only wonder why these companies use them at all.

I can see the point in VERY compact synths, and with lowcost synths, where it sort of goes together... but there are products from KORG where I really think WHY!? ... MS20, Oddysey... and now the Minilogue..... same goes for Roland's JD-Xi.

On the other hand... if you want compact, then would you rather have a 2 octave fullsize, or a 3 octave minikeys?

Personaly I find this trend of compactness weird... it sure is nice to have your synths compact, but then why not just make the synth as a module instead, and let people decide what keys they want to use with it... it's like they think that it will sell better, if it at least has minikeys onboard.

I've seen several synths lately that I'd really like to have, were they just made as modules... JD-Xi, Bass Station 2... Monologue etc.

If the minikeys were because it's practical "on the go", so that you can jam anywhere on the go, I could see the point... but many of these synths do not even come battery powered as far as I recall, so that misses the point.
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Sacred Synthesis

Re: Key Size
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2016, 10:30:57 AM »
What I meant was, the debate should not really be a necessity at all, if people just respected other peoples choices.

Exactly.  But that's not the case.  Perhaps when you're reading the forums, this subject doesn't jump out at you.  It jumps out at me because I have the preference that is often criticized.  So, rather than start an argument, I'm simply offering an explanation for a preference.  Nor am I insisting on mine; I'm just explaining it.  Besides, some people wonder what the fuss is about and why some of us will accept nothing less than full-sized keys, even when an instrument may otherwise be excellent, such as with the Minilogue or Korg ARP Odyssey. 

« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 10:51:15 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Re: Key Size
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2016, 10:59:26 AM »
I think the reason they put small keys on is because they sell well, there is a large set of people that use plugins and DAWs, a small factor keyboard is perfect for these people. These people far outnumber the people who want a 5, 6 or 7 octave quality keyboard.

I would love to see the figure of people "Producing" songs that have any real keyboard skills at all. My guess is that is a huge amount more than the number of skilled key players.

I don't think it is snobbish for someone to judge a keyboard based on key size for their own use, but it is snobbish to judge it's value on that factor.

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Re: Key Size
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2016, 12:10:54 PM »
I have a strong preference for full-sized (7/8" wide) keys if I expect something to be my primary instrument. Mini (or slim) keys would rule an instrument out for that role, for me. That's why the Odyssey reissue was a bitter disappointment for me, because I thought it might fill a particular role, but the Little Phatty wound up filing that role instead.

It seems like Korg does this not for compactness, but in some bid to avoid upsetting the vintage market. And that's sort of annoying.
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Re: Key Size
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2016, 12:37:46 PM »
I too do prefer full-sized keys if I have the choice, but then I have also been trained classical piano and organ as a young man. I absolutely understand and accept both ways though.

The debate whether or not a synthesizer should have a keyboard at all goes back until the days of the Moog modular system and the advent of the Minimoog. Back in the day, Moog had two choices, which have been problematized extensively: either the synthesizer is going to be something completely new and different, free from any preconceived notion and hence also any link to the western musical tradition, or one embeds it into that musical tradition by adding an aspect of familiarity to it, namely a keyboard, which might attract more buyers than just academically interested people. There are enough good reasons for doing it both ways. In terms of innovation and non-conformist rigidity, the first way - the keyboard-less way - is of course more convincing. There was indeed no need to attach a keyoard to a synth, which is also a rather primitive controller when it comes to how it operates in the realm of voltages. Nevertheless, the keyboard synthesizer became the most famous one and helped gaining the synthesizer's popularity. But the continued musical tradition it ended up being used in also prevented it from coming to its own on a larger scale. Most musicians were using it for mimetic purposes: sounds like brasses, flutes, strings were certainly more popular than the type of noises that were unique and only a synth could do. So in that sense, the unfolding of the synth's full potential was hindered by a certain conservatism, which I don't mean in a judgemental way.

Why am I doing this excourse? - Well, ever since the reoccurence of modular synths and the advent of new analog hardware, things have changed. Today's young generation rediscovers the future of the synth's past that was never really fullfilled, except amongst a couple of geeks in the academic context. I'm a member of an electronic music group that is meeting on a monthly basis at Nashville's SAE Institute. The age of the members range from late teens to early 60s. One thing I discovered is that almost everybody below 30 is heavily into modular synths (Eurorack or Synthesizers.com) and circuit bending and doesn't obtain a formal musical education. Keyboards are certainly no priority for them. And neither is the wish to get the highest possible quality items in terms of pricing. One gets what one can afford and makes the best of it. The latter, of course, also applies to the rest of that group. Given the average economical situation of everybody, only very few would consider to buy a synth above $1,000 - at least not if they're not in any way professionals that will gain revenue from using an instrument by simply doing their job.

