Waldorf KB37 —> Eurorack Entry

[Shaw]

I’m thinking of getting a Waldorf KB37 as a foray into Eurocrack... any of our modular users on here have any experience or words of wisdom
I had originally l thought about the Moog Model D, but then realized that with this new Waldorf unit, I can build my own 3 OSC mono that would be a) more flexible in terms of modulation and using various oscillator styles, and b) open to future expansion / swapping of modules.


Thoughts?

[chysn]

A few things to consider about the KB37.

(1) It doesn't have a 5V rail. So when you select your modules, watch the power requirements. For the most part, it won't limit you too much. If you find a module that you absolutely love that requires 5V power, Doepfer makes an inline 5V regulator.

(2) 107HP is smallish. Certainly you could get a 3-oscillator synth into it with careful module choices, but it's likely that eventually the KB37 would house a subset of your modules.

(3) You might find that you don't need a keyboard. When I first started building my modular, I assumed that it would be a desktop module controlled with a keyboard. That turned out not to be the case (for me). The modular became a standalone musical instrument and I hardly ever use it with a keyboard.

With those things in mind, I would unreservedly encourage you to get into eurorack. It's a lot of fun, and it's satisfying to work toward perfecting your instrument to your unique vision.

If you're weighing KB37+modules against the Model D, the economic question is, "Can I build something better than a Model D for the same price as a Model D using a KB37?" The answer is "absolutely, unless you want to reproduce a Model D."

[Shaw]

A few things to consider about the KB37.

(1) It doesn't have a 5V rail. So when you select your modules, watch the power requirements. For the most part, it won't limit you too much. If you find a module that you absolutely love that requires 5V power, Doepfer makes an inline 5V regulator.

(2) 107HP is smallish. Certainly you could get a 3-oscillator synth into it with careful module choices, but it's likely that eventually the KB37 would house a subset of your modules.

(3) You might find that you don't need a keyboard. When I first started building my modular, I assumed that it would be a desktop module controlled with a keyboard. That turned out not to be the case (for me). The modular became a standalone musical instrument and I hardly ever use it with a keyboard.

With those things in mind, I would unreservedly encourage you to get into eurorack. It's a lot of fun, and it's satisfying to work toward perfecting your instrument to your unique vision.

If you're weighing KB37+modules against the Model D, the economic question is, "Can I build something better than a Model D for the same price as a Model D using a KB37?" The answer is "absolutely, unless you want to reproduce a Model D."

Chysn, thanks for taking the time to respond.  You were the first person that came to mind when I posted this (based on your prior modular discussions in other threads).
1. What is this 5V rail you speak of?  I am a modular novice...
2. Yeah.  I’ve been using modular grid to do some mockups in a 107hp size case, and the first things I thought was a) why 107hp?, and b) 124hp would be nicer if not ideal.  I have also considered the tiptop audio mantis (2 x 104hp) with a good Midi to CV module.  That may be what I end up doing and it might be a the good excuse I need to get a Pro2. 
3. I’m not much of a sequencer user... maybe modular would convert me... Maybe that’s another reason for the 2 x 104hp Tiptop Audio case... But my original thought was: I can put together a badass 3 OSC monosynth using modular kit.


Am I looking to build a better Model D? No, of course not. The Model D is near perfect in its own skin.  I’d just like a bit more flexibility in a 3 OSC mono.


Chysn (and others), would you mind taking a gander at mockups I do on modulargrid and give some input?


Cheers!

[chysn]

would you mind taking a gander at mockups I do on modulargrid and give some input?

Happy to, what's the URL?

1. What is this 5V rail you speak of?  I am a modular novice...

If you look at the bottom of your Modular Grid image, there's a "Power Consumption" line, with mA numbers for +12V, -12V, and 5V. This indicates how many milliamperes are required for the entire rack on each of three power lines used by eurorack. The KB37 lacks the 5V line (or rail), so modules that require 5V power can't be powered, unless you specifically arrange for it. 5V usage is relatively uncommon, so it might not matter.

I have also considered the tiptop audio mantis (2 x 104hp) with a good Midi to CV module.  That may be what I end up doing and it might be a the good excuse I need to get a Pro2.

Yeah, Mantis + Pro2 would be a great way to go.

[Shaw]

Happy to, what's the URL?

This was one I had imagined using the Waldorf KB37.  I’ll need to re-imagine this if I decide to go with the TipTop Audio Mantis.... https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/536104

Yeah, Mantis + Pro2 would be a great way to go.

