Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?

Sacred Synthesis

Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« on: April 27, 2017, 02:31:38 PM »
Thus far, I've deliberately avoided vintage instruments.  Everything I have was purchased brand new within the last eight years.  But from time to time, I have a second thought about it.  Not that I'm considering used instruments, but what about re-issues or modern revisions meant to sound identical to the originals?  What about Hammond XK's and SK's, the Digital Mellotron, or perhaps even the Minimoog?  The question concerns, not the instruments, but the music.  Can a musician make fresh new music with such overly recognizable sounds?  Can he or she have a new start, or is there no escape from the 70's and 80's associations? 

I was faintly considering a new mellotron today - only considering it.  But would I pay for it by sounding like a throwback?  Could the music I would make with it be spared the label "progressive," even though it certainly wouldn't be rock?  Would I have to live with being told that a new composition sounds good because it sounds like Tony Banks?  Is it simply impossible to use such instruments to make modern original music because of the inescapable associations from the past, so that even a new piece would seem to sound like an old one?  I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinions on this.  And I certainly don't mean to limit the discussion to the mellotron, but about the whole lot of famous vintage keyboard instruments. 

My opinion is negative.  I don't think it's possible, which is why I've chosen the way of new - although old school - instruments.  I'd be fascinated to have a mellotron, but I think I would be kissing good-bye all hopes of having a fresh original sound, no matter what I composed with it.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 02:52:23 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

chysn

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Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 03:09:21 PM »
I think I'd say Yes. I think the question is formally-identical to the question "Can piano music be written that doesn't sound like Beethoven?" If you avoid the idioms of style and rhythm and melody that are widely-associated with a sound, then there you go. That's easier said than done, of course.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 03:19:27 PM by chysn »
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Sacred Synthesis

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2017, 04:59:37 PM »
Obviously, one can make piano music that doesn't sound like Beethoven and that won't associate oneself in peoples' minds with him.  This would also be true for pipe organ, harpsichord, and so on.  However, I think modern electronic instruments are a different case because certain musicians made their name with certain instruments - not synthesizers or organs in general, but very specific synthesizer or organ models.  For example, if you look at YouTube videos of the ARP Pro Soloist, you'll find one after another in which the person playing it is performing some famous bit by Tony Banks.  It's as if Banks comes built-in with the Pro Soloist. 

Also, the question definitely has to do with one's audience.  Certain people - namely, those who grew up listening to these vintage instruments - almost involuntarily hear the association.  Minimoog sound = Emerson.  Pro Soloist sound = Banks.  CS 80 sound = Vangelis.  And so on.  If one is to use vintage instruments or their modern re-issues or emulations, I think one has to find another audience, one that will not make the vintage instrument/70's and 80's associations.  But this is not easy to do, especially in the age of YouTube.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 05:28:42 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

chysn

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Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2017, 07:33:46 PM »
For example, if you look at YouTube videos of the ARP Pro Soloist, you'll find one after another in which the person playing it is performing some famous bit by Tony Banks.  It's as if Banks comes built-in with the Pro Soloist.

Playing a Tony Banks riff isn't the same as trying to make new music. If somebody plays Tony Banks music on an instrument that Tony Banks used, then what do you expect?

Maybe the Pro Soloist isn't a great example, because it's a steaming pile of crap. But I certainly think fresh stuff can be done with a Minimoog or Odyssey.
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chysn

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Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2017, 07:49:24 PM »
I sort of get what you're saying. We associate sounds with artists. Maybe specific instruments haven't had enough time to become timeless. Maybe that takes more decades than they've had. But the thing that drives music history is reliable radical departure. If you react against something strongly enough, you can overcome its power.
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Sacred Synthesis

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 08:57:09 PM »
Opinions about particular instruments aside, it's a question of starting anew with the old.  There's no doubt that it's possible on the composer's side, but is it possible for others to receive old sounds with new music and not see it as - well - the old continued?  I'm not trying to be philosophical here at all.  I'm being merely practical. 

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2017, 04:55:18 AM »
The converse of this, "Can vintage music be made with new instruments?", is also true–the most important common thread being the ability of the player / programmer to look outside of the native context of the instrument.

One might find it instructive to reference factory presets for programming / signal routing ideas, but I also find it useful to blast / normalize / reset all of the preset locations so that one MUST create patches from scratch.

