Rev2 Derivatives

Rev2 Derivatives
« on: October 18, 2017, 06:49:12 AM »
The Prophet '08 led to a whole range of instruments of smaller forms, both keyboards and modules/desktops.  It's possible the Rev2 will remain a once-off instrument, somewhat like the Prophet-6 (except for the Toraiz), but I'm wondering - and hoping - if the Rev2 might lead to other instruments derived from it.  Robot Heart has already said that it's unlikely there will be another Mopho x4 type instrument, but that still leaves room for other possibilities. I'd be happy to see a REV2 monophonic keyboard version of some type, as well as a module version parallel to the Tetr4.  These instruments could seemingly be produced now at a very reasonable price.
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

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Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 02:26:37 PM »
Back in the day, when there was a discussion that followed the retirement of the Evolver, Mopho, and Tetra, it was my understanding that DSI left the market behind, these units had been manufactured for. I think Robot Heart even confirmed this at some point in alignment with a statement Dave often made in interviews, namely that competing with bigger companies in the lower cost market doesn't make much sense for DSI.

In fact, DSI haven't released any derivatives in a long time as measured by the frequency of their annually announced new instruments. The last one was the Mopho SE in October 2013 (the year that is rather remembered for the Prophet 12), which has also been retired by now. Before that came the still available Mopho x4 in August 2012, the Mopho Keyboard in May 2010, the Tetra in August 2009, and the Mopho module in August 2008. The only exception to that fading pattern has really been the AS-1, which happened as a collaborative effort under the banner of Pioneer, though. The latter is also a kind of confirmation of the shifted competitive situation referred to above.

So I would strongly assume that the focus will rather be on new or different designs in the future, apart from the desktop module tradition that we've seen continued in the case of the Prophet 12, the Prophet-6, the OB-6, and the Rev2.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 04:21:39 PM »
Yes, I remember those comments.  And now we see the more limited pattern: a new keyboard synthesizer, followed by a module version, and nothing more.  Clearly, things are different now from the way they were five or six years ago.  But Dave is also known to occasionally do the unexpected, even to contradict his own stated intentions.  Or else, circumstances change, such as when he was offered back the Sequential name.  After all, one could argue that the Prophet-6 is on the small side - not as small as a Mopho x4, but getting close.  And then, as you mentioned, there is the Toraiz.  So, as with the Evolver Mk II theme, there's reason to hope for the unexpected.  And if there actually is one day an Evolver Mk II, then anything is possible with DSI.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:41:51 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

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Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 04:49:34 PM »
Back in the day, when there was a discussion that followed the retirement of the Evolver, Mopho, and Tetra, it was my understanding that DSI left the market behind, these units had been manufactured for. I think Robot Heart even confirmed this at some point in alignment with a statement Dave often made in interviews, namely that competing with bigger companies in the lower cost market doesn't make much sense for DSI.

Or smaller manufacturers, vis-a-vis semi-modular or Eurorack; in many respects, there are many more niche players now than there were ten years ago, many with direct sales channels and/or limited availability. KnobCon is a pretty good sampling of that substrate.

As an aside, one of the great things about the Mopho and (mono) Evolver keyboards is the comprehensive, knobby expression of a fully-capable synth voice in a full-size (but short-span) keybed, compared to the latter-day alternatives in the market with mini-keys or reduced voice functionality.
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2017, 05:10:08 PM »
Yes, I remember those comments.  And now we see the more limited pattern: a new keyboard synthesizer, followed by a module version, and nothing more.

The pattern has indeed become more limited, but that also allows for more variety.

Clearly, things are different now from the way they were five or six years ago.  But Dave is also known to occasionally do the unexpected, even to contradict his own stated intentions.  Or else, circumstances change, such as when he was offered back the Sequential name.  After all, one could argue that the Prophet-6 is on the small side - not as small as a Mopho x4, but getting close.

The Prophet might be physically on the smaller side, but not when it comes to synth budget. Among the Prophet 12 and the OB-6, it's one of DSI's flagship synths. In that regard it's pretty much the opposite of the derivative products of the past.

And then, as you mentioned, there is the Toraiz.  So, as with the Evolver Mk II theme, there's reason to hope for the unexpected.  And if there actually is one day an Evolver Mk II, then anything is possible with DSI.

The big difference, though, is that the AS-1 has been developed together with Pioneer and is produced by Pioneer, which is a big company that has resources comparable to the synth companies DSI can no longer compete with in the lower price market. So that's a strategical joint venture that also gains easier access to that particular market. Maybe it's going to be under the banner of Pioneer where some ingredients of the Rev2 will be recycled in a smaller form factor at some point.

If there was going to be something like an Evolver MKII one day - something I'd be excited about -, I think it would rather happen in the PEK format, not necessarily in the original desktop format. Not only for all of the above mentioned reasons, but also because I have the impression that the currently most popular portable mono synths are those that are instantly tweakable: Instruments that just sound good, are not too complex and hence either only need little or no memory or presets.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2017, 05:20:48 PM »
Or smaller manufacturers, vis-a-vis semi-modular or Eurorack; in many respects, there are many more niche players now than there were ten years ago, many with direct sales channels and/or limited availability. KnobCon is a pretty good sampling of that substrate.

