Next New Sequential Instrument

[Sacred Synthesis]

My opinion isn't that extreme.  I think the Prophet 12 and Pro 2 are totally distinct instruments from the Evolvers, and that has been my point over and over again. [...]
I don't expect folks to understand it.

I am sorry to report that I agree completely with you: The Evolver have something special in its voice. If you ask me its partly the oscillator types and partly its lovely digital dirt.

    And I agree with you about the so-called "digital dirt."  I didn't like it for a long time, but it's grown on me.  It's always sticking its ice-cold nose into my music when I'm not wanting it.  But then, in listening back afterwards, it often seems mysteriously beautiful, like snow or mist.

Regarding our "differences" between an emphasis on the technical or the musical, both are obviously necessary.  You can't have one without the other.  So we really don't have a disagreement.

[Paul Dither]

My opinion isn't that extreme.  I think the Prophet 12 and Pro 2 are totally distinct instruments from the Evolvers, and that has been my point over and over again.  It's true, even regarding the Prophet '08.  It was extracted - that's a fact - but it still is and sounds significantly different.  But the guy's opinion was that, from his experience, he would prefer an eight-voice Poly Evolver Keyboard to a Prophet 12.  He didn't carry on about it, so he was no fanatic.  I'm only repeating the opinion because I've read it many times.  And now, having had the instruments side-by-side for a full month, I appreciate it.  In fact, the reason I still want a Prophet 12 is that it's so dissimilar to a Poly Evolver Keyboard.  I could conceive of having the two instruments at the same time, but I don't need that much digital potential all at once.

Paul, what I need to do is import you to my music room and lock you in it for one full month of uninterrupted eight-voice Poly Evolver joy.  You can't eat, drink, wash, or communicate with anyone until the month is up, but I will leave you with a bucket.  You might end up appreciating our view a little more than you would expect.

While I would really like to play an 8-voice Evolver one day, I should point out that I'm fully aware of the sonic differences. After all, I used to own a MEK and Desktop Evolver combo, which did sound unique. In fact, if the Pro 2 had never been released, I would have saved for a PER to polychain it to my MEK. But PERs were already hard to come by and also very expensive.

I accept the fact that there is no synth that covers it all (which is a good thing in my book) and overall the Pro 2 was the best choice for me in terms of sound, price, and features. That doesn't mean, though, that I think it does fully replace the Evolver or that it is objectively the better synth. Both have their advantages and strengths. The stereo signal path, front end hybrid structure, and VS waveshapes on the Evolver, and the filters, paraphonic mode, sequencer, and overall interface design improvements on the Pro 2 to name a few. The reason I ultimately made a choice in favor of the Pro 2 has to do with the fact that I like limitations and don't want to be in a position where I end up with too many synths I had to choose.

@Sacred Synthesis and dslsynth:
If you don't mind, I will separate these lasts posts from this thread, since we've gotten a little off track. I suggest to move them over to the next DSI synth discussion, which seems to resonate more with the points that were covered.

[Paul Dither]

Note: I inserted parts of a discussion that arose from the thread "Additional Feature Request List" in the Pro 2 forum. They seemed to fit better in here, as the past and future (the future's past, the past's future?) of the Evolver has also been discussed in this thread.

[LoboLives]

I think synthesizers are sort of in a hampster wheel now. I think musicians are longing for “the next thing” to add sonically to their pallet and it seems we are either getting bombarded with monosynths or mini keys or companies are sort of stagnating creatively. The REV2 as great as it is, is a step backwards. It’s relying on an old synth model and updating it..nothing wrong with that I suppose but I’d much rather see a new Prophet model instead of an update of an old one. Regardless though I understand from a business aspect why they did it and it does sound good at the end of the day.

Another issue though is lack of support for older instruments. If DSI want to consider the P12, P6 and OB6 finished products they should come on this forum and say so as opposed to people asking for features for years. No sequencer midi out from the P6 and OB6? Lack of a pratical transposing Of The sequence (without having to hold down Rec) not only have these requests been put on the backburner but their new Rev2 synth still has these things missing!