For myself–I am finding that my requirements for polyphonic subtractive synthesizer voice count are not what they used to be; I can get by with some stacked oscillators (two voices, two oscs each) or even a divide-down / paraphonic tone generator. (I blame the Pro-2 for this, likely the gateway drug to an eventual decline into a large Eurorack setup!)
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2017, 05:38:23 AM »
That’s a complex question. In general, I would agree with Chysn and say that one can of course write new pieces on all kind of instruments. However, cultural contexts of the past are significant when it comes to how we perceive particular instruments, or more precisely: what we tend to associate with certain instruments. Hence, historical contexts and pop-cultural references continue to play a big role.

With regard to the synthesizer in particular, the question about old vs. new also touches upon the infamous discourse about whether a synthesizer should have a keyboard or not, as it has been exemplified by the case “Buchla vs. Moog” (as this is generally too bold, I put it into quotation marks). No matter on which side you are, no matter what your musical and performative preferences are, I think that it can be agreed upon that Buchla had a valid point insofar as he was coming from a historically justified perspective when problematizing the attachment of a keyboard to a synth, since all instruments of the past always used to have their own and unique ways of being played. So I think, at least in an objective manner, him questioning why the synthesizer of all instruments should be associated with the keyboard goes back to a reasonable objection that is not exclusively tied to any kind of avant-garde agenda, but to a deeply historical consciousness about the peculiarity of musical instruments.

The same goes of course for keyboards themselves, as a keyboard is not always just a keyboard. In the case of the piano, the keyboard is the expressive source of how a sound is being triggered and articulated in the most fundamental way. In the case of the organ and most keyboard synthesizers, the keyboard is a simple on and off (or gate) switch that doesn’t allow for any sonic variety and certainly does not set in motion any sonic waves. Even Aftertouch and velocity are just very simplified workarounds that don’t reach the complexity of the manner the keyboard acts on a piano, except one has the option to assign dozens of modulations to those input sources that can approximate the complex and subtle variances the piano keyboard is known to control.

Of course I took quite a detour from the original topic, but I just wanted to refer to the underlying and general problems that are somewhat related to your more specific question.

Aside from that, I think that the question about how easy or hard it’s going to be to make new or different music with all the instruments that have been named so far, depends very much on the preconceived notions that are attached to those instruments. I’d say it varies in each case.

The pipe organ, the first mechanical additive synthesizer, is quite an extreme case, as it’s mostly not only associated with a certain type of genre (sacred music), but also the according place (church). The majority of people probably don’t think of composers like Gustav Mahler, who used the organ in conjunction with his massive orchestra, or György Ligeti (the piece “Volumina” has to be mentioned as one of the most avant-garde pieces for a pipe organ here I guess). To a slightly different but yet comparable degree, the same goes for the harpsichord, which is almost exclusively associated with the Baroque era although its sound has certainly made it into some pop classics, most notably “Golden Brown” by the Stranglers.
The acoustic piano on the other hand has been pretty much continuously present in all kinds of contexts from the days of its introduction. You’ll find it in classical, romantic, and avant-garde pieces as much as in all kinds of popular styles like Jazz, Pop, Rock, Alternative, and whatsoever. Part of its popularity is also related to its career in bourgeois households from the 19th century onwards and the fact that it was regarded as the one-man orchestra substitute due to its wide tonal range and playability (the tradition of the piano arrangement of almost any orchestral piece is a testament to that, which has not only popular or commercial reasons, but practical ones in the daily rehearsal life of any opera house).
The Hammond organ is again more specifically associated with particular styles. These still cover genres like Gospel, Jazz, Rock (both mainstream and so-called progressive), and Pop. But it almost continuously evokes a familiar notion just like the famous trademark sounds of a Gibson, Gretsch, or Fender guitar.
Regarding the connected associations, the Mellotron is probably amongst those instruments that are most determined by the historical context within they first appeared in. Being one of the first sample playback devices, its sound is characterized by the rather unsophisticated technology of the day plus I’d say that it always already sounded old from the get-go. It just has that ‘playing an old record’ flavor to it. And yeah, all those trademark sounds, like the flutes, strings, and choirs makes you either immediately think of the Beatles’ “Strawberry Fields Forever” or various Prog hymns from King Crimson to Genesis and so on.
As for the Minimoog I’d say it depends on its use. Being a synthesizer, it of course has the advantage of being adjusted in different ways. It doesn’t always have to appear as the Keith Emmerson solo machine. In fact, there are lots of Brian Eno records on which you wouldn’t even recognize it. And rather current bands like Portishead, for example, also don’t make it sound like the typical Prog solo machine. So time and many recordings have proven that it can also be used as an ensemble machine (that integrates well with a band’s sound instead of being at the forefront) and with different sounds and timbres that don’t scream: “I’m the famous Minimoog that does those funky basses or Prog leads.”
The Arp Pro Soloist is a different matter, as it’s rather a preset machine with – for its time – flexible real-time tone articulation controls (mostly related to its Aftertouch function). Other than that it’s not really a synthesizer, as it doesn’t provide the user with the tools to synthesize anything. That it is mostly associated with Tony Banks has only to do with the fact that he was amongst the very few rather known players who used one due to not wanting to replicate the Minimoog standard that was already established by then and I guess also due to the rather practical fact that he didn’t earn much money at around that time. I think David Bowie used one on “Low” or “Heroes” too, but not as recognizably. Banks’ choice in that regard says also a lot about him not really being a synthesist, but mostly a keyboard player that occasionally processed sounds (mostly his Clavinet and RMI electric piano with a fuzz box and his organ with a Phaser) and who later naturally welcomed samplers as the perfect solution for him. After all, he’s not really known for having had a great affinity for programming. He might have used a whole lot of classics later, but mostly with presets. He even had the studios’ ARP 2500 and 2600 being programmed by producer David Hentschel. Even on the Prophet-5 and 10 he mostly used presets or slight variations thereof. I think his most notable piece as a synthesist must be the piece “Who Dunnit?”, where he played the Prophet-5 while switching patches, which produced funny noisy artifacts. Dave btw. always wrongly attributed this to Brian Eno in the past.

