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Ok, talk me through it

dsetto

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Ok, talk me through it
« on: May 22, 2017, 12:13:44 PM »
Getting jitters on the Prophet Rev 2. I'm going for my first deep knobby poly. Waited forever, figuring to go high end once ready. To me high end is 2-3k. (I respect the stuff beyond that. But not for me, today.)

Rev 2 announcement, and my readiness aligned, so I knew this is it. So, now that it's announced, getting my first jitters of commitment. I'm not a buy & sell guy. I buy, and if I have an issue with it, I'll keep at it until I get it to serve me. And when I encounter "fundamental" problems, I'll almost always work around them, to serve me.

Buy both isn't an answer for me. Yeah, maybe in a bunch, bunch of years I can buy another one. But I don't care about then.

I have a cursory but solid sense of the landscape. I knew rev 2 was for me, without hearing a demo. Specs plus a few key questions answered was what I needed.

Here's what I've got it boiled down to:
1. Prophet Rev 2.
the niggle:
2. OB-6
3. what poly does Moog have up its sleeve?

---
Fundamentals why r2 is 1 for me.
- 5 octaves, bi-timbral, 16 voices, synthesis to captivate and inspire me for a lifetime (relative to my pace), primitive sequencing, 4 outs, nice keybed
- I am happy to get all that above, with "acceptable" tone (knowing that every tone, hi-fi, mid-fi, and lo-fi has value). I am being knowingly harsh using "acceptable"; but you all have to get what I'm getting at. (I'm a big DSI fan.)

Why the OB-6 niggles me? (I don't even know what niggles is.) Tone. That timbre. That sound. I like it. (I fully appreciate, respect the Prophet 6 sound, capability.) I'm in a season where I tend towards telecaster raw, instead of stratocaster wide range, versatility, and smooth-rounded. (Not to say OB6 can't do smooth.)

Dave, thanks! This is a conundrum of riches! One not available 10 years ago, 8 years ago. Thank YOU! and your team, DSI! Seriously. Anyone who likes polys should show at least respect for this fact. This isn't 'market speak'. This is market speaks. Look at market, look at past 10 years. it speaks. But, I digress.

So, OB-6. I like it's tone. Yeah. That will not change. Everything I've said about Rev 2 remains. The one thing I said about OB6 remains. Not really reconcilable. Right? Yeah, I can do things to approximate the feeling of what I'm talking about on the Rev 2.

In fact, that alone is a wonderful creative energy. And I suppose there's my answer, right? ... Satisfy my fundamentals. ... Ouch! What is the fundamental? For me, rhythm. But that's the same in both, right? I am talking about hyper-sensitive latency response. My gut tells me, there's a chance it could be better in the OB6. And only spending a fair amount of time on both, might I detect it. AND, I know, it's so small that it's a pursuit not necessary.

Sometimes I value tone. Sometimes I value features. For my personal needs, I think I can go a lot further with the rev 2. I want a one-keyboard performance solution. I'm a piano player. The rev 2 will simply get me further along. ... Splits are practical. Two sounds. One board. One setup. My studio is tiny. (Which can be a plus with the 4-octave high class approach.)

Ok, so, I'll stop with that, on that.

And then, there's the "what will" on the Moog poly. But, one can only wait so long. In the end, DSI's got a solid handle on poly. (understatement) Can't go wrong with that track record.

I'm begging for your thoughts on my pre-rev 2 purchase jitters. Fully appreciative for your time.

P.S. Is listening to OB-6 demos dumb?! That + a coffee wrote this post.
P.P.S. I'm currently not pursuing modules. (I.e., adding an OB-6 module to rev 2 is smart. But not for me, for now.)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:18:00 PM by dsetto »

dsetto

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Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 12:34:08 PM »
P.P.P.S.

If I had to pick one thing I am trying to satisfy in this purchase, it's a programmable synthesizer that I can pour my piano playing into.*

On this front, in a weird way, everything I wrote above still applies. Rev 2 wins on features front. All those things I wrote I can use to better emulate my personal piano playing experience.

I recall encountering a piano-like timbre with the OB-6 that I had never encountered before; and I decided that was something specific to the OB-6 timbre. It was a resonance related matter. A harmonic collection thing. I think. In the lower mid range.