This is going to get expensive....


Any suggestions for a good 1/4” output module, sequencer module, and MIDI to CV module.  On the MIDI to CV module, I am thinking of the Mutable Instruments Yarns because it integrates a pretty good arpeggiator, but suggestions are hereby solicited and appreciated.


Thanks!

[chysn]

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/536104

People love the Erica stuff, it has a great reputation. With this particular system, a few comments would be:

(1) You've got a ton of sound sources (2 VCOs, the suboscillator expander, and the wavetable oscillator), but no way to mix their outputs before going to the filter.

(2) You'll want some utilities like attenuators, scalers, inverters so that you can control your CV. Think of these as the "amount" values on a DSI modulation matrix. You might want a subtle vibrato, for example, which would require attenuation of the CV output from an LFO.

(3) You want the Black 8-Multi there to direct CV to your oscillators; but the Pico Multi won't be that useful in 107HP. Get a few stackable cables instead to free up some space. An extra VCA would be a good candidate for that space (see below).

(4) Eurorack enthusiasts commonly say "you can never have enough VCAs." I think this is nonsense, and there's definitely a sweet spot. You'll want more than the two you have, though. If you can get VCAs with level knobs (unlike the Pico, which just has one CV in per VCA), they can pull double-duty as attenuators. Double duty is gold in a small system.

(5) Speaking of double duty, you can economize (space-wise, I mean) on VCOs. For example, you can find VCOs that have suboscillators built in and/or VCOs that can function as LFOs (which is a Model D trick). The Intellijel Dixie II+ is a great candidate, as it does both of those things. That said, I think that oscillator choice is the most important part of a eurorack system, so make room for the oscillators you really want rather than compromise with something that ticks boxes.

(6) Lots of folks would recommend a Disting. While Disting isn't my cup of tea, a good case can be made that it lets people figure out what dedicated module they really need based on what they use Disting for.

For the most part, you're on the right track. Mostly, you need to use what you have, and that will guide how you shift things around. Probably very few initial plans go unchanged as people learn more about what they want to do.

Yeah, Mantis + Pro2 would be a great way to go.

This is going to get expensive....

It could, but you shouldn't buy it all at once, is the nice thing.

Any suggestions for a good 1/4” output module

I wish I could find an extra 2HP for a Make Noise Rosie for its effects send. I have the Pittsburgh Modular Outs, which is nice, but I'll probably replace it with an Intellijel µJack for its mono mode.

sequencer module

Hard to give advice there. Like oscillators, sequencer choice is very personal. There are full-featured sequencers with memory and 64 steps, and simple sequencers with 8 steps that just go in one direction. My choice, Moskwa, was on the simple side. I love how it's laid out and how immediate it is.

and MIDI to CV module.  On the MIDI to CV module, I am thinking of the Mutable Instruments Yarns because it integrates a pretty good arpeggiator, but suggestions are hereby solicited and appreciated.

Yarns is probably one of the best if you're going with straight MIDI from the DAW. Another option is a DC-coupled audio interface with Expert Sleepers's Silent Way software, which lets you send CV directly from your DAW.

I don't have a MIDI module in my synth, but I can convert MIDI to CV using one of my keyboards (the most flexible of these is QuNexus), and CV to MIDI with an Arduino-powered box that I designed. There's no shortage of ways to interface eurorack and MIDI.

Hope you have fun!

[Shaw]

Thank you for the detailed response. Yes, All of the YouTube videos of the Erica stuff sounds fantastic.


I’m already seriously considering the Pro2 + TipTop Mantis... more space for stuff.
1) noted.
2) also noted, but if I use the Pro2 (with its 4 CV outs), doesn’t that alleviate some of the need for some of these things: attenuators, inverters, etc.?
3) also noted
4) good point.  I am not used to thinking in terms of “double duty”.
5) I also looked at the Intelligel Dixie. Thanks for the suggestion.  I also like the Studio Electronics gear — just sounds delicious.
6) Sorry, I don’t know what Disting is.... 


OK, so here is a dumb question, other than size, what are the advantages / disadvantages of Eurorack vs. 5U (Moog, Synthesizers.com) formats?  Are my eyes tricking my ears or do the 5U format synths sound “beefier”? 
I guess I should also state my objective... I going for those old school analogue synth tones. More of old Genesis than NIN. And mostly played with a keyboard (though I realize going modular is like asking for a sequencer addiction).