Another aspect is important: portability. Ever since people rediscovered the advantages of hardware over software in terms of immediate control and making the interaction with an instrument a physical experience again, playing live has become increasingly popular. One thing you don't wanna bother about is logistical issues, when all you wanna do is playing in front of an audience. The smaller your gear, the more flexible you are. (Didn't we all envy the other musicians in a band at some point, except for the drummer?) This even affects the way some people prefer to record. Lots of young synth enthusiasts I talk to like to record in a live setup instead of a carefully arranged multitrack environment. If it makes the process more convenient, they also prefer not to touch the computer at all and rather record on tape. In that sense, MIDI for example is pretty much no issue for some of them, because it's not really relevant in their field anyway.

Where am I going with this? - In short: portability and affordability will always win, especially for those who are rather young (but I know of many cases beyond that). That's also why minikeys are welcome to most current performers. No one may have asked for them, but the majority also doesn't mind, since at least they help to save space. Furthermore - and this has always been the case - genuine electronic music doesn't necessarily require full-sized, if any keys. After all, the advent of keyboard synthesizers was a matter of contingency. History could have been very different as well.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 12:40:37 PM by Paul Dither »

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Re: Key Size
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2016, 02:36:47 PM »
That's a good point. I wouldn't mind seeing a glimpse of the "Buchla Wins" alternate reality where we all have crazy wheels and pads.
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Re: Key Size
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2016, 08:05:36 AM »
Although I'm probably closer to being the producer with a studio full of gear than a live performer or player, I still struggle with anything other than full-size keys. The only mini-keyed thing I have is the MS-20mini and I treat like a module. The keys themselves are literally gathering dust. The rest of the synths here are for playing, however incompetently, and sketching out ideas. I can do that on full-size keys without looking.

A parallel to this is scale lengths on different guitars. My main guitar, a Jazzmaster, is a full 25.5in scale length. One of my other guitars is a Jaguar, which has a slightly shorter scale length of 24in. I find it almost impossible to switch between them without fumbling chords, and the difference there is much less than the difference between full-size and mini-keys.

Personally, I would hesitate before buying another mini-keyed instrument. Instruments are such tactile things and I don't feel the same connection to a synth I don't want to physically play. I struggle with modules and soft synths for the same reason.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Key Size
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2016, 08:47:21 AM »
Good points, Fuseball.  As I said in the original post, and as others have said in their own ways, I haven't yet come across a rational for mini keys among mini keys users, other than the economic issue - that it allows you to get a synthesizer for a lower price tag.  I don't think it can be denied that having both mini and full-sized keys and regularly going back and forth between them, cannot but increase the probability of hitting wrong notes, especially in the first few seconds of switching from one to the other.  That has been my experience, and it settles the issue for me; wrong notes are the enemy!

One other issue is the esoteric one.  I do think synthesists are a special group, that we tend to like being a bit esoteric among other musicians as we huddle behind masses of equipment with blinking lights and wires everywhere.  It has a bit of the mad scientist look to it.  I realize guitarists can be similar with their gear, but synthesists seem to be especially gear oriented.  I think mini keys increase this feeling, in that one has an instrument that is strange or atypical.  Even many keyboardists would look at a miniature keyboard as an oddity.  Show a mini keyboard to a classical organist or pianist and you'll see what I mean.

This is where I appreciate a respect for the full-sized keyboard.  It keeps you in closer contact with the rest of the keyboard music world and prevents you from becoming too much of a synthesist.  For example, I realize exceptions exist (Yamaha Reface), but the typical organ has full-sized keys, as does the typical piano.  If one has several different types of keyboards, then having the same sized keys on each one of them is only going to make playing them easier and avoiding bad notes more likely.  Going from organ to piano to synthesizer will have a smoother transition if they all have the same key size. 

I prefer not to slip into the esoteric synthesist world too much, but to be a musician first and foremost - the type of musician who happens to play synthesizer.  Some might call this view "traditional" or even "conservative," and I'm perfectly content with either description.  The concern is, whatever best serves the performing of keyboard music without making mistakes.  Again, wrong notes are the enemy! 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 09:37:25 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Razmo

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Re: Key Size
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2016, 08:54:50 AM »
Good points, Fuseball.  As I said in the original post, and as others have said in their own ways, I haven't yet come across a rational for mini keys among mini keys users, other than the economic issue - that it allows you to get a synthesizer for a lower price tag.  I don't think it can be denied that having both mini and full-sized keys and regularly going back and forth between them, cannot but increase the probability of hitting wrong notes, especially in the first few seconds of switching from one to the other.  That has been my experience, and it settles the issue for me; mistakes are the enemy!