So while I would generally agree with Chysn, I do still think that the question about how easy it is to produce new or different music on these instruments varies with regard to each instrument’s history and its (pop-)cultural connotation. Of all the named ones, I think that the piano and the Minimoog probably allow for easier solutions across different genres while it’s more of a challenge regarding the other ones.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 05:46:37 AM by Paul Dither »

LoboLives

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 06:48:55 AM »
Creativity doesn't come from the instruments, only how you used them.

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 09:16:02 AM »
I came around to this question simply by considering, from time to time, one of those vintage revisions.  I had a Hammond XK 3C a few years ago.  It was a beautiful instrument in many ways, but that drawbar sound - even I couldn't shake the associations, which spoiled the instrument for me.  My wife would blanch every time she heard it as well.  Those blasted mental associations!  But the new Digital Mellotron and the Minimoog re-issue most recently got me thinking on this question again.  They're both great instruments - even the mellotron has the potential to be a fine instrument - but having such instruments in one's set up comes at a price; that price is a certain difficulty in composing, in that you (or I, at least) would feel compelled to avoid the many sounds that most ring of the progressive era.  And those sounds, unfortunately, happen to be good sounds.

Another issue is one's audience.  One of the most irritating compliments I get from YouTubers is approximately, "Great music and great patches; sounds just like Banks, Gabriel, or Phillips."  That's the worst comment in the world to me, even though I realize it's intended as a compliment.  It reminds me again of this issue.  A huge part of the YouTube audience is middle-aged and was formed during the 70's and 80's.  For this group, the associations are unavoidable; they're habitual.  So, my response - against my own musical leanings - is to distance myself from any overtly vintage-sounding patches, which isn't so easy.  So, as much as I would like to use a mellotron sound drowned in reverb, I won't.  The same for the drawbar organ sound, RMI electric piano, ARP Soloist sounds, and so on.  What patches I use that resemble such sounds I try to somewhat alter.  And the same is certainly true for the pipe organ sound.  Nothing was more cliché during the progressive era than adding a series of loud pipe organ chord progressions to a song.  Hence, I even try to avoid that pitfall, which is why I design an organ sound, rather than emulate one with sampling or other precise means. 

The end of it all is that I'm better off sticking with new instruments.  Although my natural leaning is towards vintage sounds and instruments, I can't allow it.  I'm relieved that the character of the Prophet '08, for example, doesn't resemble that closely the Prophet 5.  Yep, I'm glad.  The same is true for the Poly Evolver regarding any other instrument, except the Prophet VS.  Dave Smith's instruments are obviously in the old school category regarding both sound and design, but they don't too closely resemble other vintage instruments.  For example, the Prophet 08's sawtooth solo patch - as much as it was very much a standard sound from the past - doesn't really resemble another instrument.  I dare say, it's somewhat generic, and this is a good thing for those of us who want to shake off the past and start fresh.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:29:50 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

LoboLives

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 09:56:35 AM »
Again, it's how you use them and program these instruments. They don't have to sound like throwbacks unless you want them to. The Hammond has a distinct sound...so mess with the sound and run it through a distorted amp or put a fuzz pedal in front of it...or run it through an MS20 filter section. Run a Mellotron into an Eventide Harmonizer and Fulltone Tube Tape Echo. The only limitations are in your mind and your association with the sounds.