Thanks again so much for indulging my stupidity in this area.  I hope others join this conversation. Modular synthesis is after all at the heart of the DSI design philosophy (extensive mod matrices).


Cheers!

[chysn]

2) also noted, but if I use the Pro2 (with its 4 CV outs), doesn’t that alleviate some of the need for some of these things: attenuators, inverters, etc.?

Not really. On the contrary, you'll probably want to run the Pro2's CV through these utilities. The thing with CV utilities is that they seem boring and not worth the space, but they're the heart of modular synthesis and allow you to do really interesting things.

I also like the Studio Electronics gear — just sounds delicious.

Oh, yes, it does. I used to have the 4075 (most-Moog ARP) filter, and it was gorgeous. I just sort of went in a direction that minimized the importance of filters.

6) Sorry, I don’t know what Disting is.... 

It's a tiny module that does everything, but has limited controls and requires a cheat sheet to use effectively. It's the sort of thing that folks either swear by or at.

OK, so here is a dumb question, other than size, what are the advantages / disadvantages of Eurorack vs. 5U (Moog, Synthesizers.com) formats?  Are my eyes tricking my ears or do the 5U format synths sound “beefier”?

I'm sure there are holy wars about it that I'm not qualified to get involved in. You'l find greater variety and innovation in eurorack, and it more readily supports West Coast synthesis, which values complex and organic sounds over beefy sounds. I don't think a beefy sound is inherently precluded by the technology of the format, though.

In terms of price, eurorack and 5U seem comparable (if you're looking at Synthesizers.com stuff). If you're looking for classic and Moogish, 5U could be a good choice. But for euro, check out Aion's stuff. They make a wide range of apparently very faithful Moog modular clones.

I like eurorack because Buchla-inspired modules and clones are common. My modular is styled after the basic Buchla 200 voice, and I get a completely different sort of sound than I get from my Little Phatty.

I hope others join this conversation.

Yeah, I know there are other modular users here, and there are plenty of different opinions on all this stuff. For example...

Modular synthesis is after all at the heart of the DSI design philosophy (extensive mod matrices).

I don't know, DSI doesn't really have a modular tradition. I've worked with big mod matrices before and it feels absolutely nothing like modular. A mod matrix provides a lot of one-way trips, which is cool, but you can't--for example--put a control signal through a low pass filter on the way to someplace else; you have some flexibility in control, but almost none in audio. And you can't immediately unplug a connection and plug it in somewhere else. A mod matrix feels feeble and flaccid by comparison. I've come to love the tactile experience of patching with cables, and I don't think there's a viable substitute.

I think DSI should produce a complete modular voice, though. I'd really like to see that.

[RobH]

I'd say this

a) buy a Doepfer low cost case 9u.

b) build a 3 oscillator synth from AJH synth mini mod range they are faithful clones with very very good quality and sonics also great price for the quality.

c) buy some sequencer and a midi > cv module.

If you started like this you would have the best of everything. A mini moog in modular, space to expand and get into modules like maths and other amazing eurorack modules which can with one module change your entire rack into somehing sonically different. You'd have sequencing and keys.

Sequencing is a must in eurorack. Even if you play a lot of your music still modulating say a filter with a sequencer can makes your modular really sing especially when you add envelopes which can cycle like maths. Maths is a must.

[DavidDever]

I think DSI should produce a complete modular voice, though. I'd really like to see that.

A modular _subtractive_ voice? Or a quad VS-waves generator? Or...?

I'm just not sure what it is that DSI could add to that space (not already there) that would stand on its own merits....

[chysn]

I think DSI should produce a complete modular voice, though. I'd really like to see that.

A modular _subtractive_ voice? Or a quad VS-waves generator? Or...?

I'm just not sure what it is that DSI could add to that space (not already there) that would stand on its own merits....

They definitely have some game. The DSM03 is an absolute gem of a module. I think they'd have to totally dive in with a Prophet VS old-school sample-based oscillator, and then maybe the Prophet 6's filter. Once they have some unique things in place, things like VCAs and utilities just need to glue the system together. When it comes to fungible utility modules, DSI will have a market for literally no other reason than that they use black panels that aren't confusing.

The reality is, though, that DSI is probably way too big for the niche eurorack market. I don't expect to see them get in too deep. If they never do another module, I'm happy that at least they made the DSM03.