One other issue is the esoteric one.  I do think synthesists are a special group, that we tend to like being a bit esoteric among other musicians.  I think mini keys increase this feeling, in that one has an instrument that is a-typical.  At least, many keyboardists would look at a miniature keyboard as an oddity.  Show a mini keyboard to a classical organist or pianist and you'll see what I mean.

This is where I appreciate a respect for the full-sized keyboard.  It keeps you in contact with the rest of the music world and prevents you from becoming too much of a synthesist.  For example, I realize exceptions exist (Yamaha Reface), but the typical organ has full-sized keys, as does the typical piano.  If one has several different types of keyboards, then having the same sized keys on each one of them is only going to make playing them easier and avoiding bad notes more likely.  Going from organ to piano to synthesizer will have a smoother transition.  I prefer not to slip into the esoteric synthesist world, but to be a musician first and foremost , and the type of musician who plays synthesizers.  Some might call this view "traditional" or even "conservative", and I'm perfectly content with either description.  The concern is, whatever best serves the performing of keyboard music without mistakes.

Though I don't have those rationals myself with minikeys, I do think that there are more than just pricepoint... compactness IS an issue if you're a giggin' musician, especialy todays electronic musicians that use a pletora of different small gadget synths... I often see them standing in front of a tabletop, litteraly filled with all their small gadgets interconnected... pedals, drummachines, grooveboxes etc.... I can certainly see those users wanting a compact synth with a mini keyboard.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 08:57:06 AM by Razmo »
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Razmo

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Re: Key Size
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2016, 08:59:15 AM »
I actualy like the way Roland thought the Boutique synths out... Making the keys an addon... I wish they would do this more in the industry, so that people can decide themselves if they want those minikeys to take up space, and if they want a full-size keyboard, could attach a keyboard controller of their own choice.
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Sacred Synthesis

Re: Key Size
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2016, 09:06:15 AM »
Though I don't have those rationals myself with minikeys, I do think that there are more than just pricepoint... compactness IS an issue if you're a giggin' musician, especialy todays electronic musicians that use a pletora of different small gadget synths... I often see them standing in front of a tabletop, litteraly filled with all their small gadgets interconnected... pedals, drummachines, grooveboxes etc.... I can certainly see those users wanting a compact synth with a mini keyboard.

Right, and I said that in my original post.  It's about both cost and space, but from what I read, the former seems to be the primary reason.  Any way, I'm glad we can all have an intelligent exchange on this issue because it's been handled in the past superficially, as if there's no good reason to prefer full-sized keys other than attitude.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Key Size
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2016, 09:07:52 AM »
I actualy like the way Roland thought the Boutique synths out... Making the keys an addon... I wish they would do this more in the industry, so that people can decide themselves if they want those minikeys to take up space, and if they want a full-size keyboard, could attach a keyboard controller of their own choice.

Yeah, but if only Roland had given the Boutiques full-sized control panels!  Can you really make a smooth filter sweep with a slider that small?  Right - use the modulation ribbon.  I know, I know, I shouldn't have said it, but....
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 09:12:59 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Key Size
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2016, 09:47:19 AM »
And now, to repost Chris' nuanced response to the comment, "Maybe DSI are going to follow the current trend of releasing some little synths with mini keys."

"No.

No.

No.

No.

No."

As usual, nothing but vagueness from the staff....

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Re: Key Size
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2016, 09:57:46 AM »
I actualy like the way Roland thought the Boutique synths out... Making the keys an addon... I wish they would do this more in the industry, so that people can decide themselves if they want those minikeys to take up space, and if they want a full-size keyboard, could attach a keyboard controller of their own choice.

Yeah, but if only Roland had given the Boutiques full-sized control panels!  Can you really make a smooth filter sweep with a slider that small?  Right - use the modulation ribbon.  I know, I know, I shouldn't have said it, but....

I think the Boutique series was made for women... they tend to like small things ;)

No... personaly I think it's a bit too fiddly being so small...
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Re: Key Size
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2016, 10:02:19 AM »
Besides... has anyone in this thread actualy tried the slimline keys? ... are they really that hard to play? ... I can understand that you would have to get used to the difference in scale length, but once this is done, do you make many errors hitting wrong notes?

I'm asking because, personaly I would not mind if I had to get used to a slimline keyboard if it was the only keyboard I was to play (master keyboard) ... I can definitely see two advantages in my case with a slimline approach... 1. The space that is required on my tabletop (this is a HUGE issue! I want my controller keyboard right in front of me!) ... and 2. The slightly less range scale... that would allow my fingers to reach notes easier, and even some at the extreme that my fingers would not normaly be able to, when my hand is holding more than one key down.
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