I mean I was thinking, I can program a great organ sound on the Prophet 6...now what would happen if I ran it through a Magnatone Amp with a pitch shifting vibrato? Listening to it, one would assume it's an organ at first listen but listening closely something would be off about it and thus it creates a new sound.

That's why my dad loves the Roland V Piano. He likes the fact it doesn't sound totally like a piano, something is off about it if you program it a certain way.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:58:20 AM by LoboLives »

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 05:07:19 PM »
Yes, I get that.  But what's the point of having to make an instrument sound like something other than it is?  You might as well get another instrument.  That actually makes my original negative point.  Plus, all that processing is a pain in the neck.  The question is, can one make new music with the familiar sounds of vintage instruments and still sound relevant and fresh?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 05:48:23 PM by Sacred Synthesis »

LoboLives

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 09:52:35 PM »
Yes, I get that.  But what's the point of having to make an instrument sound like something other than it is?  You might as well get another instrument.  That actually makes my original negative point.  Plus, all that processing is a pain in the neck.  The question is, can one make new music with the familiar sounds of vintage instruments and still sound relevant and fresh?

I mean that's relative to the genre of music. N.W.A. used Minimoogs and so did Genesis do you think they sound the same?

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2017, 05:37:12 AM »
Yes, I get that.  But what's the point of having to make an instrument sound like something other than it is?  You might as well get another instrument.  That actually makes my original negative point.  Plus, all that processing is a pain in the neck.  The question is, can one make new music with the familiar sounds of vintage instruments and still sound relevant and fresh?

You establish the context, not the instrument / object itself. (Sounds like a contemporary philosophy course....)

If you wish to make the instrument sound "vintage", and to play in a throwback style to support that context, it will sound as intended. But it's all in your mind, so to speak.

Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard with Yorick Tech LFE, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Six-Trak, Prophet 2000

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 08:03:41 AM »
Yes, I get that.  But what's the point of having to make an instrument sound like something other than it is?  You might as well get another instrument.  That actually makes my original negative point.  Plus, all that processing is a pain in the neck.  The question is, can one make new music with the familiar sounds of vintage instruments and still sound relevant and fresh?

You establish the context, not the instrument / object itself. (Sounds like a contemporary philosophy course....)

If you wish to make the instrument sound "vintage", and to play in a throwback style to support that context, it will sound as intended. But it's all in your mind, so to speak.

Generally yes, but if you don't process particular sounds, the instruments tend to sound the same and will hence continue to evoke certain associations beyond what's being played on them. I think what Sacred Synthesis was pointing at is that there's hardly any instrument that doesn't have its historicity inscribed to it or is not a cultural signifier in and by itself already. After all, the medium (in this case: the instrument) is the message too. So in that sense, choosing a particular instrument can always work as if you were quoting something - a practice that has been perfected in pop culture not only with regard to stylistic references. Take a Fender Stratocaster with the PU selector switch in the 2nd position and drive it through a spring reverb and most people will think of the surf guitar sound, no matter what you actually play.

You can of course juxtapose many layers of different instruments just as different genres or use a sampling strategy in order to process certain sounds to alienate them. Per definition, the synthesizer will of course always be on the side of the more flexible instruments, as it can technically be as many instruments as you can program. A Prophet-5 doesn't have to sound like it's 1980, just like a DX7 is about more than just cheesy E-Pianos.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:09:08 AM by Paul Dither »

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2017, 04:39:37 PM »

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2017, 10:57:02 AM »
I had been meaning to add my 36db to this thread for a few days, but it benefited from my silence.