We will have to see what Korg is going to do with their new synth but I don’t have high hopes. A monotimbral or bi timbral minilogue with full-size keys may sound cool on paper but it still is not offering anything new.

Moog is non existent in the equation and haven’t done anything majorly creative in a while and likely have nothing planned.

I just think a company like DSI should be ahead of the curve of everyone else and keep offering the next step up...be it different forms of synthesis, hybrids, samplers, or just start to seriously consider at least four part multitimbrality.

Another analog mono? Another mono or bi timbral analog poly...it’s redundancy.

I saw a meme once where a gentleman was showing a girl the Schmidt synthesizer and the speech bubble wrote “You take two oscillators and detune them.” Her response: “Then what?”

I think that’s what a lot of people, including myself are at right now. “Then what?”

[Shaw]

Moog is non existent in the equation and haven’t done anything majorly creative in a while and likely have nothing planned.

I certainly hope Moog doesn't go the way of the Dodo... but I see them now where Gibson has been:  holding on to a past that has passed. 

[LoboLives]

Moog is non existent in the equation and haven’t done anything majorly creative in a while and likely have nothing planned.

I certainly hope Moog doesn't go the way of the Dodo... but I see them now where Gibson has been:  holding on to a past that has passed.

I 100% agree. Even when Bob Moog was running things they were  constantly coming out with things be it a Moog Vocoder or Polymoog or whatever now in 2017 they are charging $4000-6000 on a monosynth with no memory, sequencer or...well..anything. I’d happily pay $3000-$4000 for a four voice Polyphonic Moog but no way am I going to spend that type of cash on “but it’s vintage” type mentality.

I think a lot of it has to do with whenever they do something different like the Tarus Foot Pedals or Moog Guitar they are commercial failures so they are worried about stepping outside their comfort zone...but you can still experiment within that comfort zone...that’s what they seem to be forgetting.

[Paul Dither]

I think synthesizers are sort of in a hampster wheel now. I think musicians are longing for “the next thing” to add sonically to their pallet and it seems we are either getting bombarded with monosynths or mini keys or companies are sort of stagnating creatively.

You can't really reinvent the wheel. Synths and different forms of synthesis - mostly the substractive type - are well established by now. But basically there are lots of different things around already and have been for a couple of years, from West Coast to East Coast and everything in between, granular synthesis, sample-based synthesis, FM, AM, additive synthesis, and so on and so forth. Add to that the various and increasing controllers and philosophies. I think the future of electronic music will not be so much about new types of synthesis, but rather the development of new types of interfaces until the ultimate goal is reached in the shape and form of a direct-to-brain interface.

I just think a company like DSI should be ahead of the curve of everyone else and keep offering the next step up...be it different forms of synthesis, hybrids, samplers, or just start to seriously consider at least four part multitimbrality.

I think multitimbrality has become a rather demographic topic. Like someone posted on Muff Wiggler recently:

it isn't technically hard to do. I think it doesn't happen because

- it wasn't on most vintage analogs
- it requires additional physical interface ($) or menu diving ("eew, menus")
- the industry is under the (mistaken) impression that it isn't necessary because computers have unlimited audio tracks
- younger users are unfamiliar with the concept and therefore aren't asking for it

It has come to my attention as well that with the exception of musicians who where around in the 1980s or 1990s, no one really cares that much about multitimbrality anymore. MIDI even became a four-letter word among lots of young musicians. I've witnessed it often enough. MIDI-wise, almost all standard synths from the 1990s were way more advanced than today's synths. The market has shifted. I'm not saying that this is good or bad. Just an observation.

[Paul Dither]

Moog is non existent in the equation and haven’t done anything majorly creative in a while and likely have nothing planned.

I certainly hope Moog doesn't go the way of the Dodo... but I see them now where Gibson has been:  holding on to a past that has passed.

I 100% agree. Even when Bob Moog was running things they were  constantly coming out with things be it a Moog Vocoder or Polymoog or whatever now in 2017 they are charging $4000-6000 on a monosynth with no memory, sequencer or...well..anything. I’d happily pay $3000-$4000 for a four voice Polyphonic Moog but no way am I going to spend that type of cash on “but it’s vintage” type mentality.

