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Kick Drum Design advice

RobH

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Kick Drum Design advice
« on: April 16, 2017, 09:41:58 AM »
Hi guys, I am making kicks on my Tempest and can not quite achieve the sound that I desire but I know its pretty much through my fault as I am still a novice when it comes to sound design on the Tempest.

https://soundcloud.com/robert-tree-hardy/48-tempest-rec

I can nearly get to the sound that I want but the problem I am having (and the problem seems to happen everytime i design a kick) is that I can't seem to get as smooth a transition as I would like from the initial hit of the kick drum through to the body of the kick drum.

I'm using a hybrid method of using the filters only to start the kickdrum then adding in a little kick and noise digital sampes just a touch to give it some added ooomph, i just can't get the kicks to punch enough as I want without the kick kind of dividing into two parts, if i give some visual indication of what i mean possibly you might be able to help me.


http://imgur.com/OO5jnj6

http://imgur.com/XAvpfqt

The initial hit and the body of the kick don't blend together as much as I'd like and i always get the spike you can see at the start of the kick and it ends up sounding a little high and then a boom rather than just a smack in the face punch, I am running the kicks into a 1176 style compressor and can blend it a little better using compression/limiting but then i don't get the compression sound that is best.


I like the boom part of the kick I just want the start of it to be lower and more punch/slap i'm sure you know what i mean. I'm not trying to get some super retard kick, just a nice one where it blends better, any tips woud be appreciated.

edit - The kick has no processing only Tempest and WA76.

edit 2 - Also maybe instead of working out what I'm doing wrong, maybe i should just learn whats right, pls leave your tips on how to make some nice Thuddy/punchy kicks on the Tempest!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 10:25:21 AM by RobH »

RobH

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2017, 02:58:43 PM »
Update - I realise now that the compressor setting i was using was making the kicks that way derp. Problem solved!


https://soundcloud.com/robert-tree-hardy/51-tempest-rec-1

much better!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 03:02:45 PM by RobH »

LucidSFX

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 12:25:56 PM »
Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html
LucidSFX

-----------------------
current hybrid setup
-----------------------

2 x Technics 1200 MK7
Allen & Heath DB4
Allen Heath K2
Tempest
VirusTI2
RME UFX
Adam A7
SP2400 (on order)
Glenlivet 18yr scotch

RobH

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 12:46:55 PM »
Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html

Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.

I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to pack that thread to the  core!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 12:50:53 PM by RobH »

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 01:19:44 PM »
Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html

Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.

I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to share their experiences and ideas :(

So, the biggest trick/challenge in my opinion with getting good kicks is that when you start using multiple oscillators/samples for low kick drum frequencies they phase with each other in a way that usually results in the kick becoming flabby/tubby and whatever other adjectives people like to throw around for less punchy kick drums :)

Same thing goes for clicky kick transients.  If they're not exactly lined up quite right, it can make the transient seem muddy rather than punchier.  Because of this, some techniques I use are:

- Thinking of your kick as 2 primary elements: the transient and the body.  Try to design for each one and keep them relatively clean (unless you're going for a dirty kind of thing).  So I might use a sample for my transient, and then use an Aux Envelope to fade in my analog oscillator for the body because having them start at the same time might sound kind of flabby... it also can sound really good, so you have to use your ears first and foremost!

- Use your ears and tune your elements together.  Try to pitch your kick samples to be in tune with your analog oscillators, etc.

- Pick complimentary elements.  If Osc 3 is doing a low deep 808 sound, try using Osc 4 for a clicky mid-high frequency sound.  Think of your sound design from both a time domain perspective (transient/body) as well as frequency (low/mid/high).  Example: You use a Osc 1 as a Triangle for a low boomy transient layered with a short clicky high frequency sample on Osc 3.  You then quickly fade out the low boomy Osc 1 as Osc 4 fades in with low digital sine wave for a long body/sustain sound.