But -- honestly, I prefer emulating the playing experience rather than an emulative timbre. And 4 deeper-programmable, layered oscs (or 6 with subs) and 8 voices, & 5 octaves is gonna get me closer, on that front. Or, 2 (+ sub) with 16 voices, does it in a timbrally simpler way. (Those extra oscs can get me soundboard soup analogies.)

I think the answer is ...
don't listen to OB-6 demos. I think I was right to make a decision without listening to OB-6 demos.

* What I like about synthesizers is that I can have the exact opposite intention, too.

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 12:37:43 PM »
I sense buyer's jitters.  There' no way around them.  I'm sure you've done your research on the instruments; now you just have to man up and take the plunge.  When you get the Rev2, spend a lot of time with it for a couple of weeks to make absolutely certain it's what you want.  If it isn't, return it and try an OB-6.  Then again, how can you adapt your piano playing to a four-octave keyboard?  If both instruments strike you, then save up for an OB-6 Module, control it with your Rev2 keyboard, and have that extra octave.

You know you're going to love the Rev2.  And don't waste your time waiting for a Moog poly.  The company hasn't shown interest in such an instrument, even though a sizeable portion of their clientele has been screaming for it for years.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 02:05:30 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

MDMA

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 01:13:00 PM »
I too share your jitters! In the meantime I have purchased both a Pro 2 (which in my view is a classic) and a Sub 37....oh yeah and a JDXA.

I nearly pre ordered a Rev about 10 times (no lie), but just before pushing that button, listened back through demos and held off. The issue I have is that no demo has really stood out for me yet, they ALL sound very organic and plinky plonky....not my sound at all. I know very well that the synth itself is way more capable than any demo I've heard so far and the specs and modulation are way beyond what sounds I've heard. This is why I've always gone back to the pre order because I know how good DSI's are, I mean....the Pro 2 is just beautiful!!!

I guess I just can't bring myself to put myself through what you're going through, even though I know it's going to sound amazing, I'd rather wait and hear it for myself and purchase it then, rather than torment myself each night until it arrives.

IMO, you've bought yourself a keeper and when it arrives you'll spend nights alone with it telling it how wrong you were and that you'll never doubt it again.
DSI Rev2, Moog sub 37, Roland JDXA, DSI Pro 2, Novation Ultranova, Access Virus TI, Roland Juno 106, Roland Alpha Juno 2, Korg KingKorg

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2017, 01:29:27 PM »
Difficult question. You pretty much covered all of the important aspects. My advice is a trivial one: Get your hands on both units if an adequate dealer is close to you.

One more thing on the seemingly obvious point about features vs simplicity (REV2 vs OB-6): Specs don't tell everything and as a P-6 owner I can tell you that I would never call the latter not complex enough when it comes to actual sonic variety - and I'm positive that the same can be said of the OB-6. In other words: In providing 'only' one LFO and the PolyMod/X-Mod both of these synths are anything but lame for the sound design department. And by saying that I'm not trying to advocate that "instant gratifiction" should be the way to go. I only like to point out that specs alone are only one part of the equation that doesn't say anything about how the interaction with a particular instrument feels like, let alone whether the sonic characteristics speak to you. That makes hands-on testing mandatory again. My approach was always: Before you go to the dealer, check the according manual for how to initiate the basic patch and start from there.

Oh, and for the sonic flexibility of the OB-6 you should check out this EP: https://soundcloud.com/body-in-the-thames/sets/stone-soup-ep

Please don't hate me for posting yet another OB-6 demo.  ;)

As for a Moog Poly: I tend to agree with Sacred Synthesis on this one. It will a) either not happen, or b) be beyond your given price range (when averagely feature rich), or c) be very basic to keep it around 3 grand. I also don't think it would add anything particularly substantial to the poly synth market other than the Moog filter.

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2017, 01:49:31 PM »
I nearly pre ordered a Rev about 10 times (no lie), but just before pushing that button, listened back through demos and held off. The issue I have is that no demo has really stood out for me yet, they ALL sound very organic and plinky plonky....not my sound at all. I know very well that the synth itself is way more capable than any demo I've heard so far and the specs and modulation are way beyond what sounds I've heard. This is why I've always gone back to the pre order because I know how good DSI's are, I mean....the Pro 2 is just beautiful!!!