I think a lot of it has to do with whenever they do something different like the Tarus Foot Pedals or Moog Guitar they are commercial failures so they are worried about stepping outside their comfort zone...but you can still experiment within that comfort zone...that’s what they seem to be forgetting.

Don't forget, though, that Moog's palette is still rather wide. You also need to count in their apps, particularly the Animoog and the Model 15, which make use of state-of-the-art technology. And that they revised the Sub 37 to release the Subsequent 37 was due to customer feedback, that's all. They do super expensive modulars, mid-priced mono synths that don't need to hide in terms of features, did the Minimoog reissue people begged for for decades, have a whole range of effect pedals both for the synth and guitar market, sneaked into the Eurorack format, and do the aforementioned apps. That's quite a product range for such a relatively small company.

[LoboLives]

I think synthesizers are sort of in a hampster wheel now. I think musicians are longing for “the next thing” to add sonically to their pallet and it seems we are either getting bombarded with monosynths or mini keys or companies are sort of stagnating creatively.

You can't really reinvent the wheel. Synths and different forms of synthesis - mostly the substractive type - are well established by now. But basically there are lots of different things around already and have been for a couple of years, from West Coast to East Coast and everything in between, granular synthesis, sample-based synthesis, FM, AM, additive synthesis, and so on and so forth. Add to that the various and increasing controllers and philosophies. I think the future of electronic music will not be so much about new types of synthesis, but rather the development of new types of interfaces until the ultimate goal is reached in the shape and form of a direct-to-brain interface.

I just think a company like DSI should be ahead of the curve of everyone else and keep offering the next step up...be it different forms of synthesis, hybrids, samplers, or just start to seriously consider at least four part multitimbrality.

I think multitimbrality has become a rather demographic topic. Like someone posted on Muff Wiggler recently:

it isn't technically hard to do. I think it doesn't happen because

- it wasn't on most vintage analogs
- it requires additional physical interface ($) or menu diving ("eew, menus")
- the industry is under the (mistaken) impression that it isn't necessary because computers have unlimited audio tracks
- younger users are unfamiliar with the concept and therefore aren't asking for it

It has come to my attention as well that with the exception of musicians who where around in the 1980s or 1990s, no one really cares that much about multitimbrality anymore. MIDI even became a four-letter word among lots of young musicians. I've witnessed it often enough. MIDI-wise, almost all standard synths from the 1990s were way more advanced than today's synths. The market has shifted. I'm not saying that this is good or bad. Just an observation.

When I say different forms of synthesis I mean synthesis other than analog like Vector Synthesis. Not saying you have to reinvent the wheel but just offer something different.

Surely Four Part Multitimbrality isn’t so much to ask for. We aren’t asking for 20 channels like a workstation lol. Just something more than just a single split point. Sure you can do all that with midi and multiple synths or multitracking but that doesn’t mean it’s better persay.

[Paul Dither]

When I say different forms of synthesis I mean synthesis other than analog like Vector Synthesis. Not saying you have to reinvent the wheel but just offer something different.

I understand that. But there's loads of stuff out there. Not always in the shape and form of a keyboard synth, but it exists, especially in software and Eurorack.

Surely Four Part Multitimbrality isn’t so much to ask for. We aren’t asking for 20 channels like a workstation lol. Just something more than just a single split point. Sure you can do all that with midi and multiple synths or multitracking but that doesn’t mean it’s better persay.

Even non-workstations came with standard 16 part multitimbrality in the 1990s, though. These days, mostly the devices in the beatbox format (Tempest, Analog Four, etc) cater to multitimbral needs.

[LoboLives]

Moog is non existent in the equation and haven’t done anything majorly creative in a while and likely have nothing planned.

I certainly hope Moog doesn't go the way of the Dodo... but I see them now where Gibson has been:  holding on to a past that has passed.

I 100% agree. Even when Bob Moog was running things they were  constantly coming out with things be it a Moog Vocoder or Polymoog or whatever now in 2017 they are charging $4000-6000 on a monosynth with no memory, sequencer or...well..anything. I’d happily pay $3000-$4000 for a four voice Polyphonic Moog but no way am I going to spend that type of cash on “but it’s vintage” type mentality.

