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Clicking and Popping- Intermittent

Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« on: September 29, 2017, 12:28:23 PM »
I have contacted support about this, and was bascially told, in a very kind way, that it was "user error". In other words, I don't know what I'm doing...but I've had this Proph 6 now for a few months, and this problem is still ongoing. I get clicking and popping. It's not all the time. At first, I thought it was just anytime I used AMP modulation in the LFO section. But, I've since discovered it even when I'm not using ANY modulaltion, LFO or otherwise. Sometimes it gets worse when the VELOCITY button in AMP section is on. Sometimes it happens with just one osc going. It just seems totally random. Yes, I've messed with all varied gain staging things (turning the OSC's down, and the master up, turning the PRGM volume down, etc) and nothing seems to fix it. I've also messed with different att and rel settings in the amp section. I've contacted Cust Support again, and was told, (paraphrasing) "Nothing wrong with the board. If you don't like it, get something else". Hrmpph. I'm relatively new to synthesis, but at this point, I kind of know my way around this board. A friend who was rehearsing with me last night is a pro synth player, and when I showed him the issue...he was like "that's not right". Anyone???? :(

cbmd

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Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 12:57:18 PM »
Hi Luke88,

To be clear, I in no way was implying that the pops/clicks you are hearing are due to user error.  Again, the pops/clicks arise from the VCA being modulated with a waveform with a near instantaneous rising and/or falling edge.  This causes discontinuities (perceived as pop/clicks) in the resultant waveform when the VCA is increased/decreased at non zero point crossings.

I've attached a couple images which might help explain this better.  The first is the audio file you initially sent me in support.  I've circled an area in the first image which I zoomed into and is shown in the second image.

The location I zoomed into is when the LFOs rising vertical edge modulates the VCA open.  In the second image, I circled the point at which the LFO begins to open the VCA.  The VCA is opened in less than a millisecond.  This causes a small click/pop due to the oscillator's not being at a zero crossing when the VCA is opened.

I hope this clears things up.
Sequential

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2017, 10:45:02 AM »
Thanks Carson for the reply. I'm not pointing fingers, I just think maybe there's been a slight communication error. I hear this popping and clicking not just when the LFO is engaged. I hear sometimes with just one OSC on and no LFO, indeed no modulation at all engage. It's pretty intermittent. That's what I was trying to say with my email to support last week. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. You're response was based on the sound samples I sent a couple months ago, which is totally rational on your part. But I think this problem is not necessarily LFO derived. As stated in my post above, a synth pro friend heard the board in person and suggested I contact DSI support again. Thanks.

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 08:26:38 AM »
Hello!

I struggled with this issue for months after i first got mine.  I sympathize!  Apparently i got the same response as did everyone on this issue from DSI. Ive owned alot of synths some analog and some digital and the DSI's seem to be very "Clicky" in its sonic nature.  One would think that they could figure out a way to ameliorate the issue even though it is considered normal functioning.  One thing i do that was recommended to me is to turn up the the attack a little bit on the VCA.  That usually seems to help.  I see Korg Minilogue folks upset about the same thing.  I had a brand new Roland System 8 and i when i modulated the VCA with the LFO with Square wave it did the same thing as the Prophet 6 only worse.
At least nothings wrong with your rig!  Best Regards! 

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 10:52:06 AM »
These clicks are normal and happen even without any LFOs. They simply happen when the VCA gets triggered. A lot of analog synthesizers have this. It happens with free running oscillators and fast envelope times, when waveforms did not start from the beginning (phase 0) but from somwhere in between.

You can hear it even when VCA Sustain and Decay is zero. So your synth is most likely not broken!

Attack, decay but also release influence it. The attack of DSI synths is very fast so depending on the sound you have you may want to raise the attack to 1-5 or something, the attack is still fast.

