Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode

thorp

Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« on: December 29, 2015, 09:46:07 AM »
Hi everybody!

I noticed some strange behaviour when the P6 is switched to "LOCAL OFF" and the MIDI-data are going out and again into the P6 in NRPN-mode. In "CC"-mode many functions f.e. POY MOD are disable.

It doesn´t matter if I use the MIDI-ports or USB and if I send into and out of my DAW (Cubase7) or directly from the MIDI out to the MIDI in of the P6 with one cable. It is alway the same behaviour like the following:

1)  If I switch off the FX it is not possible to switch it on again. Only a move at the MIX-knob can awake the FX from this state (but only A or B).
2)  If I Switch off all the targets in the POLY MOD It is still possible to modulate something with the two knobs. I think it modulates the last targets being used in the POLY MOD though they are all switched off.
3)  If the sequencer is running it is not possible to transpose the sequence.

In "Local On"-mode there is no issue at all.
In "CC"-mode many functions are disable (in "local off")

Anybody else with this issues?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 09:59:05 AM by thorp »

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2015, 02:27:37 PM »
All the more reason I wish there was a limited 'local off' mode that kept the synthesis controls live. As it stands 'local off' is largely unusable for me. It's a shame when the keybed of the P6 feels so good and it would make a useful controller keyboard for me.

thorp

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2015, 02:51:41 PM »
I don't know if it's technically possible to create this. But might be the solution....
I am still waiting for reply from support.

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 03:15:06 PM »
All the more reason I wish there was a limited 'local off' mode that kept the synthesis controls live. As it stands 'local off' is largely unusable for me. It's a shame when the keybed of the P6 feels so good and it would make a useful controller keyboard for me.

I requested this via support ticket and DSI poopoo'ed the idea saying it is not official MIDI spec.. it doesn't make sense that the Keyboard Octave switch is disabled when in Local Off mode!

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2016, 05:31:52 PM »
I'd like to add a comment about DSI's handling of midi on the Prophet 6.

I've used the Prophet 6 for about 6 months now. I also own a Moog Sub 37. What stands out to me is this:
Event though DSI (ie. Dave Smith) is the "father of midi", my experience is that the implementation of midi in the Prophet 6 is troublesome at best. In contrast, the midi in my Sub 37 just works. Now, DSI might tell you they follow the specs more closely... As a user, this doesn't mean a whole lot to me. That's technical implementation details, that I, as a user, don't need to know/care about. I really wish the Prophet 6 had the same kind of no frills midi as the Sub 37.

I'll give you an example. When trying to sync the Prophet 6 sequencer to the tempo of my DAW, a couple of times it works correctly, the sequence in the Prophet 6 syncs, but after using this setup 4-5 times, it stops working. The only thing that would cure this, is to turn the Prophet 6 off and then on again. Then it would work 4-5 times again. Suspecting it might be a midi loop problem, I turned local off. Now the sync works all the time. However I now have no (and I mean no!) control over the synth. So the sequencer sync works, but nothing else does. I can't even change programs. Now, before you tell me local off is supposed to work that way, I'm already aware. That's not the point of my story. I have several other experiences, pointing in the same direction. On my Sub 37 it just works, the implementation is helpful and keeps out of your way, on the Prophet 6 it's not.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 02:07:48 AM by Telstar »

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2016, 01:09:37 PM »
All the more reason I wish there was a limited 'local off' mode that kept the synthesis controls live. As it stands 'local off' is largely unusable for me. It's a shame when the keybed of the P6 feels so good and it would make a useful controller keyboard for me.
+1 for a third Local Mode: Keyboard ONLY Local Off
On an instrument that is streamlined for ease of use the players do not want to deal with NRPNs and CCs in their DAW preferences just to be able to play the instrument AND still be able to push some buttons ...

