The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.

Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« on: December 09, 2017, 07:46:24 PM »
Hi everybody,

Last week I got my brand new Prophet-6 (with OS version 1.4.0). I'm generally really happy with it and the sound it produces. However, there's one aspect that's really bugging my workflow and that's what turning Local Control off does with the synth and its connection with my DAW.

I'm using Ableton Live 9 and I have it connected with P6 via MIDI (I've tried USB too and it's the same problem). When keeping Local Control ON, the synth works as it's supposed to. However, my way of producing would really need the P6 to have Local Control turned off. This is because I bought the keyboard version of it just to be able to use it as a master keyboard to also control my other hardware synths and VSTs. When Local Control is off the modulation parameters of the synth start behaving erratically.

Examples:
  • When turning one knob it will suddenly modulate something else. For example the Pan Spread knob or the Sub Octave knob will modulate the cutoff of the low-pass filter instead of doing what they're assigned for. Or the Distort knob will modulate the frequency of one of the oscillators. Or some other random behaviour.

    Here's a short video I recorded demonstrating the phenomenon: https://streamable.com/bs1ju

  • I can turn on the Effects and turn them off. But after that it's frozen and I can't turn them on anymore.
  • To summarize: The synth is useless for me with these settings. Can't work with it. My solution right now is to have local control ON and mute its own audio channel in Live everytime I want to control another hardware synth or VST.

I'm guessing the above mentioned behaviours are caused by midi data loops. Could I be right about that?

My questions:
  • Is there anyway to solve this problem with the possible midi data loops?
  • How are you others implementing the P6 in the workflow together with your DAW when also wanting to use it as a master keyboard?
  • Do you think DSI will implement a partial local control off in the future? So that only the keybed is disconnected from the local control but the knobs/modulation controlled internally? That would solve the problem in an easy way.


Thanks in advance for any input. I'd really like to find some kind of solution to this. Frustrating!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 07:49:18 PM by virion »

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 02:13:48 AM »
I believe he problem lies in the fact that ableton doesnít natively handle NRPN messages, which are necessary for using the P6 with a DAW. CC just isnít viable and you run into all sorts of glitches as youíve described. Iíve read somewhere that there is some sort of max for live instrument that adds nrpn support, so that might be something to look into.

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 09:53:29 AM »

My questions:
  • Do you think DSI will implement a partial local control off in the future? So that only the keybed is disconnected from the local control but the knobs/modulation controlled internally? That would solve the problem in an easy way.


Thanks in advance for any input. I'd really like to find some kind of solution to this. Frustrating!

I asked for partial local off control two years ago.
https://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,157.msg1319.html

They didn't change the local mode since then so I don't have much hope they will implement it ever.
Though it is still my main grief with the P~6 and one reason I did not buy the OB6.

I was using the same "workaround" like you: set the P~6 *local on* and turn down the volume every time when "remotely" playing other instruments.

I also informed me about other options:
there a multiport interfaces with programmable MIDI filters and routing options available.
The idea is to connect the P~6 solely to a single port.
Then you can set the P~6 *local off* but permanently filter and reroute the NRPN data (knobs and buttons) back to itself in the interface.

But all this is error prone, expensive and too complicated for me so my sad solution at the end was to give up and use an other synth for *Master Keyboard* purpose.

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 11:45:44 AM »

I asked for partial local off control two years ago.
https://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,157.msg1319.html

They didn't change the local mode since then so I don't have much hope they will implement it ever.
Though it is still my main grief with the P~6 and one reason I did not buy the OB6.

I was using the same "workaround" like you: set the P~6 *local on* and turn down the volume every time when "remotely" playing other instruments.

I also informed me about other options:
there a multiport interfaces with programmable MIDI filters and routing options available.
The idea is to connect the P~6 solely to a single port.
Then you can set the P~6 *local off* but permanently filter and reroute the NRPN data (knobs and buttons) back to itself in the interface.