You can even design these attack clicks/pops in some sense. The loudness and sound of the clicks depend on how many sound sources (OSCs, Sub OSC, Noise) are on, how loud they are and their pitch. The VCA is before the filter, so if the filter is completely open, the clicks and pops are brighter.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:56:07 AM by Indigo V. »

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 09:07:12 AM »
I got rid of this by turning off the velocity button by envelope amount in the amplifier section.  Took me about a year to figure that out ;)

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 12:04:11 PM »
yeah. unfortunately, none of these remedies work. I've tried everything. I simply can't modulate AMP with LFO with any of the LFO waveforms without clicks and pops. Why have it then? Weird. Even with Triangle selected as the LFO wavefrom, there is an initial pop. The others, REV SQ, SQ, SAW, and RANDOM all pop so much as to be unusable. Here I am a year later- and I still think there's something wrong with this. Other than this issue- it's an amazing piece of gear.

magikroom

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Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2018, 05:49:23 AM »
yeah. unfortunately, none of these remedies work. I've tried everything. I simply can't modulate AMP with LFO with any of the LFO waveforms without clicks and pops. Why have it then? Weird. Even with Triangle selected as the LFO wavefrom, there is an initial pop. The others, REV SQ, SQ, SAW, and RANDOM all pop so much as to be unusable. Here I am a year later- and I still think there's something wrong with this. Other than this issue- it's an amazing piece of gear.

Yeah, it is unfortunate, it's on both the P6 and OB6...If a Slew Parameter was added, it would solve this or you have to use a very small amount of non Triangle waveform. 
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Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2018, 07:07:30 PM »
Found this thread looking for a solution to the same issue I have with my Rev 2. Getting clicks and pops when modulating amp with an LFO - doesn't seem to be an issue otherwise. I was trying to program an evolving ambient patch but couldn't get rid of the intermittent clicking and popping until I turned the EnvAmt in the LPF section all the way down. That seems to have done the trick.. so far, so good anyway. I realize it's a Rev 2 not a P6, and maybe you tried that already but wanted to comment here since I didn't see anything about this in the Rev 2 forum.

jmnes

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 10:00:16 AM »
I got rid of this by turning off the velocity button by envelope amount in the amplifier section.  Took me about a year to figure that out ;)

It only occurs for me with velocity on the amp env. Sounds like maybe thatís just how it is. I didnít really consider yet, but perhaps one of the velocity curves helps mitigate it.

I canít find any written definition of the velocity curves, so I guess Iíll test it by ear.

jmnes

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 05:15:16 PM »
I canít find any written definition of the velocity curves, so I guess Iíll test it by ear.

After confirmation of the behavior by support on their P6 and playing with the velocity curves, itís seems like this is normal behavior on softer (triangle/filtered) sounds with longer release that use velocity on the amp envelope amount.

No velocity curve changed that behavior, nor did adding a little attack - which helps with different kinds of clicks but not this.

The only thing that works consistently is turning off velocity on the amp envelope.

All in all, not really a big deal but Iím still not sure I understand why that exact combination of things causes the issue.

Still love the P6.

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2018, 02:36:16 PM »
Any sudden change in the waveform produces a pop / click and the velocity is applied instantly, so it causes a sudden change in the waveform.

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2018, 11:20:03 AM »
yeah. unfortunately, none of these remedies work. I've tried everything. I simply can't modulate AMP with LFO with any of the LFO waveforms without clicks and pops. Why have it then? Weird. Even with Triangle selected as the LFO wavefrom, there is an initial pop. The others, REV SQ, SQ, SAW, and RANDOM all pop so much as to be unusable. Here I am a year later- and I still think there's something wrong with this. Other than this issue- it's an amazing piece of gear.

Does it go away if you turn on wave reset on the oscillators? With that turned on key on will reset the oscillatorsí phase to zero.

jmnes

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2018, 11:36:49 AM »
Does it go away if you turn on wave reset on the oscillators? With that turned on key on will reset the oscillatorsí phase to zero.

There is no wave reset option on the Prophet 6 (right?).

