The Official Sequential/DSI Forum

Next New DSI Instrument

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #440 on: November 05, 2017, 05:30:07 PM »
I wonder if we will see an analog vocoder or analog guitar synth machine. It may not even be keyboard related...I doubt thatíll be the case but it still would be interesting to see.

Nah, too niche. ARP already commited suicide with the Avatar - not that DSI is in a similar position as the sinking ship was back then, but still. I also thought guitar sales were declining according to Fender, Gibson, and Guitar Center - not sure whether this is just about bitter old men whining because they can't maximize profit anymore with their outdated business models while they pretend to mourn the absence of stereotypical Rock guitar heroes who were meant to serve as role models for the kids. Either way, I can't really see the need for an analog guitar synth. There are plenty of stomp boxes and processing tools out there including Roger Linn's AdrenaLinn.

A vocoder seems to be even more niche. I mean how often do people use vocoders? There are also dedicated stompboxes for this like the Electro Harmonix V256 for example, plus a couple of synths that provide a vocoder, like the System-8 or the microKORG.

Shaw

  • ***
  • 853
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #441 on: November 05, 2017, 05:41:03 PM »
....guitar sales were declining according to Fender, Gibson, and Guitar Center
Guitar sales for Fender / Gibson are declining because, except for their most expensive guitars, they make poorly constructed products that have largely shunned innovation for years. And even their top of the line models are out-performed by their competitors.
Try comparing a Les Paul to a PRS; or compare a Strat to a Suhr.
Also, the young kidsí Guitar idols these days play Ibanez / PRS / Schecter... not Strats and Les Paulís.


And +1 for the modern VS / Sampler with analogue filters thatís coming down the pike....
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rockīn roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #442 on: November 05, 2017, 05:47:52 PM »
And I would not be surprised if it is a modern version of his earlier Wavestation which was both popular, but also did crazy things with samples in it's time... it would definitely be the perfect name for a sampling synth, and with Dave's favoring of his earlier synths names, it would be plausible.... but only time will tell :)

You couldn't sample with a Wavestation, though. It was PCM-based. If one had an actual sampler and a Wavestation A/D (the one with stereo inputs), it was possible to use your own samples as if you would use 'external' PCM waves - something only a few tinkerers did. And this worked only in tandem with a sampler that needed to be MIDI-synced to the WS in order for the samples (here used as pseudo PCM waves) to be triggered in time. The huge plus was of course the wave sequencing and that it's a pad machine galore, the big letdown in comparison to the VS: the digital non-resonant filter.

The big problem with the Wavestation is that it sounds pretty dated these days due to what was used as a basis for the PCM waves, in particular for the later version that also contained all sorts of natural instruments like pianos, flutes, saxophones, and so on. So with regard to the mostly abstract nature of the VS waves, the predecessor actually sounds less dated I'd say - at least less dated than those sounds that are typically associated with ROMplers. The VS also sounds fuller and more powerful due to the analog filter.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 06:04:17 PM by Paul Dither »

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #443 on: November 05, 2017, 05:50:28 PM »
Guitar sales for Fender / Gibson are declining because, except for their most expensive guitars, they make poorly constructed products that have largely shunned innovation for years. And even their top of the line models are out-performed by their competitors.

I know, I know, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.

Shaw

  • ***
  • 853
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #444 on: November 05, 2017, 05:56:19 PM »
Guitar sales for Fender / Gibson are declining because, except for their most expensive guitars, they make poorly constructed products that have largely shunned innovation for years. And even their top of the line models are out-performed by their competitors.

I know, I know, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.
Youíre comment was right on point... Iíve just been bewildered for decades by Fender / Gibson running their businesses into the ground. 
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rockīn roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #445 on: November 05, 2017, 06:09:58 PM »
Guitar sales for Fender / Gibson are declining because, except for their most expensive guitars, they make poorly constructed products that have largely shunned innovation for years. And even their top of the line models are out-performed by their competitors.

I know, I know, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.
Youíre comment was right on point... Iíve just been bewildered for decades by Fender / Gibson running their businesses into the ground.

