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BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem

BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« on: January 06, 2016, 04:43:22 PM »
Hi all,

anyone out there using a Behringer BCR2000 to control the P12 with NRPN codes? The rotary encoders are working great but I'm having problems getting the buttons to function properly.

For example, with OSC1 sync...no matter what value I send to NRPN 11, all it will do is turn the Osc1 Sync On, nothing I send will turn it off. I've tried all variations of the 'toggle on' message, sending param1's of 0, 1, or 127 and param2's of 0, 1, or 127 with no success. Below is what Midi-Ox shows I'm sending...line 3 shows the "On" value of 127 (or 7F) and line 6 shows the "Off" value of 0. Problem is, the "Off" value doesn't turn the OSC1 sync off.

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
0000CAAB 1 -- B0 63 00 1 --- CC: NRPN MSB
0000CAB3 1 -- B0 62 0B 1 --- CC: NRPN LSB
0000CAB3 1 -- B0 06 7F 1 --- CC: Data Entry MSB
0000D837 1 -- B0 63 00 1 --- CC: NRPN MSB
0000D844 1 -- B0 62 0B 1 --- CC: NRPN LSB
0000D844 1 -- B0 06 00 1 --- CC: Data Entry MSB

So, anyone else having this problem? If not, can you tell me what values you're sending from the BCR2000 buttons?

Thanks!
Dennis
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

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Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 11:42:52 PM »
ON:
229.768   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Non-Registered Parameter MSB   0
229.768   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Non-Registered Parameter LSB   11
229.768   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Data Entry (coarse)   0
229.768   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Data Entry (fine)   1

OFF:
242.114   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Non-Registered Parameter MSB   0
242.114   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Non-Registered Parameter LSB   11
242.114   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Data Entry (coarse)   0
242.114   From Prophet 12 Module   Control   1   Data Entry (fine)   0


I would recommend getting some sort of midi monitor type program, the above output is from "Midi Monitor" on the Mac.

Then set midi param send to NRPN on the P12 and you can monitor the sysex messages when you make changes on the P12.

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 12:41:50 AM »
Hi all,

anyone out there using a Behringer BCR2000 to control the P12 with NRPN codes? The rotary encoders are working great but I'm having problems getting the buttons to function properly.

For example, with OSC1 sync...no matter what value I send to NRPN 11, all it will do is turn the Osc1 Sync On, nothing I send will turn it off. I've tried all variations of the 'toggle on' message, sending param1's of 0, 1, or 127 and param2's of 0, 1, or 127 with no success. Below is what Midi-Ox shows I'm sending...line 3 shows the "On" value of 127 (or 7F) and line 6 shows the "Off" value of 0. Problem is, the "Off" value doesn't turn the OSC1 sync off.

TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
0000CAAB 1 -- B0 63 00 1 --- CC: NRPN MSB
0000CAB3 1 -- B0 62 0B 1 --- CC: NRPN LSB
0000CAB3 1 -- B0 06 7F 1 --- CC: Data Entry MSB
0000D837 1 -- B0 63 00 1 --- CC: NRPN MSB
0000D844 1 -- B0 62 0B 1 --- CC: NRPN LSB
0000D844 1 -- B0 06 00 1 --- CC: Data Entry MSB

So, anyone else having this problem? If not, can you tell me what values you're sending from the BCR2000 buttons?

Thanks!
Dennis

Not 100% sure about this but according to what BobTheDog wrote it seems to me that you need to send LSB 00, not MSB 00 ...

LA

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 09:47:15 AM »
Just hooked the BCR2000 back up to Midi-Ox and found something interesting.  Setup a rotary encoder to toggle LFO2 Wave Reset and a button to do the same and compared the midi messages.  The rotary successfully turns the parameter on/off where the button only turns it on.  The midi sent from the rotary & button are different...problem being the button doesn't send all 4 midi messages required for the NRPN, leaving off the final LSB value required to turn the parameter back off. 