But all this is error prone, expensive and too complicated for me so my sad solution at the end was to give up and use an other synth for *Master Keyboard* purpose.

Wow, that's bad news :( I asked around on forums before buying it if it would be a good master MIDI keyboard and only got positive recommendations. Now I almost wish I had got the desktop version with an NI Komplete Kontrol instead..

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 12:33:39 PM »

I asked for partial local off control two years ago.
https://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,157.msg1319.html

They didn't change the local mode since then so I don't have much hope they will implement it ever.
Though it is still my main grief with the P~6 and one reason I did not buy the OB6.

I was using the same "workaround" like you: set the P~6 *local on* and turn down the volume every time when "remotely" playing other instruments.

I also informed me about other options:
there a multiport interfaces with programmable MIDI filters and routing options available.
The idea is to connect the P~6 solely to a single port.
Then you can set the P~6 *local off* but permanently filter and reroute the NRPN data (knobs and buttons) back to itself in the interface.

But all this is error prone, expensive and too complicated for me so my sad solution at the end was to give up and use an other synth for *Master Keyboard* purpose.

Wow, that's bad news :( I asked around on forums before buying it if it would be a good master MIDI keyboard and only got positive recommendations. Now I almost wish I had got the desktop version with an NI Komplete Kontrol instead..

You may have been asking in the wrong places - IMHO, the best possible option is a multi-timbral synthesizer that allows you to map its own keyboard zones to external MIDI instruments; otherwse, there's no reason to expect that a bi-timbral synthesizer would make a good MIDI master controller (which IMHO should have re-mappable CCs, NRPNs, multiple keyboard zones, etc.Ėand no less than 61 keys!).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 12:43:49 PM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI / Pioneer stuff: Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, TORAIZ AS-1, Prophet-600 Gligli, Prophet 2000

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 10:08:02 AM »
One weird thing about this matter is that my friend, who owns an OB-6, can use his synth in Ableton Live with NRPN and Local Control off without any issues!

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 03:27:45 AM »
probably not unless they were using this:
http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/4123/ob-6-nrpn-controller

or this (which should work for the Prophet 6):
http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/2203/nrpn-gen

I haven't compared the nrpn charts of both to see how different they are, but I wouldn't be surprised if the OB6 controller works with the Prophet with maybe a little wonkyness.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 03:31:01 AM by wetfood »

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2017, 02:10:28 PM »
Yeah, I agree it's really strange. But it's actually working for him. Here he's using the OB-6 in Live 9 with NRPN and Local control off without M4L and without any wonkyness: https://streamable.com/4qkkj

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2017, 04:21:36 PM »
wow, now I'm truly confused. Sorry I doubted you!

Is automation fully functional?

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2018, 03:15:59 PM »
In the meantime I have purchased an iConnectivity mio2 interface for the sole purpose to fix the MIDI local issue.
Read here how to set it up:
http://squarp.community/t/help-needed-to-setup-prophet-6-as-main-keyboard/103/23

I am happy so far, it works quite well.

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 04:35:02 PM »
Bumping this as a feature request for a "partial Local Ctrl mode" feature.

I really don't want to buy a iConnectivity mio2 interface just to use the P6 as a master keyboard.  It's a shame as the P6 has such a nice Fatar keybed.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 04:38:40 PM by mangobob »

ddp

Re: Prophet-6 and Local Control OFF - once and for all.
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 09:19:42 PM »
I believe he problem lies in the fact that ableton doesnít natively handle NRPN messages, which are necessary for using the P6 with a DAW. CC just isnít viable and you run into all sorts of glitches as youíve described. Iíve read somewhere that there is some sort of max for live instrument that adds nrpn support, so that might be something to look into.

1++
Buchla Music Easel, MP11SE, Subsequent, Minimoog, Etherwave, Prophet 6, Prophet X, Tempest, Polyend SEQ, Live w/ Push 2