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Kick Drum Design advice

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2017, 05:41:38 PM »
Basically you have to adjust your sounds at Max all around parameter levels and from Mod Matrix give that controllable factor..Just ask yourself what does BeatFX doing when you messing with ribbons or soft knobs or whatever..It's like cranking things to max values ;)
When i design sounds i paint in the Mod Matrix and not in their default menus 8)
I've burned my brain with this but in the end was worth it!
Neat.  What did you do, offset the Beat FX with instrument's Slider Position in the Mod Matrix?  So that for the kicks when the Beat Filter Frequency goes up the kick's individual filter frequency goes down to keep it low, etc.

Ah really interesting.  So for instance, you'll generate a kick using the self-resonating LPF by setting the Filter Freq all the way up to 164, and then use the Mod Matrix to push the frequency back down?  I just tried doing that now and it works pretty nicely, avoids that "woo woo" effect with the Beat-Wide filter sweeping for sure.  What are you using for the Mod Matrix source to do the offsets, Note Number?

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2017, 08:02:17 PM »
i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.
Also, i just can't quite get the snap with the pitch envelope that i can get in DrumSpillage, it's a bit irritating really. Should be able to select an analog sine, aim for around 50Hz, get a nice snappy pitch envelope. Done. but it's never that simple with the tempest. don't get me wrong, i can make some nice kicks, but if i compare that simple process of selecting a sine and affecting it with a pitch envelope - to many other synths, the Tempest is simply ok, not like - WOW that's solid. It's like the pitch envelopes are (or something is) a bit fuzzy.

I know i can be using the resonant filter technique, and i do sometimes, but the oscillator / pitch envelope technique isn't as straight forward as it should be, i feel... using the digital sine wave in my analog drum synth... hmmmm ...Need to filter the triangle, find the sweet spots, mess around with the filter envelope too!!... it's a bit of mission, so i often just go back to DrumSpillage. I'm getting a Novation Circuit this week, so I might try loading some samples from the Tempest and DrumSpillage into it and free up some voices on the Tempest for synth sounds.

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2017, 12:57:37 AM »
i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.

Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.

One thing on using feedback for kicks, yes it sounds good but make sure you're panning hard left and routing the kick out the voice outs otherwise it will completely fark with your stereo image.
Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

RobH

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2017, 01:18:02 AM »
i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.

Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.

One thing on using feedback for kicks, yes it sounds good but make sure you're panning hard left and routing the kick out the voice outs otherwise it will completely fark with your stereo image.

feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2017, 01:32:24 AM »
Combinations of Note Numbers & Aux Envelopes..Complex stuff
What are you using for the Mod Matrix source to do the offsets, Note Number?

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2017, 01:34:13 AM »
Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?

RobH

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2017, 02:22:34 AM »
Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?

Oh ok, i thought it took the audio from the left channel then fed it back to both channels, my mistake.

I usually record in mono so i can compress thats probably why i miss this detail.

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2017, 06:50:10 AM »
Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?

Oh ok, i thought it took the audio from the left channel then fed it back to both channels, my mistake.

I usually record in mono so i can compress thats probably why i miss this detail.

You're right actually.  It takes the output of the left channel, and then routes the signal back into the LPF which is still mono.  The feedback is effecting the sound pre-panning, so the effect of the feedback is in both channels as it were.  The more you pan the sound to the right, the less signal is sent through the feedback loop though.

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2017, 07:28:01 AM »
i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.

Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.

well yes, there is the problem.
dropping the pitch of the oscillator, then modulating with a pitch envelope... it doesn't sound crash hot really.
not as tight as i'd prefer.
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 07:30:45 AM by onesnzeros »

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2017, 07:41:40 AM »
i wish Tempest had an analog sine so i didn't need to waste my filter on softening the triangle.

Just use the sine sample - a sine wave is a sine wave!! Unless you're trying fast pitch mod changes it sounds fine.

well yes, there is the problem.
dropping the pitch of the oscillator, then modulating with a pitch envelope... it doesn't sound crash hot really.
not as tight as i'd prefer.
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

Yeah that's the biggest problem with the digital oscillators, you can't modulate the pitch as highly, so you can't really make a kick using the digital sines the same as a resonating filter sine.  Not sure if that's a bug, or most likely just a limitation of the digital oscillators.