Knobcon and Superbooth, not so much NAMM or Messe (Frankfurt) anymore, yeah.

As an aside, one of the great things about the Mopho and (mono) Evolver keyboards is the comprehensive, knobby expression of a fully-capable synth voice in a full-size (but short-span) keybed, compared to the latter-day alternatives in the market with mini-keys or reduced voice functionality.

This is an aspect that will remain with DSI. In the current situation, it's best for them to do what they're good at, namely to create coherent instruments without being forced to compete with everyone. The Prophet 12, the Prophet-6, and the Rev2 are all good examples of that, glued together by years of experience in really good interface design.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 05:50:02 PM »
If there was going to be something like an Evolver MKII one day - something I'd be excited about -, I think it would rather happen in the PEK format, not necessarily in the original desktop format. Not only for all of the above mentioned reasons, but also because I have the impression that the currently most popular portable mono synths are those that are instantly tweakable: Instruments that just sound good, are not too complex and hence either only need little or no memory or presets.

I could forsee a Poly Evolver-derived unit in a Rev2-style package (knobby five-octave synth + desktop module), though by necessity, something in the line would need to go away for it to "fit". Gut instinct, however, tells me that it wouldn't be enough of an audacious step forward to make it worthwhile. (But what do I know?)

I _really_ like the Rev2 Desktop form factor, 21.6" L x 7.9″ W x 3.3" H (54.8 cm x 20 cm x 8.4 cm):



compared to that of the Prophet-6 Desktop, 21.25 L x 7.43 W x 4.4″ H (54.0 cm x 18.9 cm x 11.2 cm):



That extra half-inch deep (and lower profile) makes a nice difference, as does the OLED screen. And increased polyphony. (Yes, I know about direct patch selection being a pain, but....)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 06:00:09 PM by DavidDever »
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 06:30:32 PM »
For starts, a "new" Poly Evolver Module could eliminate sixteen knobs by incorporating the sequencer into other knobs, as did the Prophet '08.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 06:39:58 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

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Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2017, 06:37:11 PM »
Just a note on the Rev2 Module dimensions vs the P6 Module dimensions, the P6/OB-6 Modules are a bit chunkier to accommodate the voice cards. Otherwise they'd be more inline with the Rev2 Module profile.
SEQUENTIAL | OBERHEIM

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2017, 07:11:28 PM »
Just a note on the Rev2 Module dimensions vs the P6 Module dimensions, the P6/OB-6 Modules are a bit chunkier to accommodate the voice cards. Otherwise they'd be more inline with the Rev2 Module profile.

makes sense!
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Propheteer

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2017, 10:28:08 PM »
Personally I'm happy to see DSI focus more on properly built, cohesive instruments (as Paul Dither mentioned above) and leaving the tacky looking (and often tackily named) EDM/DJ type oriented cheapo-boxes far behind. There's enough manufacturers doing that and too few still making quality, analog, synths with good build, good looks, good keybeds, good construction. Synths built to last and to look good 25 years from now. No gaudy yellow boxes with daft names please.

Dave Smith should play to his strengths not try to compete on the lowest common denominator stuff that just tarnishes the image of the rest of his range.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2017, 02:03:02 AM »
I could forsee a Poly Evolver-derived unit in a Rev2-style package (knobby five-octave synth + desktop module), though by necessity, something in the line would need to go away for it to "fit".

That's what I had in mind for something like a PEK and PER follow-up.

For starts, a "new" Poly Evolver Module could eliminate sixteen knobs by incorporating the sequencer into other knobs, as did the Prophet '08.

In terms of features that don't fit on a front panel, let's not forget about the form factor of the Prophet 12 module, which is also quite easy to handle thanks to the logical knob layout and the OLED screen.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2017, 05:44:16 AM »
Sadly new Evolvers of any sort don't seem to be on the horizon so it's scouring eBay, etc is the only thing for it.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2017, 05:45:15 AM »
Maybe for DSI's 20th anniversary? Though that's a few years yet.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 08:33:23 AM »
No gaudy yellow boxes with daft names please.  Dave Smith should play to his strengths not try to compete on the lowest common denominator stuff that just tarnishes the image of the rest of his range.

I'll certainly agree with you there, but everybody goofs up once in a while.  But by contrast with the looks and name of the Mopho Keyboard and Module, the Tetr4 was a dignified looking instrument and also sounded superb.  In other words, those smaller instruments derived from the Prophet '08 could have had names and appearances just as dignified.  The same is true now for the Rev2 and anything derived from it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 08:55:55 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

LoboLives

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2017, 10:20:01 AM »
I think a new Evolver would be good for a very simple reason: It's different than what's currently on the market now. Especially if you take the concept of the Tempest's synth engine (Two analog oscillators, two digital oscillators including samples-except from the Prophet 2000 instead of the LM-1, LinnDrumm etc)

What else can DSI do in the analog market?

Another monophonic synth? There's enough of those coming out left and right these days. We don't need another one. From Roland to Vermona, DSI's mono will get lost in oversaturation.