Hang in there.  There will soon be an explosion of Rev2 demonstrations.
"Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

- Henry David Thoreau

The Musical Synthesizer YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChLGwGiRVs7rlZXnOG9_mUw

The Musical Synthesizer Blog: https://themusicalsynthesizer.wordpress.com

dslsynth

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Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 01:55:36 PM »
Best advice is patience and taking the time to check out demo videos and try it out yourself in a music store.
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 02:08:39 PM »
This won't help you at all, but I do wish I could pick up a Rev 2. It has everything I want out of a synth, at least on paper. One of the tricky things about the Rev 2 is the way it ticks so many requirement checkboxes. Multitimbral (well bitimbral) check. Five octave keyboard: check. Effects: check. Step sequencer: check. Sixteen voices: check. How could I not buy it?

The OB-6 is definitely a different beast. It doesn't check any of these checkboxes except the effects and step sequencer.

What I think though is that it's a heart vs. mind thing. If you turn into a puddle of goo when you hear the Oberheim buzzing away, you must get the OB-6. If you're looking for an analog sonic laboratory that you an create a zillion sounds with, the Rev 2 should not disappoint.

The one synth to rule them all still doesn't exist as far as I know. Maybe Dave Sauron Instruments will invent it one day.

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 02:56:08 PM »
I'm sure you'll be happy with the Rev 2.  Sounds between the two will be somewhat different, but as you get more experienced with sound design on the Rev 2, you will have no regrets.  You may want to get an OB-6 in the future, but you won't want to get rid of the Rev 2 in its place.
Jim Thorburn .  Toys-  Dave Smith: Prophet 08;
Pro 2; Prophet 12; EastWest Orchestral soft synths; Yamaha S-90; Yamaha Montage 8, Yamaha DX-7; KARP Odyssey; Ensoniq ESQ-1.  All run through a Cubase DAW with a Tascam DM-24 board.

LoboLives

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2017, 05:34:49 PM »
Personally I'd be more interested in getting a Prophet 6 module to place alongside my Prophet 6 keyboard than a Rev2. I'd have to try a Rev2 in person, initialize a patch and see how quickly I can come up with stuff and program. There are a few minor quibbles I have with it but that's just due to personal taste I think. For me though the Rev2 is way down the list of "wants."

dsetto

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Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2017, 12:56:18 AM »
Thank you, all, so much! Thanks for understanding where I'm at. I agree with just about all the thoughts offered. Good night/morning. Tomorrow, I'd like to highlight a few of my favorite thoughts. My jitters have been lessened thanks to the support here.

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2017, 04:27:45 AM »
P.P.P.S.

If I had to pick one thing I am trying to satisfy in this purchase, it's a programmable synthesizer that I can pour my piano playing into.*

On this front, in a weird way, everything I wrote above still applies. Rev 2 wins on features front. All those things I wrote I can use to better emulate my personal piano playing experience.

I recall encountering a piano-like timbre with the OB-6 that I had never encountered before; and I decided that was something specific to the OB-6 timbre. It was a resonance related matter. A harmonic collection thing. I think. In the lower mid range.

But -- honestly, I prefer emulating the playing experience rather than an emulative timbre. And 4 deeper-programmable, layered oscs (or 6 with subs) and 8 voices, & 5 octaves is gonna get me closer, on that front. Or, 2 (+ sub) with 16 voices, does it in a timbrally simpler way. (Those extra oscs can get me soundboard soup analogies.)

I think the answer is ...
don't listen to OB-6 demos. I think I was right to make a decision without listening to OB-6 demos.

* What I like about synthesizers is that I can have the exact opposite intention, too.

Sounds like the 16-voice unit may be what you're after (or a Prophet-12, at 12 voices), if the ability to let notes sustain is high on your experience list.
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2017, 06:27:36 AM »
I already have the ob6 so when i get the rev2 you can ask me anything you want. If you're in LA, you can come by my place and play them both to you hearts content . :D
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 06:38:20 AM by Morgenspaziergang »

LoboLives

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2017, 09:11:46 AM »
I'd honestly suggest you ask yourself some questions.