Also worth pointing out, the digital oscillator pre/post filter setting... if you make the samples post-filter (0/100) there's like a 3 dB increase in the volume of the sample.  I typically like to keep my samples post-filter because it can make them so much louder and gives me more flexibility with balancing them against my analog oscillators.  If you look at my first attached picture, on the left is a pre-filter sample and on the right is the post-filter version.  Notice how much bigger than transient is in the post-filter. 

Worth noting is that it also makes a big difference for the digital oscillators as well, as my second attached picture is using a digital Sine wave... on the left is the pre-filter and the right is post-filter and you can see the post-filter version is louder.  For making big sub-bass sounds this is really useful for bringing in some big low end with the digital sines.

RobH

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 02:41:38 PM »
Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html

Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.

I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to share their experiences and ideas :(

So, the biggest trick/challenge in my opinion with getting good kicks is that when you start using multiple oscillators/samples for low kick drum frequencies they phase with each other in a way that usually results in the kick becoming flabby/tubby and whatever other adjectives people like to throw around for less punchy kick drums :)

Same thing goes for clicky kick transients.  If they're not exactly lined up quite right, it can make the transient seem muddy rather than punchier.  Because of this, some techniques I use are:

- Thinking of your kick as 2 primary elements: the transient and the body.  Try to design for each one and keep them relatively clean (unless you're going for a dirty kind of thing).  So I might use a sample for my transient, and then use an Aux Envelope to fade in my analog oscillator for the body because having them start at the same time might sound kind of flabby... it also can sound really good, so you have to use your ears first and foremost!

- Use your ears and tune your elements together.  Try to pitch your kick samples to be in tune with your analog oscillators, etc.

- Pick complimentary elements.  If Osc 3 is doing a low deep 808 sound, try using Osc 4 for a clicky mid-high frequency sound.  Think of your sound design from both a time domain perspective (transient/body) as well as frequency (low/mid/high).  Example: You use a Osc 1 as a Triangle for a low boomy transient layered with a short clicky high frequency sample on Osc 3.  You then quickly fade out the low boomy Osc 1 as Osc 4 fades in with low digital sine wave for a long body/sustain sound.

Also worth pointing out, the digital oscillator pre/post filter setting... if you make the samples post-filter (0/100) there's like a 3 dB increase in the volume of the sample.  I typically like to keep my samples post-filter because it can make them so much louder and gives me more flexibility with balancing them against my analog oscillators.  If you look at my first attached picture, on the left is a pre-filter sample and on the right is the post-filter version.  Notice how much bigger than transient is in the post-filter. 

Worth noting is that it also makes a big difference for the digital oscillators as well, as my second attached picture is using a digital Sine wave... on the left is the pre-filter and the right is post-filter and you can see the post-filter version is louder.  For making big sub-bass sounds this is really useful for bringing in some big low end with the digital sines.

Thankyou! I have kind of being trying to attempt this but haven't figured out the best way to approach the pre/post filters and choice of samples this small guide is awesome really thanks mate!!!

also, adamX, just curious are you THE adamX?

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 02:47:52 PM »
Glad you figured it out. Have you looked at:
http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,34.0.html

Yes a good few times, i've learnt a hell of a lot from that thread but no one seems to ever engage in it, I was having a brain freeze moment trying to make that kick yesterday, I thought i had tried different compression settings when it turns out i hadn't it was sending me loopy lol.

I would like the sound design thread moving down here so people see it more and don't think its a "no go area" because its stickied, i dont know why people dont chat more in their i've tried a few times to get a conversation started about sound design in the tempest but no one seems to want to share their experiences and ideas :(

So, the biggest trick/challenge in my opinion with getting good kicks is that when you start using multiple oscillators/samples for low kick drum frequencies they phase with each other in a way that usually results in the kick becoming flabby/tubby and whatever other adjectives people like to throw around for less punchy kick drums :)

Same thing goes for clicky kick transients.  If they're not exactly lined up quite right, it can make the transient seem muddy rather than punchier.  Because of this, some techniques I use are:

- Thinking of your kick as 2 primary elements: the transient and the body.  Try to design for each one and keep them relatively clean (unless you're going for a dirty kind of thing).  So I might use a sample for my transient, and then use an Aux Envelope to fade in my analog oscillator for the body because having them start at the same time might sound kind of flabby... it also can sound really good, so you have to use your ears first and foremost!

