Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?

Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« on: August 09, 2017, 06:20:02 PM »
I know it's possible to synchronize the Rev2 with an external clock, but I can't figure out a way to implement true beat sync. As is, whenever I trigger notes even a few milliseconds off, the arpeggiator remains off by that amount for as long as it plays. This renders the arpeggiator and sequencer unreliable enough to be basically unusable in live settings, at least for me. I know that I am not alone in this.

I can't find anything of use in the manual. Does anyone know how to sync notes triggering with an external clock? Surely this is possible. It's 2017!

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 06:46:08 PM »
Our instruments have clock sync, not beat sync. If you want to trigger an arp or a sequence in time, you need to play it in time or trigger it externally. The fact that the arp remains off by the same amount it was first triggered indicates sync is not drifting.
SEQUENTIAL | OBERHEIM

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 04:39:29 AM »
Yes, I understand the difference.

Extremely disappointing omission for such a pricey piece of hardware. Beat sync is a common feature these days. Any chance it might be added in a firmware update?

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 06:14:47 AM »
Beat Sync isn't a common feature, I own a fair few synths and can't recall any with beat sync, all have clock sync, may be at the  mod says learn to play in time ;)
Synth Arsenal - Access Virus TI Polar, Moog Sub37, Nord A1, Nord Wave, DSI Prophet REV2, Roland TR8, Ableton Push 2

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 08:01:16 AM »
The only synth I have with beat sync is a Nord Lead A1.  To be honest, I wish more synths had the feature as it is great for performance and improvisation alongside sequenced gear.  As useful a feature as it is, it's never something that influences my purchasing decisions.

aeonn

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 09:13:01 AM »
Beat Sync isn't a common feature, I own a fair few synths and can't recall any with beat sync, all have clock sync, may be at the  mod says learn to play in time ;)

I beg to disagree, there are loads of synths with beat sync arp. Telling someone to just "learn to play in time" is not a sufficient answer to such request. I agree with the OP here because even if I am good at playing in time, there are moments when you strike a chord slightly off the beat and it totally ruins the groove because it starts the pattern over, and if by any chance a upper note is hit before a lower note (assuming that you use an UP arpeggiator pattern) then it sounds awkwardly wrong.

It's a legitimate request to want to have beat sync as an option. Just as an example, the Juno60 has beat sync arp. The Sub37 has beat sync arp.
Where is the problem if DSI eventually makes the setting available ? It would suit everyone. The ones using clock sync, and the ones using beat sync.

I agree that it should be in the pipe for a feature request: Beat Sync as an option in the arp menu.  ;)

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 09:36:08 AM »
I personally prefer tempo sync to beat sync because then you can do things like hit it on the off beat and have it stay on the off beat, or on any other division of the beat. Just seems like even if you had beat sync and relied on that you'd still be incapable of "live" (or whatever you can playing in the keybed without a sequencer) playing on rhythm..so you'd need to work on that either way...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 09:37:41 AM by Troy92Evans »

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 12:01:24 PM »
+1 for Beat Sync !  8)

aeonn

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 01:25:33 AM »
Just seems like even if you had beat sync and relied on that you'd still be incapable of "live" (or whatever you can playing in the keybed without a sequencer) playing on rhythm..so you'd need to work on that either way...

Well, I understand the appeal of clock sync to keep an offbeat feeling, but conversely, that is what makes the beat sync suitable for a live performance. Whether you hit the chord too soon or to late, the arpeggiator's beat remains steady and doesn't shift.

Here is a great example of a Beat Sync Arpeggiator during a live performance : https://youtu.be/MlStIByfTyQ?t=7m58s
You can see that Nils Frahm hits the chords slighty before the pattern to start over so he can tweak the filter and pitch.

It's a Juno 60 but I could easily reproduce the same arp pattern on a Sub37. I woulds love to be able to do that on a Prophet Rev2 for the sound possibilities.

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 02:38:43 AM »
Hi,

I also would like to reinforce the beat sync feature.
It is appropriate for most musical situations.

It should be choosable.

I'm also a little bit disappointed about DSI. It is actually a manufacturer with a very long history in the synth world.

br

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 12:36:38 PM »
Beat sync quantizes your performance from the keyboard, and whether or not to include such a behavior is actually a bit of a philosophical question.

