Please DSI... Give us a proper Hybrid sampler :)

[Razmo]

Yes... please give us a hybrid sampler, something that will compete in it's own way with the coming Waldorf Quantum Synthesizer.

There are things I do not like about Waldorf products... they usualy have crap FX onboard, and the Quantum will only have 8 voices, which I find to be too few... With the REV2 out at the price it has, I think it should be possible to make a hybrid sampler keyboard with 16 Curtis filters as well, something I'd really like to see.

What I'd like to see such a keyboard feature is:

8/16 voice options like the REV2 (Curtis filters/amplifiers would be fine, and probably more cost effective)

Minimum 2 sample oscillators per voice
ø
A/B Layer configuration, so you can use two voices for stereo applications

Built in FX like on the REV2

a "Character section" like on the P12, but with the added abillity to do different algorithmic stuff between the two oscillators (like FM, AM, and other crazy sample mangling stuff etc.)

Granular & wavetable sampling playback capability of the oscillators

SD card storage of everything (supporting Gigabytes of storage space)

Minimum 64MB of sample RAM per "project"

Big display for editing, and an intuitive user interface that inspire you to actually USE IT, instead of using software editors.

The usual comprehensive modulation matrix of course

.............

One thing I'd like to see in a sampler is this: Make it possible for an oscillator to continuously play another sample on each keypress, chosen randomly among a set list of samples, but never playing the same sample twice in a row... the reason for this feature is, that it would give some really nice possibilities with both percussion and instruments alike... one of the major problems with samplers is that they sound static because they always fire the same sample... with this technique, you could have for example, 10 different sampled versions of an analog kick drum, or an acoustic instrument, and have every key hit sound a little different... would make the sound much more organic and dynamic.

well... I guess that was just a little dream written down here... I hope I'll see such a device some day...

[LoboLives]

You know...I agree with most of that....except I feel it shouldn't have a huge screen on it. I don't know but I just dislike synths with large screens on them. Probably why I don't gravitate to workstations too much. I'd much rather have a basic screen like an Emulator II. Let your ears be the guide instead of a screen. Have everything on the front panel. Loop buttons, small 10 channel mixer on the front etc That's just me tho.

I would also say the sampler should be multitimbral and have an on board 10 track sequencer with the ability expand tracks via computer should you desire it.

The sampling also should be instantaneous and be like the Korg Microsampler where you can either use the sampling capabilities as standalone or with a computer.

Like the Synclavier, Emulators etc I think it should be a synth where you can use it with or without a computer and generally only rely on the computer to do fine editing and programming should you need to. But can easily be operational without one too.

I feel the device should avoid being just another workstation and approach it from the idea of a sampler with a P6 style layout and with a layout of a Synclavier or Emulator instead of a basic screen in the middle, few sliders and buttons here and there and the usual workstation look.

[Razmo]

You know...I agree with most of that....except I feel it shouldn't have a huge screen on it. I don't know but I just dislike synths with large screens on them. Probably why I don't gravitate to workstations too much. I'd much rather have a basic screen like an Emulator II. Let your ears be the guide instead of a screen. Have everything on the front panel. Loop buttons, small 10 channel mixer on the front etc That's just me tho.

I would also say the sampler should be multitimbral and have an on board 10 track sequencer with the ability expand tracks via computer should you desire it.

The sampling also should be instantaneous and be like the Korg Microsampler where you can either use the sampling capabilities as standalone or with a computer.

Like the Synclavier, Emulators etc I think it should be a synth where you can use it with or without a computer and generally only rely on the computer to do fine editing and programming should you need to. But can easily be operational without one too.

I feel the device should avoid being just another workstation and approach it from the idea of a sampler with a P6 style layout and with a layout of a Synclavier or Emulator instead of a basic screen in the middle, few sliders and buttons here and there and the usual workstation look.