Basically loads of bad business decisions. Here are two nice and well-written pieces by Eric Garland, who spent some time and plenty of articles analyzing the situation of Gibson and Guitar Center:
https://www.ericgarland.co/2016/09/27/gibson-rating-moodys/
https://www.ericgarland.co/2016/01/21/7-things-learned-guitar-center/

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #446 on: November 05, 2017, 06:58:53 PM »
Gibson is actually $530 Million in debt and currently selling their Memphis plant. The issue is they are overcharging for a name and the quality isnít meeting the price. Tuning issues, shoddy fret work, for the same price you could get a Tom Anderson or Suhr or B&G and have a guitar that destroys anything Gibson has put out 8n the past ten years.

Also I love the Andrenalinn iii...use it has my main guitar processor. I tend to record direct now but Iím still looking into Carr amps.

Back on topic though, Iím simply saying this will be the Namm where DSI will either do something unique or do something counter productive. Itíll be a damn shame if DSI come out with a Mono Synth or another analog mono timbral Poly Synth And Korg or someone comes out with something unique like multitimbral analog or something. Iíd actually cry.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, Origin Effects Cali76 and SlideRig compressor, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.

megamarkd

  • ***
  • 265
  • One day I will fund a vuvuzela marching band.
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #447 on: November 05, 2017, 09:21:40 PM »
I'd be over the moon if a Wavestation type synth was released, but with analogue filters and user slots for waves (which can be sampled on board).  I don't think Korg are going to do it, they seem fixed on new analogues.
With regards to envelopes, I'd like someone to do something a little different for once and have one voltage controlled ADSR envelope and one digital ADADSRR (or more) envelope that can be looped. Well actually two of each.  And two joysticks.

The big problem with the Wavestation is that it sounds pretty dated these days due to what was used as a basis for the PCM waves, in particular for the later version that also contained all sorts of natural instruments like pianos, flutes, saxophones, and so on......

The SR seems like it was aimed at the performing musician who wasn't inclined to program wild and crazy patches but wanted access to the incredible pads that the WS could produce, yet at the same time get a hold of some more standard presets that would be more at home on a 01w or an M1 (not that either of those machines weren't able to do some fabulous sounding pads for the time).  All those rather staid sound sources can be dispensed with in favour of more suitable waves for the sound designer.

Gerry Havinga

  • ***
  • 346
  • Really enjoying creating sounds and composing.
    • For the love of electronic music
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #448 on: November 06, 2017, 12:07:52 AM »
What about:
  • A product that can do sampling the old way (1999's Akai/EMU + analog filters / amps)
  • Something that can do "granular synthesis", bit like these guys: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/844778849/gr-1-granular-synthesizer combined with sampling/waves and analog filters / amps
  • A variation on the existing Prophet 12 with Dolby Surround / Dolby Digital features and extensive "three dimensional" sound modulation / design (artists performing with Buchla instruments often use quadraphonic sound I believe)
Prophet X, Prophet Rev2 and Evolver desktop, Waldorf Blofeld, Roland System-1, Nord Rack 2, Akai S5000, Dato DUO, Elektron Digitone, Deepmind12D, Schrittmacher, Bitwig v3. Daw-less...
https://gezz1.bandcamp.com/releases
https://soundcloud.com/gezz_havinga
https://gezz.eu
https://synthernational.eu/

Razmo

  • ***
  • 1970
  • I am shadow...
    • Kaleidoscopic Artworks
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #449 on: November 06, 2017, 12:59:03 AM »
And I would not be surprised if it is a modern version of his earlier Wavestation which was both popular, but also did crazy things with samples in it's time... it would definitely be the perfect name for a sampling synth, and with Dave's favoring of his earlier synths names, it would be plausible.... but only time will tell :)

You couldn't sample with a Wavestation, though. It was PCM-based. If one had an actual sampler and a Wavestation A/D (the one with stereo inputs), it was possible to use your own samples as if you would use 'external' PCM waves - something only a few tinkerers did. And this worked only in tandem with a sampler that needed to be MIDI-synced to the WS in order for the samples (here used as pseudo PCM waves) to be triggered in time. The huge plus was of course the wave sequencing and that it's a pad machine galore, the big letdown in comparison to the VS: the digital non-resonant filter.