Are you all aware that you can "clock" the arp and poly sequencer from the sequencer jack in the Prophet Rev2 (the P6/OB-6 and PDJ AS-1 also feature the sequencer jack)? This is achieve with any 0-5 VDC signal with a sharp transient edge, such as the trigger out from another synth/drum machine, a rimshot or similar sound from a drum machine that has individual voice outs, or an "analog" clock pulse from the eurorack world or some other piece of gear that features such an output. There are also dedicated devices out there that will convert MIDI clock to trigger pluses, like some of the Kenton boxes or the Future Retro Swynx.

When triggered in this manner, the arp/poly sequencer will always be perfectly in sync with the pulse received at the sequencer jack (with the global setting for the jack set to "trigger").
SEQUENTIAL

Propheteer

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 06:54:05 PM »
Gotta +1 the request for a 'Beat Sync' option (that doesn't involve sourcing an archaic method of audio pulse signalling like it's 1980) :)

I've had many, many synths, of those that had arpeggiators the best ones to use, the most inspiring, the most fun, all had BeatSync. Nearly all if not all Roland synths that had Arps had beat sync BY DEFAULT and became the 'world leaders' in ARP usage because of that. Modern Korgs often had the option for 'key latch' or 'free' (iirc) which was basically beat sync or not, again these arps are supremely playable and inspiring.

I love my Prophet Rev2, the best overall synth I've owned in years, and I've own close to 100 synths in the past 20 or so years, but it is a shame to see this issue is still being overlooked by DSI when so many people (who CAN in fact 'play in time' anyway) would really love it, to make an already great synth an even better one.

Just adding that option in the arp parameters would be a massive boost to arp usage/productivity.

And it really is nothing to do with 'playing in time', arps by their nature are sequencers, sequencers are meant to be locked to a beat or they defeat the purpose (I'm simplifying here but if not then we'd all just play these runs by hand ;) ). I play piano and I also play bass and guitar, my timing is rock solid, yet that has little to do with why you'd use 'beat sync' on an ARP.

As someone above mentioned, one great example is Juno 60 with its world famous arp, I've owned juno 60 and I also own polysix, one has beat sync the other doesn't (except via convoluted trigger input which aint nobody got time for in 2017 when hooked up via USB to a DAW already!). I used the Juno 60s arps all the times, I rarely used the Polysix's even though it had an overall better tone and was more fun in general as a synth.

Being able to hit a key before the beat but have it save the actual note change FOR the beat is an excellent system as it allows you to line up the next notes in advance without sitting there focusing only on that one aspect, it allows an arp to open up and feel like a real instrument rather than an idiosyncratic stresser, cos even if you did hit it perfectly in time the effect is rarely the same, it makes the arp feel clumsy ,tripping over itself, not very flowing etc.. at least 9 times out of 10 anyway, and if you have beat sync you play the arp (inc a single note hit to play an arp'd melody line) while your brain/hands go back to doing the next thing (sound tweaks or whatever).

Essentially if there is an internal tally on feature requests I will give 10 of my DSI vote points to this one issue. It's not that It'll kill me without it, it's just I'm unlikely to want to use the arp AT ALL without it and will have to resort to sequencing it (from a DAW or midi ARP plug in that does this), it's just not as fun, inspiring or useful without at least having the beat-sync option.

And for the record, more of the synths have had beat sync than not had it out of the many, many I've used inc analog and digital (VA). And arp is almost a gimmick without beat sync, not a useful tool. You'd be better playing live arpeggios by hand than using a 'stiff' and clumsy non beat sync'd arp imo (of course an arp triggered perfectly in time via a DAW is fine too and you can do that with the rev 2 but it's not good for composing/playing live/coming up with fresh inspirationg from arps)

« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 06:58:45 PM by Propheteer »

aeonn

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2017, 02:56:10 AM »
Thank you Propheteer for adding to the beat sync request as a feature. You detailed it better than I did and I could not agree more with what you said.

Also I don't get why a beat sync feature should become something "philosophical" as extempo said. Whether you want to play with clock sync or beat sync is up to you but has nothing to do with an over complicated conception of what an arpeggiator should be like. It is nothing but a technical feature. And once again, we are not asking to replace the clock sync, we are asking to ADD the beat sync function to the already existing clock sync. So why the fuss ?