I think a lot of it has to do with whenever they do something different like the Tarus Foot Pedals or Moog Guitar they are commercial failures so they are worried about stepping outside their comfort zone...but you can still experiment within that comfort zone...that’s what they seem to be forgetting.

Don't forget, though, that Moog's palette is still rather wide. You also need to count in their apps, particularly the Animoog and the Model 15, which make use of state-of-the-art technology. And that they revised the Sub 37 to release the Subsequent 37 was due to customer feedback, that's all. They do super expensive modulars, mid-priced mono synths that don't need to hide in terms of features, did the Minimoog reissue people begged for for decades, have a whole range of effect pedals both for the synth and guitar market, sneaked into the Eurorack format, and do the aforementioned apps. That's quite a product range for such a relatively small company.

But essentially it’s the same idea behind each of those things: A monophonic analog synth. Just in different sizes and shapes but they all produce a similar outcome.

For the amount of research and development and manufacturing they put into simply adding CV capabilities to an already existing synth they could have come out with a whole new product which included those requested features. Which is exactly what shouldn’t have happened with the REV2 a lot of the requests about the sequencer on the P6 and OB6 weren’t updated or addressed in a new product so now now only have those requests not been addressed on the older instruments but now they have to be addressed with the new one and from my understanding still havent.

[LoboLives]

When I say different forms of synthesis I mean synthesis other than analog like Vector Synthesis. Not saying you have to reinvent the wheel but just offer something different.

I understand that. But there's loads of stuff out there. Not always in the shape and form of a keyboard synth, but it exists, especially in software and Eurorack.

Surely Four Part Multitimbrality isn’t so much to ask for. We aren’t asking for 20 channels like a workstation lol. Just something more than just a single split point. Sure you can do all that with midi and multiple synths or multitracking but that doesn’t mean it’s better persay.

Even non-workstations came with standard 16 part multitimbrality in the 1990s, though. These days, mostly the devices in the beatbox format (Tempest, Analog Four, etc) cater to multitimbral needs.

Sure those things exist in software and modular stuff but why not keyboards? Surely if Behringer And Korg And others can do analog for less than $1000 Yamaha could have come out with a new DX that wasn’t the size of a toy. In fact if Yamaha can do an authentic FM engine in a reface size instrument there I should no reason they can’t come out with one in a 61 key full sized keyboard.

These are obviously questions we can’t answer but it is still a good question.

[Paul Dither]

But essentially it’s the same idea behind each of those things: A monophonic analog synth. Just in different sizes and shapes but they all produce a similar outcome.

The Animoog is pretty much its own thing and - just like the Model 15 app - it can also be played polyphonically. The rest is just what they do and as long as there's a demand for it, they will continue to do so. After all, it's a business and they also like the concept of a single voice synth. Maybe they come out with something different again in the app sphere for reasons of cost and flexibility. One thing they don't really need to do is develop an analog poly synth. Because what would you get realistically? Something like the Prophet-6 with a Moog filter for about the same price or $1000 more. In terms of technology and already available options, I could think of more exciting things to be honest.

For the amount of research and development and manufacturing they put into simply adding CV capabilities to an already existing synth they could have come out with a whole new product which included those requested features.

They redesigned the signal path of the Sub 37. Everything was based on customer demand and suggestions. Again: It's a business and this is also how they showed their appreciation towards the user base. They are also a small company with in-house production. Things take a bit longer under these circumstances. And who knows what they've been working on behind the scenes?

[Paul Dither]

Sure those things exist in software and modular stuff but why not keyboards?

Because it's less risky to do more esoteric or experimental stuff in those areas. It's niche products for a niche market. You can't expect a company releasing a >$3,000 synth that blows big time in the end because its concept is too unfamiliar to most musicians. Synths like the DX7 or the D-50 were a success because they contained outstanding presets (for their time), not really because most musicians embraced a new way of programming as it turned out. It was also the birth of the preset library market for that very reason. Sure, there are also always a couple of nerds who dig deeper than that, but I doubt that they were the masses that paid Yamaha's and Roland's bills.