I do not mind that the screen has the same size as the P12 for example... the point is that it should be a graphical display, because you would want to edit samples on it, and see the waveform display... the screen simply has to be big enough to be able to see what you're doing... having to rely on a computer for waveform editing misses the point, also because transfering samples will become tedious if you have to change the SD card between computer and sampler all the time... the most basic editing functions like cut, paste, truncate, loop editing (with zoom!), normalize etc. has to be there on the display in some way.

I don't care if it's touchscreen or anything... as long as there are controls to make the editing fast and intuitive... a good look on the new Elektron Digitakt display and editing is the way I want it to be.

I'm all with you on the knobs per function, but I do not want flexibility and deepness of the engine to go down, just because all and everything has to be on the front panel, so some menu-diving is necessary... the way the P12 is laid out with buttons for different segments is probably the best I've seen, when you still want some depth to the engine functions.

Also... minimum 5 octaves FATAR keybed!!!! very VERY important!

I'm with you also, when it comes to the approach... it should aim at being a hybrid first, but also offer something other samplers do not, otherwise you could as well get an old Akai, E-mu or Kurzweil... competing with either E-MU or Kurzweil would probably be impossible anyway, so the focus must be on the analog aspect, and the performance part as a standalone keyboard sampler.

I just feel that a hybrid sampler is one of the few directions DSI still needs to go... they only briefly touched the technology with the Tempest, but that's a totally different type of instrument, and was only a ROMpler with it's samples.

Dave has made a sampler before, so he could easily make an update, and even call it a "Prophet", as I believe his earlier sampler was called Prophet 2000!? or was it something similar?

[Paul Dither]

That would be an excellent project for a collaboration between DSI and Dave Rossum. They could name it the Dave^2.

[LoboLives]

That would be an excellent project for a collaboration between DSI and Dave Rossum. They could name it the Dave^2.

or Cameron Jones.

[DavidDever]

Hmm, dunno whether a keyboard-based sampler would make sense in 2017, unless it did something particularly unique from a real-time tonal sample manipulation (or digital synthesis, in general) perspective.

The computer workflow just seems sensible, once you build more complicated, layered instruments; as well, it takes the software element out of the mix, which is clearly a major project component of an embedded music hardware device.

Of course, there's the issue of the Pioneer DJ Toraiz SP-16, with which it might overlap a fair bit.

[LoboLives]

Hmm, dunno whether a keyboard-based sampler would make sense in 2017, unless it did something particularly unique from a real-time tonal sample manipulation (or digital synthesis, in general) perspective.

The computer workflow just seems sensible, once you build more complicated, layered instruments; as well, it takes the software element out of the mix, which is clearly a major project component of an embedded music hardware device.

Of course, there's the issue of the Pioneer DJ Toraiz SP-16, with which it might overlap a fair bit.

I mean monophonic instruments don't really make sense in 2017 either but there is a market. Honestly, a sampler with a hands on analog type interface would be so different that it may actually help instead of hinder it. Especially if it's a powerhouse. The idea of a workstation but a hands on approach gets me excited just contemplating about it.

[LoboLives]

You know...I agree with most of that....except I feel it shouldn't have a huge screen on it. I don't know but I just dislike synths with large screens on them. Probably why I don't gravitate to workstations too much. I'd much rather have a basic screen like an Emulator II. Let your ears be the guide instead of a screen. Have everything on the front panel. Loop buttons, small 10 channel mixer on the front etc That's just me tho.

I would also say the sampler should be multitimbral and have an on board 10 track sequencer with the ability expand tracks via computer should you desire it.

The sampling also should be instantaneous and be like the Korg Microsampler where you can either use the sampling capabilities as standalone or with a computer.

Like the Synclavier, Emulators etc I think it should be a synth where you can use it with or without a computer and generally only rely on the computer to do fine editing and programming should you need to. But can easily be operational without one too.

I feel the device should avoid being just another workstation and approach it from the idea of a sampler with a P6 style layout and with a layout of a Synclavier or Emulator instead of a basic screen in the middle, few sliders and buttons here and there and the usual workstation look.