After 6 month heavy usage this is my only grieve.

thorp

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2016, 07:19:23 AM »
The more I play it and try things in local off mode the more bugs I discover.
In my setup I only can use the P6 in local off mode so in fact it is unusable for me.
If the bugs are not solved soon I have to give it back, sorry.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2016, 07:25:01 AM »
Please tell me the Prophet 6 works fine as a keyboard controller.  By MIDI, it does control other modules without problems, correct? 

thorp

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2016, 07:49:46 AM »
By MIDI, it does control other modules without problems, correct?

If you only want to trigger the notes of the module and use the bender and the mod wheel that will work fine.
But note that some knobs send in CC and some only send in NRPN...

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2016, 07:52:45 AM »
Thanks.  Hopefully, this will be fixed, but as is, it's still good enough for my uses.

I wonder how well a P6 keyboard and module work polychained together.

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2016, 12:33:24 PM »
But note that some knobs send in CC and some only send in NRPN...

This is not a bug, it's by design. We only send CC for the parameters that are part of the original MIDI spec. NRPN gives the greatest flexibility for external parameter control; they're not limited by 128 steps of resolution nor does the original MIDI spec cover the sheer number of additional parameters that have been introduced since the spec was written.

The other Local Off bugs you mention have been verified and we're working on a new OS internally. Expect a beta OS to surface with the fix on this forum sometime after NAMM, likely in mid to late February. If this timeline changes I will update you via this thread.
SEQUENTIAL | OBERHEIM

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 03:25:11 PM »
All the more reason I wish there was a limited 'local off' mode that kept the synthesis controls live. As it stands 'local off' is largely unusable for me. It's a shame when the keybed of the P6 feels so good and it would make a useful controller keyboard for me.

I requested this via support ticket and DSI poopoo'ed the idea saying it is not official MIDI spec.. it doesn't make sense that the Keyboard Octave switch is disabled when in Local Off mode!
Given that it's not official MIDI spec, I would expect all the DSI synths to have the same "all-or-nothing" local off mode. However, last night I was playing with my Mono Evolver Keyboard and found that local off works as we would like it to! All the knobs, buttons, program change etc. were all still live with local off. Only 3 octaves but it's now a very useful controller keyboard for recording into my sequencer. Actually a very nice playable keybed. Second only to the P6 here.

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2016, 05:20:56 AM »
This is not a bug, it's by design. We only send CC for the parameters that are part of the original MIDI spec.

Please don't ignore that many users simply don't want to transfer knob movements over MIDI.
Even if the software would work perfectly (it does not):
Controller data always calls for MIDI Timing issues.

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2016, 08:57:19 AM »
This is not a bug, it's by design. We only send CC for the parameters that are part of the original MIDI spec.

Please don't ignore that many users simply don't want to transfer knob movements over MIDI.
Even if the software would work perfectly (it does not):
Controller data always calls for MIDI Timing issues.

What Robot Heart is referring to in the comment you quoted is that fact that there are 127 CCs in the original MIDI spec, most of which are earmarked for specific functions. There are more front panel controls on many of our synths than there are available CCs, so if a particular control does not transmit a CC, this is not a bug but rather our adherence to the MIDI spec. All front panel controls can, however, transmit NRPNs.

If you don't want the front panel controls on your synth to transmit any MIDI messages, neither CCs nor NRPNs, just set the "Param Xmit" global to OFF.
SEQUENTIAL

Re: Several bugs in "LOCAL OFF"-mode
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 03:43:51 AM »
What Robot Heart is referring to in the comment you quoted is that fact that there are 127 CCs in the original MIDI spec, most of which are earmarked for specific functions. There are more front panel controls on many of our synths than there are available CCs, so if a particular control does not transmit a CC, this is not a bug but rather our adherence to the MIDI spec. All front panel controls can, however, transmit NRPNs.
Thanks, I have understand this.

If you don't want the front panel controls on your synth to transmit any MIDI messages, neither CCs nor NRPNs, just set the "Param Xmit" global to OFF.
That would be an easy solution but if I do that in Local off mode I am not able to edit any sound!
Exactly that is the reason some of us (o.k. two of us edit: way more than two) would love to see a a partial Local Ctrl mode.

http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,157.0.html
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 04:42:08 AM by solitud »