I've actually been thinking about this in the past in regard my own music, and trying to avoid too many musical cliches.  Sacred Synthesis is right in particular about the Mellotron, and by association the other tape machine the Chamberlin.  Those instruments are about as cliche as it gets, and is likely why Patrick Moraz didn't use one on the I album till the very end, or did so sparingly and deep in the mix.  I've come up with some great Mellotron emulating patches on my keyboards in the past, but I've consciously avoided using them because the sound is so unavoidably iconic and tends to shift the flavor into some musical association.  While I think the Hammond organ is much less an issue, I've actually been avoiding using it for the same reason, that it hasn't served the pieces I've written them without imposing a signature on the song I wanted to avoid.  I've even been programming patches with the musical cliche in mind.  Trying to think of other textures in pad sounds so it isn't the usual syrupy string or breathy voice, but without getting carried away.

It takes a clever musician to work around musical cliches, using them in fresh, inventive ways.  One example is the song "Behind the Veil" on Jeff Beck's Guitar Shop album.  Tony Hymas played pan flute stab chords of all things, giving the track a decidedly reggae flavor.  This patch originally on the Roland D-50 became something of a synthesizer pariah as it had been heavily overused by that point.  Tony stumbled onto it and it was such a novel use of such a cliched patch that it stuck.  I created an electric 12 string patch on a keyboard that I'm fond of, and experimenting with in ways that don't suggest either Roger McGuinn (Byrds) or Mike Rutherford, and to be sure it's simple melodies but played in a more Trevor Rabin way.

The way to approach our music is to just let things flow so that every choice seems natural, not forced.  These days, I tend to create patches for the pieces I'm working on rather than programming for the fun of it like I used to, because I've created several hundred patches.  Like our friend DavidDever, I used to overwrite every patch on a new synth with my own, or nearly all.
Everyone should have a Prophet in the family

Sacred Synthesis

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2017, 09:19:49 AM »
My original question concerned using classic vintage instruments without processing them to sound like something else.  Can they be used in their most recognizable form to produce new music - in other words, as is?

Regardless, my own response to the idea is to prefer to use new instruments that can, if one wishes, be programmed to imitate such vintage instruments.  For example, the Prophet '08 can produce some fairly impressive mellotron string sounds.  That they will sound somewhat different from a mellotron is a good thing in that one can produce an improved mellotron sound.

Personally, I have no interest in imitation - neither in sounding like some musical hero nor in using his or her sounds.  This is one reason I have no use for the "Slop" parameter: I'm never trying to sound like I'm using a vintage instrument.  So, I never want to perfectly imitate a mellotron, an RMI, or a Hammond.  But from time to time, I find myself veering close to such sounds and the question comes to mind, "Am I so close to such-and-such a sound that its vintage familiarity will detract from the newness of the composition?"  My own answer is to permit only so much similarity, and the best way to achieve this is to use only new instruments.  So, although I do use some patches that sound similar to vintage instruments, I try to substantially improve on the old, rather than attempt a perfect imitation.  This seems to me to be the best solution. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 09:27:21 AM by Sacred Synthesis »

LoboLives

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2017, 02:37:07 PM »
My original question concerned using classic vintage instruments without processing them to sound like something else.  Can they be used in their most recognizable form to produce new music - in other words, as is?

Regardless, my own response to the idea is to prefer to use new instruments that can, if one wishes, be programmed to imitate such vintage instruments.  For example, the Prophet '08 can produce some fairly impressive mellotron string sounds.  That they will sound somewhat different from a mellotron is a good thing in that one can produce an improved mellotron sound.

Personally, I have no interest in imitation - neither in sounding like some musical hero nor in using his or her sounds.  This is one reason I have no use for the "Slop" parameter: I'm never trying to sound like I'm using a vintage instrument.  So, I never want to perfectly imitate a mellotron, an RMI, or a Hammond.  But from time to time, I find myself veering close to such sounds and the question comes to mind, "Am I so close to such-and-such a sound that its vintage familiarity will detract from the newness of the composition?"  My own answer is to permit only so much similarity, and the best way to achieve this is to use only new instruments.  So, although I do use some patches that sound similar to vintage instruments, I try to substantially improve on the old, rather than attempt a perfect imitation.  This seems to me to be the best solution.

But Mellotrons AND synths were made with the intention of emulating other instruments or ensembles but at a more accessible level. Naw, I think you are worrying too much about it. It all comes down to the mix and how you use them and how you play them. Use different chords, play in different turnings explore off-sounding note combinations. Guitars didn't get distortion right away. ;)

Re: Can New Music Be Made with Vintage Instruments?
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2017, 02:50:15 PM »
The M4000D does at least have polyphonic Aftertouch.  ;D