I do not mind that the screen has the same size as the P12 for example... the point is that it should be a graphical display, because you would want to edit samples on it, and see the waveform display... the screen simply has to be big enough to be able to see what you're doing... having to rely on a computer for waveform editing misses the point, also because transfering samples will become tedious if you have to change the SD card between computer and sampler all the time... the most basic editing functions like cut, paste, truncate, loop editing (with zoom!), normalize etc. has to be there on the display in some way.

I don't care if it's touchscreen or anything... as long as there are controls to make the editing fast and intuitive... a good look on the new Elektron Digitakt display and editing is the way I want it to be.

I'm all with you on the knobs per function, but I do not want flexibility and deepness of the engine to go down, just because all and everything has to be on the front panel, so some menu-diving is necessary... the way the P12 is laid out with buttons for different segments is probably the best I've seen, when you still want some depth to the engine functions.

Also... minimum 5 octaves FATAR keybed!!!! very VERY important!

I'm with you also, when it comes to the approach... it should aim at being a hybrid first, but also offer something other samplers do not, otherwise you could as well get an old Akai, E-mu or Kurzweil... competing with either E-MU or Kurzweil would probably be impossible anyway, so the focus must be on the analog aspect, and the performance part as a standalone keyboard sampler.

I just feel that a hybrid sampler is one of the few directions DSI still needs to go... they only briefly touched the technology with the Tempest, but that's a totally different type of instrument, and was only a ROMpler with it's samples.

Dave has made a sampler before, so he could easily make an update, and even call it a "Prophet", as I believe his earlier sampler was called Prophet 2000!? or was it something similar?

Yup Prophet 2000 was Sequential's sampler.

Is E-Mu even still active? I tried to get one of their Longboards and couldn't find them anywhere.

But yeah I have the Korg Microsampler and I love it, I use it for most of my sample based stuff and it's super fast. I think a concept like that but with analog filters, more dials and larger 5 octave Fatar keybed might be in the direction this should go.

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-microsampler

[Razmo]

No... E-MU got snatched up by Creative Labs long ago, to get Dave Rossum's tech knowhow for themselves in their soundcard developments... since then the company more or less fell apart, with the Audio systems (1616m 1212m) being the last we saw of them.

Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.

It's true that the old hardware sampler market sort of died after software samplers came along, but I still believe that samplers have a right in the hardware market, they just have to be performance oriented in a way software samplers can never be, and one such is definitely the analog aspects of it... you would need to think out of the box for such a device to succeed... nonetheless it has happened a few times with success (Roland V-Synth for instance)... and the Quantum that is in the horizon is another such device.

Comparing it to the Toraiz on the other hand (in my opinion) is like comparing apples and oranges, they are two different types of machines that would be used in two completely different ways as performance oriented machines... they don't compare even the slightest in my opinion... the Toraiz is for groove making, while a keyboard sampler would be mainly for performing with instruments.

I'm just a bit tired of keyboard synthesizers at the moment offering only static waveforms that you have to sit and sounddesign over for hours before you get something you like... this is one of the cool things about a sample... you can swap them out quickly and get something new and inspiring really fast, seeing the rest of the soundpath as a "template" (VCF, VCA, Modulation etc.) ... just imagine having an arsenal of both short and long looped "textures" as your samples, dial in a "Pad Template" or "Lead Template", and then just scroll thru the samples on an oscillator... you get quick new sounds that are useful pretty quickly! ... with standard oscillators there is just the usual square, saw etc... maybe some wavetables, but to get any interesting movement you need to spend minutes to hours on modulating these before they get anything near interesting... this is not so with a sample instead of a "stiff" oscillator ... it will also give players with less sound design skills an easier day of making something useful... quickly... maybe if the sampler was even build in a way where presets were seen as "templates", and the sample oscillators was readily available for changing by scrolling thru a library on the SD card...

This is what I want... something fast, something intuitive, something that will give you instant gratification in a split second... something a performer might also like when on stage for example. The point is, that when most modulation is inherent in the sample itself, then templates get much more apparent in their useability... I do this all the time with both my V-Synth XT and E5000 Ultra, and it works! ... and it saves hours of time in sound design.