- Use your ears and tune your elements together.  Try to pitch your kick samples to be in tune with your analog oscillators, etc.

- Pick complimentary elements.  If Osc 3 is doing a low deep 808 sound, try using Osc 4 for a clicky mid-high frequency sound.  Think of your sound design from both a time domain perspective (transient/body) as well as frequency (low/mid/high).  Example: You use a Osc 1 as a Triangle for a low boomy transient layered with a short clicky high frequency sample on Osc 3.  You then quickly fade out the low boomy Osc 1 as Osc 4 fades in with low digital sine wave for a long body/sustain sound.

Also worth pointing out, the digital oscillator pre/post filter setting... if you make the samples post-filter (0/100) there's like a 3 dB increase in the volume of the sample.  I typically like to keep my samples post-filter because it can make them so much louder and gives me more flexibility with balancing them against my analog oscillators.  If you look at my first attached picture, on the left is a pre-filter sample and on the right is the post-filter version.  Notice how much bigger than transient is in the post-filter. 

Worth noting is that it also makes a big difference for the digital oscillators as well, as my second attached picture is using a digital Sine wave... on the left is the pre-filter and the right is post-filter and you can see the post-filter version is louder.  For making big sub-bass sounds this is really useful for bringing in some big low end with the digital sines.

Thankyou! I have kind of being trying to attempt this but haven't figured out the best way to approach the pre/post filters and choice of samples this small guide is awesome really thanks mate!!!

also, adamX, just curious are you THE adamX?

Nope! Just some other Adam. Had to google his name to know who that was actually :P

LucidSFX

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 04:19:35 PM »
Well, once my Tempest and my belongings arrive in Victoria(BC), I'll definately jump in on trying/giving some ideas. I agree about the lack of patch idea exchange. As a group we have been more focused on the dev side of the latest firmware.

I'll have to destroy AdamX's example with by club banging new BD that will redefine techno, life, and the universe. *grin* Or maybe not...
LucidSFX

-----------------------
current hybrid setup
-----------------------

2 x Technics 1200 MK7
Allen & Heath DB4
Allen Heath K2
Tempest
VirusTI2
RME UFX
Adam A7
SP2400 (on order)
Glenlivet 18yr scotch

RobH

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  • 464
Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 06:27:53 PM »
club banging new BD that will redefine techno, life, and the universe. *grin*
I'll get my dancing pants on lol!!!

I'm going to try and use the "FLAT***" Sample again to make something that sounds a little more in the realistic but not realistic kick department!

I'm in love with a kickdrum from Rub'N'Tug producer Eric Dunbars kick on his todd terje remix. Those low slung slappy kicks are my dream, I really need to learn how to get closer to those kind of kicks, I'm guessing its a mixture of pitching down a sample and some compression/verb that cost more than my entire life it worth, haha, but who knows one day i might master the art!!!

https://soundcloud.com/toddterje/ols011b2

The kick and bass in that remix are another level.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 06:49:42 PM by RobH »

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 12:27:55 AM »
I can hear some distortion going on in this kick ^

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2017, 06:28:05 AM »
club banging new BD that will redefine techno, life, and the universe. *grin*
I'll get my dancing pants on lol!!!

I'm going to try and use the "FLAT***" Sample again to make something that sounds a little more in the realistic but not realistic kick department!

I'm in love with a kickdrum from Rub'N'Tug producer Eric Dunbars kick on his todd terje remix. Those low slung slappy kicks are my dream, I really need to learn how to get closer to those kind of kicks, I'm guessing its a mixture of pitching down a sample and some compression/verb that cost more than my entire life it worth, haha, but who knows one day i might master the art!!!

https://soundcloud.com/toddterje/ols011b2

The kick and bass in that remix are another level.

Specifically for that kick there, I think it's primarily a pitched down sample.