The big problem with the Wavestation is that it sounds pretty dated these days due to what was used as a basis for the PCM waves, in particular for the later version that also contained all sorts of natural instruments like pianos, flutes, saxophones, and so on. So with regard to the mostly abstract nature of the VS waves, the predecessor actually sounds less dated I'd say - at least less dated than those sounds that are typically associated with ROMplers. The VS also sounds fuller and more powerful due to the analog filter.

I was not hinting at a Wavestation clone or even an update for that matter... I was solely thinking about the name itself... Dave also made reuse of the "Prophet" name, but the architecture is nowhere near the Prophet 5 or other Prophets he has made in the past.... I was simply suggesting a sample synth with the name "Wavestation" in it somehow, but probably a very different engine, maybe even based on something new and unique.... if it's just an upped Wavestation without sampling and storage etc. I would not even consider it in any way.... what I lack in synthesis right now is something sample based, where I can use my OWN samples in an intuitive and easily manageable way and with the usual FULL DSI SysEx package :) (I know the samples cannot be stored with the SysEx, but maybe in a flash based way for the samples, like on the Blofeld).

The way I'd like to see the sample storage done is somewhat like this:

One huge GB flash storage medium inside the sampler, just like with the Elektron machines PlusDrive.
No need for SD or other physical medium... use USB connection for transfers between DAW and storage.
Samples stored in a directory fashion so you can manage them comfortably.
DAW friendly filesystem so that you can see the drive from a DAW and copy files to/from the internal sample storage
The preset SysEx should have a pointer to the samples used on the internal drive (the samples file path)

Using this way, the SysEx not having samples included will still be a good compromise... it's basically a "ROM'pler" in a user definable GB large "Flash ROM"... the reason for using filename paths in the SysEx is that if you use indexing instead, every sample on the drive would have to be located in a specific order, which would be very inconvenient when you want to make adjustment to the samples on the drive, or rearrange them on the drive. With a dedicated editor for this, combining this with automatic dumping of samples to a DAW via USB could even provide a very nice and convenient way to save presets on your DAW with the samples included, and would be easily dump'able back to the machine.

The key is, that the storage form must be intuitive and easy to mange, while still providing you with the abillity to use the sampler stand alone and away from the DAW (for live performance situations)... the internal Flash HD solution would be convenient in this matter... the size will accommodate all the needs for a performer playing live, and he would not need to carry small SD card along to load and save from during a gig... everything is inside the sampler in flash, and he can prepare it at home with his DAW using such a dedicated editor.

Just my two cents...


If you need me, follow the shadows...

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #450 on: November 06, 2017, 04:34:40 AM »
I'd be over the moon if a Wavestation type synth was released, but with analogue filters and user slots for waves (which can be sampled on board).  I don't think Korg are going to do it, they seem fixed on new analogues.

Plus: they released the iWavestation last year.

With regards to envelopes, I'd like someone to do something a little different for once and have one voltage controlled ADSR envelope and one digital ADADSRR (or more) envelope that can be looped. Well actually two of each.

That would be a nice addition.

The SR seems like it was aimed at the performing musician who wasn't inclined to program wild and crazy patches but wanted access to the incredible pads that the WS could produce, yet at the same time get a hold of some more standard presets that would be more at home on a 01w or an M1 (not that either of those machines weren't able to do some fabulous sounding pads for the time).  All those rather staid sound sources can be dispensed with in favour of more suitable waves for the sound designer.

True. I basically had the update from the original to the EX version in mind, which included more ROM waves, particularly rather conventional ones that were often seen as a concession to the ROMpler market.

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #451 on: November 06, 2017, 04:35:47 AM »
I was not hinting at a Wavestation clone or even an update for that matter... I was solely thinking about the name itself...

Gotcha.