Itís not the common thing with an oscillator click, which can be remedied by slowing the attack a bit. I think what everyone is saying is that itís actually due to rapid change in the amp level itself. You canít really get rid of that since itís at the end of the audio chain, so you just have to be careful of the voice overlap on certain sounds if using velocity on the amp envelope. With velocity off, it doesnít happen because there is no reason for the amp level to erratically jump like that. Unless you use an LFO on Amp with a waveform other than triangle - then you can create the same behavior.

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2019, 03:19:11 AM »
This is perhaps not a very useful post for the OP, but I'll post anyway. I got my P6 yesterday and have tested it for a few hours now. I have noticed the very audible pops and clicks when using amp as target for a square/saw/random LFO and the LP cutoff frequency is low. A google search led me to this thread, good to know nothing is wrong with my P6! I did a comparison to my Rev2 and it happens here too, but perhaps not as audible (?). I have scanned through factory preset bank 5, 6 and 7 in the P6 and noticed that most of the LFOs use triangle waveform. When other waveforms are used, amp is usually not a target. In the cases where amp is target for a square/saw/random LFO, the patch is usually very distorted, uses high LP cutoff frequency or uses the pops/clicks creatively as a percussive effect. In combination with a delay effect this can create nice rhythmic patterns. I think the best approach is to use this side effect in a musically creative way. In the old analog days they were very good at turning side effects into something musically creative :)

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2019, 08:08:03 AM »
I think the best approach is to use this side effect in a musically creative way. In the old analog days they were very good at turning side effects into something musically creative :)

You're right - this is probably not what the OP wants to hear.  Some will interpret it as making excuses for Sequential.  But in a world where nothing is perfect, and where no synthesizer is without its idiosyncrasies, this is the right attitude to have.  Wherever possible, turn a disadvantage into an advantage by means of your own clever creativity.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 08:10:07 AM by Sacred Synthesis »
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Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2019, 12:37:27 AM »
A solution to this may be to trial an external LFO effect pedal, if it’s just the AMP you want to modulate.
There’s pedals like the Copilot and (noisy) Moogerfoogr LFO and even the eelktron analogue heat.

Although that’s an additional cost, it does free the onboard LFO for other duties, where you don’t want the same LFO parameters on other targets.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 12:39:04 AM by MPM »
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Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2020, 06:49:25 PM »
This is an issue with note stealing and the velocity modifier. If you program a mellow patch with a soft attack, some release and velocity sensitivity on the amp envelope, then play a 4 note chord repeatedly briskly, you will get all kinds of clicks!

This is because the velocity sensitivity modifier is not programmed to accommodate note stealing elegantly. A three note chord played repeatedly sounds fine. A four note chord will steal one of the four notes. When the synth interprets the new velocity of the stolen note, it jumps immediately to the new amplitude modifier, causing a discontinuity and a click.

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2020, 03:47:54 AM »
Hi Luke,
I've noticed the same thing, mainly when the LFO is directed to amp and is any other wave form than triangle, and also when the amp velocity button is engaged (and then only on certain patches). To be honest, I noticed it a few times and then didn't think anything more about it.

But I do understand what it feels like when you notice something and it starts to bug you. I had the same thing recently with some builders who hung a door with the hinges on (what was to me) the wrong side. Every time I open the door it bugs me, and I'm thinking 'why couldn't they have put the hinges on the other side'. But Her Indoors, i.e. the missis, doesn't see it as a problem and it doesn't bug her one bit. She opens the door and doesn't think about it - zero annoyance. And yet it is the same door!

I complained about it to her, and she said to me, 'Why don't you get them back to change the door round?' and I said, 'But why did they hang it the wrong way in the first place?'. She shrugged her shoulders and got on with cooking our kids' dinner.

Now, I don't know if this helps (and excuse me if I'm sermonising), but I learn a lot from Her Indoors, and two things I 'try' to learn are her ability to accept things as they are and her ability to get on with what's important. For me, the door is a case in point.

It still bugs me though!

Best wishes,

Old Timer.

Re: Clicking and Popping- Intermittent
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2020, 03:20:07 PM »
here's some notes on the envelope behavior as well as audio examples of the clicking and popping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAXkpz82Y1E