[Paul Dither]

Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.

He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.

Here's a video by Sonicstate:

[DavidDever]

I mean monophonic instruments don't really make sense in 2017 either but there is a market. Honestly, a sampler with a hands on analog type interface would be so different that it may actually help instead of hinder it. Especially if it's a powerhouse. The idea of a workstation but a hands on approach gets me excited just contemplating about it.

Does the market really need an E-mu Emax I or Ensoniq Mirage replacement in 2017?

Or is the intention simply a hybrid synthesizer with loads of digital front-end sound generation & processing, in the style of a Hartmann Neuron? That's not really a sampler, but a digital synth with some analogue processing....

[Razmo]

Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.

He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.

Here's a video by Sonicstate:

Cool... but it really does not compete with a fully fledged keyboard sampler... he is mainly into eurorack as I see it

[Paul Dither]

It's true that the old hardware sampler market sort of died after software samplers came along, but I still believe that samplers have a right in the hardware market, they just have to be performance oriented in a way software samplers can never be, and one such is definitely the analog aspects of it... you would need to think out of the box for such a device to succeed... nonetheless it has happened a few times with success (Roland V-Synth for instance)... and the Quantum that is in the horizon is another such device.

I also had a chat with Rolf from Waldorf at Superbooth. You will be able to use the granular engine for all standard multi-sampling purposes. It won't be as powerful as Kontakt in that regard, but should get all traditional hardware sampler needs covered. You'll be able to load as many samples as you like into the Quantum via SD card.

[Razmo]

I mean monophonic instruments don't really make sense in 2017 either but there is a market. Honestly, a sampler with a hands on analog type interface would be so different that it may actually help instead of hinder it. Especially if it's a powerhouse. The idea of a workstation but a hands on approach gets me excited just contemplating about it.

Does the market really need an E-mu Emax I or Ensoniq Mirage replacement in 2017?

Or is the intention simply a hybrid synthesizer with loads of digital front-end sound generation & processing, in the style of a Hartmann Neuron? That's not really a sampler, but a digital synth with some analogue processing....

No it's not a "sampler" that I want... it's a Keyboard Sampling SYNTHESIZER... there is a difference there... you need to be able to manipulate the samples, but all or most older samplers from E-MU or Kurzweil also had this ability, so you certainly would need to come up with something that works in a different way... more hands on and performer oriented... also, one of the major interest I've got is to get sampling synthesis combined with analog VCF/VCA/Distortion/FX technology... there are not many that combine this unless it's from the 80's full of quirks etc...

[DavidDever]

just imagine having an arsenal of both short and long looped "textures" as your samples, dial in a "Pad Template" or "Lead Template", and then just scroll thru the samples on an oscillator... you get quick new sounds that are useful pretty quickly! ... with standard oscillators there is just the usual square, saw etc... maybe some wavetables, but to get any interesting movement you need to spend minutes to hours on modulating these before they get anything near interesting... this is not so with a sample instead of a "stiff" oscillator ... it will also give players with less sound design skills an easier day of making something useful... quickly

Not sure why this would necessitate a hardware device, when a copy of Omnisphere would accomplish the same thing. It just reminds me of one of these:



At what point are you not simply embedding a proprietary PC engine into a synthesizer chassis, along with its concomitant issues of maintenance / upgradability / constrained processing power?

[Razmo]

It's true that the old hardware sampler market sort of died after software samplers came along, but I still believe that samplers have a right in the hardware market, they just have to be performance oriented in a way software samplers can never be, and one such is definitely the analog aspects of it... you would need to think out of the box for such a device to succeed... nonetheless it has happened a few times with success (Roland V-Synth for instance)... and the Quantum that is in the horizon is another such device.

I also had a chat with Rolf from Waldorf at Superbooth. You will be able to use the granular engine for all standard multi-sampling purposes. It won't be as powerful as Kontakt in that regard, but should get all traditional hardware sampler needs covered. You'll be able to load as many samples as you like into the Quantum via SD card.