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #452 on: November 06, 2017, 04:40:50 AM »
What about:
  • A product that can do sampling the old way (1999's Akai/EMU + analog filters / amps)
  • Something that can do "granular synthesis", bit like these guys: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/844778849/gr-1-granular-synthesizer combined with sampling/waves and analog filters / amps
  • A variation on the existing Prophet 12 with Dolby Surround / Dolby Digital features and extensive "three dimensional" sound modulation / design (artists performing with Buchla instruments often use quadraphonic sound I believe)

Good point with the surround sound. I'd like to see the quadraphonic outputs of the Wavestation being used instead of individual layer A and B outputs, granted one could spatially navigate the four oscillators with a joystick.

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #453 on: November 06, 2017, 04:41:20 AM »
As far as a name goes

Sequential Mimic
or
Sequential Imitator.

I just think it's something as simple as taking the concept of the Korg Microsampler, make it a 5 octave keyboard (even 4 octaves is fine for me personally), add DSI filters on it and include a 8 track Multitrack sequencer on board.
Prophet 6, Prophet X, Moog Sub 37, Tempest Drum Computer, Roland V Piano, Fender American Stratocaster, Roger Linn Adrenalinn iii, Origin Effects Cali76 and SlideRig compressor, ASUS Zenbook Pro Computer, Soundcraft MTK 22 Mixer, Mark Of The Unicorn Digital Performer 10 Software.

dslsynth

  • ***
  • 1036
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #454 on: November 06, 2017, 08:33:39 AM »
I'd love to see Vector Synthesis brought back but I doubt that'll ever happen again.

I would love to see vector synthesis reimagined with todays technology. After all the joystick is just bilinear interpolation and we got way more computer resources available for instruments these days. Reconsidering how waveforms are rendered and allow for morphing wavetables would be great!
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature

dslsynth

  • ***
  • 1036
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #455 on: November 06, 2017, 09:05:56 AM »
Something that can do "granular synthesis" [...]

That would be great!
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #456 on: November 06, 2017, 10:42:37 AM »
Guitar sales for Fender / Gibson are declining because, except for their most expensive guitars, they make poorly constructed products that have largely shunned innovation for years. And even their top of the line models are out-performed by their competitors.

I know, I know, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.
Youíre comment was right on point... Iíve just been bewildered for decades by Fender / Gibson running their businesses into the ground.

I don't think Fenders are as bad as Gibsons, you can get a decent MIJ fender for an ok price less than $1500, to get a decent Gibson you are looking at over $4000 dollars as far as I can see, I have a couple of Gibsons over the $4000 mark and compared to nearly any other manufacturer at the same price point they are pretty crap. On one the fret ends were not even rounded off!

Basically if you want a Fender get a Suhr or a G&L and if you want a Gibson get anything else!

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #457 on: November 06, 2017, 11:05:10 AM »
Basically if you want a Fender get a Suhr or a G&L and if you want a Gibson get anything else!

Yep, agreed - G&L is the best option for Fender loyalists in the modern era; sadly, there is no Gibson equivalent in terms of lineage and quality.

And you're right, newer buyers just don't care to buy a Gibson or Epiphone when there are so many decent alternatives that provide better finish quality and performance for the $/£/Ä.
Sequential / DSI stuff: Prophet-6 Keyboard, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Mono Evolver Keyboard, Split-Eight, Prophet 2000

Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #458 on: November 06, 2017, 11:06:22 AM »
I would love to see vector synthesis reimagined with todays technology. After all the joystick is just bilinear interpolation and we got way more computer resources available for instruments these days. Reconsidering how waveforms are rendered and allow for morphing wavetables would be great!

Would you suggest a different controller instead of a joystick?

dslsynth

  • ***
  • 1036
Re: Next New DSI Instrument
« Reply #459 on: November 06, 2017, 11:18:31 AM »
Would you suggest a different controller instead of a joystick?

These days a 2D/3D touch surface may do the same better and easier with potentially better long term stability.

However, I was primarily thinking about voice architecture. Interpolation of waveforms inside single oscillator will allow for a much more expressive voice compared to the VS approach of interpolation between the output of four oscillators. Also, morphing oscillator waveshapes would allow for PPG like sound/features.
#!/bin/sh
cp -f $0 $HOME/.signature