Surely if Behringer And Korg And others can do analog for less than $1000 Yamaha could have come out with a new DX that wasn’t the size of a toy. In fact if Yamaha can do an authentic FM engine in a reface size instrument there I should no reason they can’t come out with one in a 61 key full sized keyboard.

It's called the Montage, which was surely marketed in the wrong way when it comes to what you're asking for, but it definitely contains a fully-fledged FM engine. The Korg Kronos does too.

[LoboLives]

Actually I was thinking in terms of Moog is their own version of the Oberheim Four Voice but with four Slim Phatty’s or Sub 37 engines that can operate individually from each other and each have presets. Sure you can do that with midi and polychaining but it at least would offer something different than the DSI instruments and be something fresh from Moog.

In terms of the Yamaha Montage I am talking about a dedicated FM synth not a synth that has samples, fm and other things going on. Just two DX reface engines under one hood. Ironically I think that would actually sell better than the reface and Montage.

[timbo74]

Still advocating for a sampling keyboard here! (Prophet 2000/ V2018 ect?)

Sampling front end and VCF's and VCA's.

Plenty of front panel knobs for the main performance control.

8 voice/4 part multi is ok here but the more specs the better of course. (Price notwithstanding!)

Sequencer of some descript on board.

Keeping a keen eye for the future!

[DavidDever]

Still advocating for a sampling keyboard here! (Prophet 2000/ V2018 ect?)

Sampling front end and VCF's and VCA's.

Plenty of front panel knobs for the main performance control.

8 voice/4 part multi is ok here but the more specs the better of course. (Price notwithstanding!)

Sequencer of some descript on board.

Keeping a keen eye for the future!

12/16 mono or 6/8 stereo voices would be a good place to start.

The Prophet 2000 hard-panned its voices to either side, which worked well if you could dedicate a pair of channels with adjustable stereo width, but reduced voice count to four when running stereo samples.

[LoboLives]

I'd say for the DSI Sampler

Name: Sequential Mimic
10 Voice Polyphony
10 Part Multitimbrality
10 Track Sequencer
61 keys w/ aftertouch and velocity.
Samples can be uploaded via USB.
Prophet 6 style VCFs and VCAs.
Samples can be set as one shot, gated, and looped.
On board effects as well.

[timbo74]

Interesting information DavidDever and LoboLives!

Would it muddy the waters for the "possible" DSI sampler to have an analogue carrier input jack and in the onboard effects section to have a vocoder effector so one of the samples can be used as the modulator for a vocoder effect?

Possible option for any analogue inputs could be to have 2 mic/line inputs which could be used similar to the Korg MicroKorg/R3 ?

The inputs could be switched to other duties if not using that particular effect.

Just a thought!

Tim

[Razmo]

If I should ever want a multi timbral powerhouse from Dave, I'd opt for something like this:

32 voices (all should be playable in any configuration, from 32 individual to one 32 voice polyphonic preset)

The voice architecture should be a "One Voice to Rule them All!" ... the architecture taken from the Evolver, where you have two analog oscillators (taken from the REV2 to keep cost down), and two digital (taken from the P12). Add the option to include sample oscillators on the two digital oscillators... Keep it mono instead of the Evolvers stereo configuration to further keep cost down (and polyphony up!).

Now D/A convert the digital oscillators, and mix them with the analog ones, and throw them thru a multimode VCF (HP/LP/BP etc.) and into a VCA...

In parallel, put the usual FX section of the REV2/P6/OB6 (this is on all voices of course, not per voice) ... this may need more than one FX engine... probably more like 4 to 8, and all working with sends from all the voices.

Summa Summarum, I'd like to see a "super voice" containing all that Dave has made in analog and digital, with added sampling functionality... the "One Voice to Rule Them All!" ... then this "voice" could go into different instruments... maybe even a multi timbral one that you can put as many "voice boards" into that you want... say, 32 slots, and you can have anything from one to 32 "super voice cards" in it, and use them one by itself, or in groups for polyphony. This would give people a chance at buying them without breaking their wallet.

He could name it "Sawron!" ... or something...