1.) Am I playing live with the intended instrument or just studio based? If you are studio only...is bi timbral really needed or just a "nice to have"? If you are going live, do you want to take an expensive piece of gear on the road? Pros and Cons to both.

2.) Do I want to spend more time programming or playing? I prefer the P6 and OB6 layout over the Rev2 any day. I like everything on the front panel. My biggest issue with the Rev 2 is I have to scroll to find patches instead of random access (This was removed on the Rev2 to keep costs down),so switching between patches on the fly can be tricky (I don't see any plus or minus buttons). Also...it seems like I'll have to spend more time trying to program the Rev2 in regards to it's Bi-Timbrality. Can I modulate one patch while the other one sequences away and is unaffected by me turning the Filter Cutoff? Well I have to figure that out, as the layout on the panel is dedicated to a single engine. I would have preferred the design to be as if you have two desktop modules side by side and in the middle have the "Split" "Stack" etc buttons. So that way I can monitor both patches at once and do everything with as little menu diving as possible.

After you contemplate these questions. Go to your music store, and right away, before anything, initialize a patch. Start from scratch and see how quickly you can start creating YOUR sound. See the workflow. Feel the layout.

Go back home and review the above questions once more. It took me over a year to decide to get the Prophet 6 over the 08 or 12 and right now I'm contemplating between stuff myself so I know them feelz. ;)

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2017, 10:11:12 AM »
There's barely any menu-diving on the Rev2. Pretty much the only thing you need a menu for is the Misc Params because everything else is on the front panel. Even assigning mod sources and destinations, including the LFOs, can be done without looking at the display.

Bi-timbral is an option, not a requirement. If you're not aiming to make bi-timbral programs you will never encounter this feature and it certainly won't get in the way of programming. Can you modulate one patch while the other one sequences away and is unaffected by me turning the Filter Cutoff? Absolutely, and you can always tell where you are by the state of a single button; Edit B.

With this one button, it is extremely easy to determine what you're editing whether it's stack, split, or A/B layers. If the Edit B button is not selected, the front panel controls layer A (default state). If Edit B is active, the front panel controls layer B. If you press and hold Edit B for one second, it starts flashing and the front panel controls both layers simultaneously.
SEQUENTIAL

LoboLives

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2017, 10:37:13 AM »
There's barely any menu-diving on the Rev2. Pretty much the only thing you need a menu for is the Misc Params because everything else is on the front panel. Even assigning mod sources and destinations, including the LFOs, can be done without looking at the display.

Bi-timbral is an option, not a requirement. If you're not aiming to make bi-timbral programs you will never encounter this feature and it certainly won't get in the way of programming. Can you modulate one patch while the other one sequences away and is unaffected by me turning the Filter Cutoff? Absolutely, and you can always tell where you are by the state of a single button; Edit B.

With this one button, it is extremely easy to determine what you're editing whether it's stack, split, or A/B layers. If the Edit B button is not selected, the front panel controls layer A (default state). If Edit B is active, the front panel controls layer B. If you press and hold Edit B for one second, it starts flashing and the front panel controls both layers simultaneously.

Hmmm good to know. Thanks.

dsetto

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Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2017, 10:39:11 AM »
Controlling both layers at the same time, and easy access to do so. Wow!

--
I am very appreciative of the responses, and am taking them in.

(I use it for both performance and studio.)

LoboLives

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2017, 10:48:56 AM »
Controlling both layers at the same time, and easy access to do so. Wow!

--
I am very appreciative of the responses, and am taking them in.

(I use it for both performance and studio.)

Then I'd go with the Rev2.

Actually another question I have is when you are in split mode or stack mode can a single sequence be controlling both patches? Meaning can I record a poly sequence once using both patches or do I have to re-record the poly sequence again on each patch?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 10:51:56 AM by LoboLives »

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2017, 11:29:41 AM »
You can't record a sequence to both layers simultaneously. But, you can easily copy or swap a sequence between layers as described in the Rev2 manual under the Sequencer section.
SEQUENTIAL

Re: Ok, talk me through it
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2017, 12:25:28 PM »
As for jitters, the one thing I am concerned about regarding the Rev 2 is how closely it will sound like the Tetra and reproduce my custom patches. I presume it will load the patches (minus a sub oscillator), but does the Rev 2 have that sound? Still waiting for user feedback on that point.
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