Another polyphonic? What else would be different about another poly synth? Multitimbrality? I don't think that'll be in the foreseeable future either from my understanding. Dave doesn't seem interested. Even when he was giving his studio tour he said something to the effect of "I'm not going to talk about it cause it's not important." when discussing the Six-Trak being multitimbral.

Another drum machine? Nah. Leave that to Roger Linn.

A standalone DSI sequencer like the old Sequential Programmers? I'd rather they update the OS on the onboard sequencers on their current gear first.

Behringer is apparently doing both an OBXa clone and ARP 2600 clone. Although I still think it would be hilarious if they made a Jupiter 8 clone before Roland did.

Korg is probably going to come out with another mini key synth and do nothing with the ARP name.

Moog is probably going to something stupid like offer a limited run "ALL BLACK" Subsequent 37 instead of doing something new.

I still say a new Evolver Keyboard from DSI and a sampler keyboard with DSI filters from a collaboration with Pioneer would both blow everything else out of the market based simply on the fact they are different than anything else out there currently. Everything else is just derivative or backtracking instead of advancing forward.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 10:21:48 AM by LoboLives »

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2017, 11:07:15 AM »
How about some more Rev2's?

Prophet 6 Rev2 8 voice with 16voice option
OB-6 Rev2 same voice options
yes it will be wicked expensive!  and big.... :D
Prophet Rev2, SonicCore Xite-1,CP300,CS5,SK20

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2017, 11:22:43 AM »
How about some more Rev2's?

Prophet 6 Rev2 8 voice with 16voice option
OB-6 Rev2 same voice options
yes it will be wicked expensive!  and big.... :D

Being from 2015 and 2016, the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 still belong to DSI's newer releases, so I wouldn't expect any updated versions of those instruments in a long time. And the wicked and expensive option is already there if you choose to add a desktop module to the keyboard version.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2017, 11:49:11 AM »
I think a new Evolver would be good for a very simple reason: It's different than what's currently on the market now. Especially if you take the concept of the Tempest's synth engine (Two analog oscillators, two digital oscillators including samples-except from the Prophet 2000 instead of the LM-1, LinnDrumm etc)

What else can DSI do in the analog market?

Another monophonic synth? There's enough of those coming out left and right these days. We don't need another one. From Roland to Vermona, DSI's mono will get lost in oversaturation.

Another polyphonic? What else would be different about another poly synth? Multitimbrality? I don't think that'll be in the foreseeable future either from my understanding.

Completely agreed. Hence, I strongly assume that we're probably going to see a hybrid design next. Whether or how much it will be related to the Evolver remains to be seen, though.

Another drum machine? Nah. Leave that to Roger Linn.

It is my understanding that this is going to be his next move anyway: the long planned LinnDrum II.

A standalone DSI sequencer like the old Sequential Programmers?

That market is also already pretty well covered with the fairly popular BeatStep Pro, and dozens of options that arose in the vicinity of Eurorack or analog desktop synths. One could of course develop a model that provides an excessive amount of tracks, something like a standalone Pro 2 sequencer.

Behringer is apparently doing both an OBXa clone and ARP 2600 clone. Although I still think it would be hilarious if they made a Jupiter 8 clone before Roland did.

Roland will never make a Jupiter 8 clone outside of what's already available in the System-8. And it also remains to be seen if Dr. Proton and his tech bots will deliver their promised hordes of clones. So far it was mostly about market interrupting announcements and lots of delays.

Korg is probably going to come out with another mini key synth and do nothing with the ARP name.

No, Korg is said to come out with something bigger next year. Something analog with 8 letters that starts with "P". That's at least what was announced on the Korg microKAST podcast a few months ago. Whether it's going to be purely analog is not clear yet, but apparently they're excited about it.

Moog is probably going to something stupid like offer a limited run "ALL BLACK" Subsequent 37 instead of doing something new.

Haha! No, I think they'll leave it at what it currently is. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if there is not going to be a major announcement at NAMM, since they've been pretty much following their own clock in the past 2 or 3 years, with some announcements only being made at or around Moogfest.

I still say a new Evolver Keyboard from DSI and a sampler keyboard with DSI filters from a collaboration with Pioneer would both blow everything else out of the market based simply on the fact they are different than anything else out there currently. Everything else is just derivative or backtracking instead of advancing forward.

A classic performance oriented sampler outside the beat box form factor is indeed something that's currently missing. Not sure if it's related to that, but even prices for samplers from the 1990s are on the rise on the used market.

Re: Rev2 Derivatives
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2017, 12:06:15 PM »
I'm enthusiastically onboard with the new Evolver idea.  I've been singing that tune for years now.  But the reason I'm skeptical is that DSI has - even very lately - denied that such an instrument as an Evolver Mk II is forthcoming.  So, I'm not sure why you guys are still harping on the topic with some confidence.  I don't want to sound negative, because nothing would thrill me more, but, all recent indications from San Francisco are entirely in the negative.  That Dave sometimes changes his mind is little hope in this case.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:46:35 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

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