RobH

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2017, 09:12:27 AM »
Feedback goes on the Left channel...
feedback isn't distributed evenly over both channels? I know it only picks up from the left channel but, surely it effects both channels the same? or is there something im missing here?

Oh ok, i thought it took the audio from the left channel then fed it back to both channels, my mistake.

I usually record in mono so i can compress thats probably why i miss this detail.

You're right actually.  It takes the output of the left channel, and then routes the signal back into the LPF which is still mono.  The feedback is effecting the sound pre-panning, so the effect of the feedback is in both channels as it were.  The more you pan the sound to the right, the less signal is sent through the feedback loop though.

Thanks for the clarification I thought thats how it worked, I was going to look in the manual to see where it fed back but you saved me the trouble, thanks!

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2017, 02:41:16 PM »
Quote from: onesnzeros
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

I guess this is true in the analogue domain  - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!

But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible  to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.

Noise, Noodles and Doodles: http://bit.ly/mrjonesthebutcher

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2017, 03:53:31 PM »
Quote from: onesnzeros
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

I guess this is true in the analogue domain  - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!

But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible  to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2017, 04:09:03 PM »
Just a friendly reminder to keep things constructive and on-topic  :)
SEQUENTIAL

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2017, 05:00:01 PM »
Quote from: onesnzeros
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

I guess this is true in the analogue domain  - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!

But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible  to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.

From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2017, 10:02:09 PM »
Quote from: onesnzeros
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

I guess this is true in the analogue domain  - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!

But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible  to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.

I love the envelopes. Go figure...

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2017, 10:07:54 PM »
Quote from: onesnzeros
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

I guess this is true in the analogue domain  - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!

But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible  to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.

From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
ok i'll try that... you mean source = Osc pitch and Destination = pitch envelope? by a value of 30??
cheers

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2017, 06:45:54 AM »
Quote from: onesnzeros
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

I guess this is true in the analogue domain  - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!

But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible  to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.

From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
ok i'll try that... you mean source = Osc pitch and Destination = pitch envelope? by a value of 30??
cheers

Depends how you're making your kick (with the Oscillator or Filter), but in the Mod Matrix do like:

Pitch Env assigned to Pitch Env Decay (Amount +30)
Filter Env assigned to Filter Env Decay (Amount +30)

Then you'll most likely have to tweak the Decay setting in your envelopes as this also shifts the length of the decay.  If you're not feeling it at +30, try +40 and then +50, etc.  The higher you increase that amount, the steeper the envelope gets.

idm

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2017, 07:25:15 AM »
Quote from: onesnzeros
but i'm not sure i believe "a sine wave is a sine wave" though.
on synths, a "sine wave" is rarely a sine wave.

I guess this is true in the analogue domain  - I only own two other analogue synths and neither offer an analogue sine so I couldn't really comment!

But what I'm getting at is, if you're filtering the triangle wave to get as close as possible  to a sine wave then it's worth trying the digital sine for the body of the kick. You can still get an effective slow pitch drop on this whilst freeing up the filter and analogue oscs for the attack (or anything else). It shouldn't be discounted just because it's digital.
no i'm not discounting it because it's digital, i'm discounting it because it sounds not so good. but i'm coming to see more and more, it's because of the envelopes. The envelopes on the Tempest just kinda suck. Especially for a percussion synthesiser. I'm strongly thinking of selling the Tempest. Every time i use it now i get this persisting apparition of Dave Smith's smug head and it's making me more and more uncomfortable.

From what I've found, you need to bend the envelopes in the mod matrix to make them really snap for kick drums the right way. I've been A/Bing making kick drums on the Tempest with other hardware and software that I usually design kicks on, and I've found that to get the results I'm used to hearing I need to bend the Tempest's pitch/filter decay by an amount of +30.
ok i'll try that... you mean source = Osc pitch and Destination = pitch envelope? by a value of 30??
cheers

I'd also advice you to check out the tricks&tips topic. Bending the envelope sis one of the more basic tricks. I think it's even in the manual... env as source modulating its own decay.

Also using peak of the envelopes can make a lot of difference in getting booming, punchy kicks and what not.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:27:13 AM by idm »

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2017, 11:14:57 PM »
i couldn't see anything about this on the tips thread, but yes, the mod matrix is DEFINITELY essential is making what i would consider a tight slamming kick drum. or at least, to get the most out of the envelopes.