As Propheteer explained, most of the inspiring synth have that option in the arp section. Bringing the REV2 to the pantheon of the best inspiring synth is a valid request.  ;)

Propheteer

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2017, 07:22:10 AM »
" Bringing the REV2 to the pantheon of the best inspiring synth is a valid request."

Exactly!

Funnily enough I was JUST using the arp after answering a guy about a preset (then making my own cool bass sound and ARPING it) and was once again disappointed by the lack of beat sync (optional!). It's so clumsy without it to get a locked in groove going, No matter how accurate you press a key on the beat it's not the same thing! I had a near moment of 'wow this amazing synth can also replace my Juno 60' based on the punchiness and sound I'd just dialed in, but alas, no.. not while it has an slightly inept arpeggiator function for THAT particular scenario.

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 11:48:36 PM »
I don't think that there will ever be a beat synced arpeggiator on a dsi instrument. that's why i sold the ob6 keyboard and now have the module version with a midi keyboard.

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 08:04:08 AM »
really disappointed with this and if I was still in my 30-day grace period, I'd probably have returned the REV2.

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2018, 12:23:51 AM »
I mentioned this behavior before also!

I noticed this first on the Prophet 6 when I had it before I swapped it for a REV2.

It's really impossible to play exactly right on time when you change the root note of an arpeggio or of a gated sequence for example.

It frustrated me again two days ago, when I needed to prepare the synth sequence for 'I Feel Love' (Summer / Moroder) for an upcoming live show on our national radio.

For that show I would only be using my Nord Stage 2 and the REV2 16V.

It's a very simple sequence to program, and it's just that sequence that is transposed to different root notes, so all I'd have to do is playing the root notes to be able to play the whole song.

Unfortunately, I simply couldn't get the timing of my gated sequence tight with the REV2, and believe me I'm not a bad piano & keys player...

Just a couple of milliseconds early / late and the groove is completely broken!!

I really don't understand why it's not possible to beat clock the sequencer / arpeggiator, or at least to leave the choice to have it beat synced or not up to the user...

The same evening, back home I did it over on my Moog Subsequent 37 and, just for fun, also on the Novation Bass Station 2.

With those two synths transposing the running sequence by playing a new root note worked like a charm, beat clocking perfectly in time, keeping the groove locked. This is REALLY the way it should be!

If I'm right, my polysix does it also, so NO it's not something exceptional and it's not something that only modern synths can do...

Now I've got my Subsequent 37 with me on stage for that song, and on the rehearsal yesterday I had a lot of fun with it. REV2 is only used for the pads now, and surely happy of the sound I got with it, yes...


Maybe one day DSI might consider to re-think about some of these 'issues' that people are requesting to address already long time, 3 of the most important of them are:

- BEAT CLOCKING: see above

- HOLD BEHAVIOR:

please make it user defined (making it possible to not only mixing all notes until full polyphony is reached, like is the case right now, but also being able to RE-LATCH every time a new note or chord is played like on a polysix, or like you can do with squarp pyramid, like what is possible with other synths / HW ...)

- CHORD MEMORY:

pleaso  make it more than 4 voices! Old Polysix does -hence the name- 6 voices of chord memory. I've got a REV2 16 (not an 8, yes) and I can't have more than 4 notes in chord memory, which is ridiculous!

With 5 notes in chord memory for example, you can play such nice 'house' ninth chords: 1 note in the bass (left hand) 4 notes for the other chord tones (richt hand)... I 'm sure in a lot of more styles and genres chord memory of more than 4 notes can be desired too...


Thanks again DSI for making these great prophet synths, but there's still some improvement in some of the functionality, which on some functions still is a little bit odd, at least for quite a few (live) musicians and performers out there...





jg666

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Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2018, 04:29:34 AM »
Hopefully you’ve all expressed your wishes to DSI support :)
DSI Prophet Rev2, DSI Pro 2, Moog Sub37, Korg Minilogue, Yamaha MOXF6, Yamaha MODX6, Yamaha Montage6

Flooman

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2018, 03:34:52 AM »
I'd like to have the beat sync function for playing live!
Send a message to DSI support.

LoboLives

Re: Arpeggiator/sequencer beat sync?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2018, 10:20:16 AM »
You could tap tempo it.