Sure.. that was also the impression I got looking at the videos... and it's dead certain, that unless DSI makes something similar with more polyphony, then I will get a Quantum when it's out there can be no doubt about that... I'm just fearing it's sport the usual horrible built in FX that Waldorf are known for :/

[Paul Dither]

Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.

He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.

Here's a video by Sonicstate:

Cool... but it really does not compete with a fully fledged keyboard sampler... he is mainly into eurorack as I see it

Well, Eurorack and software is where most innovation takes place.

[Razmo]

just imagine having an arsenal of both short and long looped "textures" as your samples, dial in a "Pad Template" or "Lead Template", and then just scroll thru the samples on an oscillator... you get quick new sounds that are useful pretty quickly! ... with standard oscillators there is just the usual square, saw etc... maybe some wavetables, but to get any interesting movement you need to spend minutes to hours on modulating these before they get anything near interesting... this is not so with a sample instead of a "stiff" oscillator ... it will also give players with less sound design skills an easier day of making something useful... quickly

Not sure why this would necessitate a hardware device, when a copy of Omnisphere would accomplish the same thing. It just reminds me of one of these:

Because Omnisphere is not a selfcontained keybord, that you can bring with you on the stage, and it has no analog parts, it's a software synthesizer... if software was enough in a DAW box, then all the resurgence of analogs and hybrids we see from both DSI and others would not have been would they? ... why is it that people find it OK to see new analogs and hybrids, when they can still get it in software? ... why should it be any different just because it is a sampler!?

[Razmo]

Today Dave Rossum is not with Creative Labs anymore though, and he is creating eurorack stuff in his own name... currently I think he's about to release the Z-Plane filter as a Eurorack module... but I do not think he will be back in sampler business.

He's back in sampler business. I was just at Superbooth and had the pleasure of Dave demonstrating the Assimil8or to me amongst his various other modules. It's not fully done yet, (all main functions work, menu needs to be updated) but he's expecting to release it later this year. It has a really nasty, but musical bit crusher and can do phase modulation between samples, which also sounds really musical.

Here's a video by Sonicstate:

Cool... but it really does not compete with a fully fledged keyboard sampler... he is mainly into eurorack as I see it

Well, Eurorack and software is where most innovation takes place.

Sure... but that does not take away the need for a keyboard sampler as I see it... Why should sampling only be for Eurorack and software? ... then why not completely diss all analog keyboard synths like the P6, OB6, REV2 etc? ... there are more than enough software that does the same? ... also, eurorack usually is not very polyphony friendly... and it is directed at a different kind of user than a stage performer... at least that type of performer I'm thinking would want a keyboard sampler synthesizer

I know for sure that I would want one... and I should be baffled if others would not want such a thing as well

[DavidDever]

I'd rather see something that connects to a computer (or tablet) for deep-editing purposes (i.e., for building a voice model a la Kyma), but can be used standalone–I'd want such a device to function as a drum machine (pads) or synthesizer (keys) first and foremost, not simply as a controller a la Maschine. Keep the device interface knobby / simple / musical.

The risk, though, is that you end up with a fancy ROMpler with analogue filters, should someone decide that they don't care to go deeper. The presets would tend to stagnate over time, and you'd end up with a clichéd sound that would need to disappear from the public's consciousness in the manner of a Roland D-50.

Alternately, a SampleCell-style PCIe card (or USB-based outboard chassis) with analogue filters and (multiple) audio outputs would be pretty cool, maybe as a modular counterpart to the above instruments. This would allow you to add voices in an all-computer environment, or (as standalone box) to expand your existing keyboard setup as a slave device (a la Poly Evolver).

I still own a Muse Receptor, which I loved at the time for its self-contained approach (ex E-mu folks were involved in the design), but also its ability to go deeper (VST editing). It just never caught on / was ahead of its time / was constrained by hardware expandability / noisy fan + HDD, etc.