I was able to get something similar sounding by using the OSC 3 set to "23. Nice" and pitching it -3.00 semitones with Volume at 127.  Then setting the Pre/Post filter to 30/70 I put my LPF in 4-Pole mode with a LPF Freq of 39 and a resonance of 70.  By doing this the filter resonance isn't high enough to self-resonate, but it's used to emphasize the low end frequencies already existing in the OSC 3 kick sample.

There's definitely a lot of processing (and of course mastering) done to that remix track, so some EQ/Compression afterwards will probably help out a lot.  Some saturation would be helpful too as Yorgos mentioned.  I wouldn't use the on-board Tempest compressor for this kind of sound personally... the Tempest compressor kind of acts like a transient-enhancer on steroids from what I've seen so far which isn't exactly what you want here probably.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 06:35:34 AM by AdamXAudio »

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 07:29:57 AM »
^ Maybe he could experiment with Tempest's feedback for some saturation?

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 07:57:15 AM »
^ Maybe he could experiment with Tempest's feedback for some saturation?

Totally!  I've personally been shying away from the feedback knob a lot because it can easily result in that pitch ascending distorted chirp that I think every Tempest user is familiar with by now :)  A little bit seem to go a long way with that control.  I need to spend more time and try to figure out some best practices with it... I get more predictable results when it's used on a sustained synth sound rather than a kick/snare, which makes sense given what the control is doing.

bozo

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2017, 09:11:31 AM »
Some very good and interesting kicks can be found. Takes quite some effort tho,

Unfortunately many make some of the beat wide sound parameters un-useable, the horrible wooo wooo as you open the filter and the kick sound is gone........

Now dont say "but the samples" because, imo, just not up to scratch.


idm

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2017, 12:33:53 PM »
I mute the kick in mute mode when I use those specific beat fx that make the kick go wooowooo ;). But mute mode is the mode I use the most when using beat wide fx so that helps I guess.

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2017, 01:39:04 PM »
Nah!I've nailed this one on my latest 808 kit...You can crank up beatFX to the extremes and the results are so natural and controllable!That's how things should behave in the first place..Though it wasn't easy..I had to spent countless hours in the Mod Matrix to find the sweet spots..
Unfortunately many make some of the beat wide sound parameters un-useable, the horrible wooo wooo as you open the filter and the kick sound is gone.......

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2017, 02:26:37 PM »
Nah!I've nailed this one on my latest 808 kit...You can crank up beatFX to the extremes and the results are so natural and controllable!That's how things should behave in the first place..Though it wasn't easy..I had to spent countless hours in the Mod Matrix to find the sweet spots..
Unfortunately many make some of the beat wide sound parameters un-useable, the horrible wooo wooo as you open the filter and the kick sound is gone.......

Neat.  What did you do, offset the Beat FX with instrument's Slider Position in the Mod Matrix?  So that for the kicks when the Beat Filter Frequency goes up the kick's individual filter frequency goes down to keep it low, etc.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 02:29:00 PM by AdamXAudio »

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2017, 02:38:05 PM »
I know one thing for sure.  Yorgos's kicks are my favorite.

Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2017, 02:50:22 PM »
Basically you have to adjust your sounds at Max all around parameter levels and from Mod Matrix give that controllable factor..Just ask yourself what does BeatFX doing when you messing with ribbons or soft knobs or whatever..It's like cranking things to max values ;)
When i design sounds i paint in the Mod Matrix and not in their default menus 8)
I've burned my brain with this but in the end was worth it!
Neat.  What did you do, offset the Beat FX with instrument's Slider Position in the Mod Matrix?  So that for the kicks when the Beat Filter Frequency goes up the kick's individual filter frequency goes down to keep it low, etc.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 02:53:23 PM by Yorgos Arabatzis »

RobH

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Re: Kick Drum Design advice
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2017, 05:15:14 PM »
Thanks guys!

I have also found using a touch of feedback a setting of 15 for example can give a kick a reallly nice thickness!

I'm going to try the your suggested settings now Adam, I think the kick might possibly be from a Dmx or limb drum and pitched down so I'm going to try those samples too I'll let you know how I get on!