Seems very odd...the button is set to send NRPN but doesn't send the full 4 messages???

 TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
Button messages               
 00076B8A   1  --     B0    63    01    1  ---  CC: NRPN MSB         
 00076B8E   1  --     B0    62    24    1  ---  CC: NRPN LSB         
 00076B8E   1  --     B0    06    7F    1  ---  CC: Data Entry MSB   
 00077190   1  --     B0    63    01    1  ---  CC: NRPN MSB         
 0007719A   1  --     B0    62    24    1  ---  CC: NRPN LSB         
 0007719A   1  --     B0    06    00    1  ---  CC: Data Entry MSB   

Rotary messages
 000781C2   1  --     B0    63    01    1  ---  CC: NRPN MSB         
 000781C9   1  --     B0    62    24    1  ---  CC: NRPN LSB         
 000781C9   1  --     B0    06    00    1  ---  CC: Data Entry MSB   
 000781C9   1  --     B0    26    01    1  ---  CC: Data Entry LSB   
 000786B1   1  --     B0    63    01    1  ---  CC: NRPN MSB         
 000786B6   1  --     B0    62    24    1  ---  CC: NRPN LSB         
 000786B6   1  --     B0    06    00    1  ---  CC: Data Entry MSB   
 000786B6   1  --     B0    26    00    1  ---  CC: Data Entry LSB   

Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything I can do to fix this :-(



 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 10:18:31 AM by WytchCrypt »
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
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Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 12:08:22 PM »
Weird, have you checked you have the latest firmware on the BCR?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 01:08:36 PM by BobTheDog »

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 12:27:34 PM »
Are you using BC Manager from Mountain utilities?
I'm pretty sure that it I was able to send the four messages with it.

LA

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 02:40:26 PM »
1) I checked and I am running the most recent BCR2000 OS.
2) I was looking at the Mountain editor this morning but didn't think it would make any difference since programming a "NRPN button" from the editor uses the same number of parameters as programming from the hardware.  Guess I should try uploading from the editor to see if it changes the hardware's method of sending NRPN button messages  ;)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

dslsynth

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Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 03:01:04 PM »
Or write your own mapping software! ;)

I have experience with using a BCR2k as an editor panel. What soon became obvious was the need to remember the parameter locations. I used the buttons as page selectors giving a massive number of possible parameters. So basically a GUI for visual feedback is needed to handle large voices such as Prophet 12. In my experience anyway!

In other words: BCR2k a good platform for developing experience with such a controller given that I could not afford the original AkaiBulk APC40. And its way too bulky anyway. The market needs a better, more modern and much more compact led feedback knobby controller with plenty of page selector buttons and a display line above each row of knobs.
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 04:18:46 PM »
Found out from some docs written for custom DSI Tetra BCR2000 maps that the BCR2000 buttons do not send 14 bit NRPN...though it apparently is possible to write your own custom output for the buttons in the Mountain editor.  This is a bit over my head though so I'm doing more research, unless someone can share a step-by-step guide for how to do this and save me a ton of time  ;)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 04:13:50 PM »
Great news...I got if figured out...well, mostly figured out  ;)  I've been able to send the proper custom output sysex to turn the P12 parameter for NRPN 11 on and off after configuring the button in the MountainUtilities editor.

On: $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $01

Off: $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $00

Now I'm wondering if the BCR2000 button toggle feature is available in the custom output mode?  I've been able to turn the parameter on OR off from a single button but not toggle through both on AND off states with a single button.  Tried all combinations of editor settings and there's no specific way of sending 2 separate sysex strings based on button state (at least nothing I've found yet) so am wondering if this is even possible in custom output mode?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 04:16:01 PM by WytchCrypt »
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
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Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 06:43:25 PM »
OK...so after a couple more hours I've got a cool solution to the toggle problem.  Couldn't find a way to assign 2 unique sysex strings to a button in the BCR2000 custom output editor which would create a toggle button...but I read that the NRPN codes work by 1st alerting the NRPN parameter that a change is coming, then by sending the new value.  So what I did was break up the NRPN sysex into 2 parts.  The 1st button sends NRPN that selects the P12 on/off parameter I want to change, then I set up an "On button" and "Off button" which only sends the "1" or "0" end of the 14 bit NRPN message which actually changes the on/off parameter on the P12.  This is much more desirable than having to dedicated 2 buttons to turn each parameter on/off.  Here's an example:

Button 1 sends the generic parameter off by sending: $B0 $26 $00
Button 2 sends the generic parameter on by sending: $B0 $26 $01
Button 3 wakes up OSC1 Sync by sending:                $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $00
Button 4 wakes up OSC1 Wave Reset by sending:      $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0C $00     

So button 3 or 4 (or however many on/off parameters I want to control) tells the P12 that this parameter needs to wake up and listen for the next NRPN message.  Button 1 or 2 then tells that parameter to turn on or off.  This way I can control say, 10 P12 on/off parameters with 12 buttons instead of the 20 required by every on/off parameter having it's own dedicated on/off button  ;)
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 10:50:53 AM »
Great news...I got if figured out...well, mostly figured out  ;)  I've been able to send the proper custom output sysex to turn the P12 parameter for NRPN 11 on and off after configuring the button in the MountainUtilities editor.

On: $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $01

Off: $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $00

Now I'm wondering if the BCR2000 button toggle feature is available in the custom output mode?  I've been able to turn the parameter on OR off from a single button but not toggle through both on AND off states with a single button.  Tried all combinations of editor settings and there's no specific way of sending 2 separate sysex strings based on button state (at least nothing I've found yet) so am wondering if this is even possible in custom output mode?

Assuming that you are using the "custom output" tab of the BC manager you may try the following:

Set "Value 1" to 0
Set "Value 2" to 1
Set "mode" to toggle

Now insead of writing: "$B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $00" or "$B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $01"
write: $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 val

I've tried this a while ago for sysex strings and this does work by sending the actual "value" of an encoder. Which is sent where you put the keyword "val" in your string.

I've never tested with buttons but I guess this should work too and will then send "value 1" or "value 2" according to the mode you choose.

The whole thing is explained in the "BC Manager midi Implementation" pdf document available on the Mountain utilities website. This is very deep and not that easy to understand but worth reading if you intent to get the maximum of the BCR2000.


LA
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 11:12:53 AM by LA Keys »

Re: BCR2000->NRPN->P12 Problem
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2016, 12:34:48 PM »
Assuming that you are using the "custom output" tab of the BC manager you may try the following:

Set "Value 1" to 0
Set "Value 2" to 1
Set "mode" to toggle

Now insead of writing: "$B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $00" or "$B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 $01"
write: $B0 $63 $00 $62 $0B $06 $00 $26 val

I've tried this a while ago for sysex strings and this does work by sending the actual "value" of an encoder. Which is sent where you put the keyword "val" in your string.

I've never tested with buttons but I guess this should work too and will then send "value 1" or "value 2" according to the mode you choose.

The whole thing is explained in the "BC Manager midi Implementation" pdf document available on the Mountain utilities website. This is very deep and not that easy to understand but worth reading if you intent to get the maximum of the BCR2000.


LA

Thanks LA, that works perfectly...I now have 14 bit NRPN toggle buttons  8) 8) 8) 

Changing my button custom output code to use the "val" variable did the trick...and even though I've been pouring over that BC Mgr Midi Imp doc for a couple days now, it wasn't at all clear how to get those button value knobs to work.  I thought I'd have to write .easypar code which does support a toggleon/off mode, but then saw that 14 bit NRPN buttons aren't supported by BCL so figured I'd have to go with my param select->on/off button solution but this is much better for many reasons!
Mutiny in Jonestown, Progressive Rock Since 1987:

Website: https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown
Bandcamp: https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/