Next New Sequential Instrument

LPF83

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1620 on: January 28, 2021, 09:36:06 AM »
There's just as much if not more a glut of cheap analog synths on the market, especially if these poly knock-offs actually start to see the light of day. Also, Sequential is an island onto itself. All they're going to do by sticking to purely analog synths is cannibalize their own market with such a single focused line-up.

The difference I see though, is that the cheap analogs are generally accepted as inferior, thus not really competition in the premium market.  Digital can be done quite well on the cheap, the DX7 itself is evidence of that.  And Dave doesn't seem interested in producing down-market products, so...
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

A Thousand Eyes

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1621 on: January 28, 2021, 09:41:07 AM »
When you're talking about cheap anything, the average Joe will not differentiate quality. Furthermore, there's a difference between purely digital and hybrid. 

LPF83

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1622 on: January 28, 2021, 10:08:39 AM »
When you're talking about cheap anything, the average Joe will not differentiate quality. Furthermore, there's a difference between purely digital and hybrid.

True about digital and hybrid, and Dave's approach to digital oscillators + analog filters is one reason I picked up a P12 module... it is a somewhat special bird in the realm of current offerings, and even if he releases a successor, that synth may not have the specific sound I grew fond of in the P12.

But in terms of avg Joes and quality.  I think there are a lot of people out there who will buy a DeepMind 12 knowing that its not a Prophet and fully acknowledging they'd rather have a Prophet.   Maybe they are just starting out or are just budget constrained. 

But then there are folks like me who are just unlikely to pay $3k for an 8 voice digital synth, because I can get plenty of digital inside the box with a $30 a plugin.  Even if price weren't the obstacle, I have to choose hardware space for my synths based on specific sound characteristics I can't easily get elsewhere. 

With digital, I can get many needs satisfied inside the box.  Analog, not so much.  I did some comparison testing between Repro-5 vst and the Prophet 10.   Every time I found a patch on Repro-5 that sounded particularly good, I started reproducing it on the the P10, and as expected the P10 ended up far surpassing the sound of the vst, and when the vst was close enough for a mix, it was usually using 40% of my CPU when chords were played.

So, even in the case of the P12, I was willing to give up $1,800 and the desk space a module takes.  For a good VCO analog that can't be faithfully captured by softsynths, the bar is higher.  Everyone's mileage varies, no doubt.

Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

A Thousand Eyes

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1623 on: January 28, 2021, 10:49:43 AM »
I doubt most people will be able to differentiate between a good piece of software and hardware in a mix these days. From my experience, the hardest thing to replicate is a good filter. I've not yet come across a digital filter that offers the quality or bite of an actual good analog filter (such as the Moog Ladder, SSI/SSM, or SEM). In a mix even that might be negligible to the listener, but it will make a massive difference when I'm sitting in front of the actual instrument and creating said music.

timboréale

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1624 on: January 28, 2021, 11:08:26 AM »
That may be the case for casual listeners, but there still exist people who really love hearing a beautiful lead with all the bark and sizzle the original hardware gave it - you might not notice it's gone if it's translated to software, but if it's there it can absolutely vitalize the recording. A big part of that, to me, is not whether digital is accurate enough or whatever to the sound, but the dynamics behaviour, the playability of it. It takes an immense amount of extremely high level DSP mathematics and careful implementation to get a truly convincing analogue filter reproduction, and so those are both rare and computationally expensive. On the flip side of the argument, I'm not aware of any digital-only filters with their own, unique, nuances that grab the ear so compellingly yet, although there are certainly tons of implementations of standard filter styles and even (Modor comes to mind) some uniquely digital varieties out there. The problem is the math - analogue circuits behave in some highly complex ways, if subtle, and getting those complexities both identified (hard part 1) and modelled correctly (hard part 2) in a *dynamic and interactive manner with the rest of the system* (very hard part 3) is both a technical and mathematical challenge that is still not fully perfected. We can create ideal static filters, beautifully close and accurate "enough" emulations of analogue, and the mathematics hold the promise that it's possible to equal any analogue behaviour we wish - this much is clear. But the real world experience of such things often (though, not always) deviates from this on many counts.

So, I don't see it as an analogue-vs-digital thing at all, there are digital filters that sound far better than some analogue filters to my ears (of course, I am not saying there is a digital *Moog* or *Curtis* filter that sounds better than an analogue *Moog* or *Curtis* filter per se, just that *some* digital filters sound better than *other* analogue filters), and there are digital filters that can do things no analogue can at all (linear phase, for instance).

That said, as to whether it matters if a user can hear it "in a mix" or not - well, great music can be made on a toy guitar or a cheap accordion or, hell, a rubber chicken. But in many cases it's considered 'better' when performed on a more refined instrument. And that's a big part of why it matters at all.
Prophet 6 keyboard, Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

LPF83

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1625 on: January 28, 2021, 11:37:26 AM »

Once a synth is in the mix, there are infinite ways that the sonic details tend to get diluted, such that the differences between hardware and software narrow.  Even in the example I mentioned before, Repro5 vs the P10... if I put both synths in a track with other instruments, FX, etc. then it would be hard to distinguish them.

But I can say that I definitely notice a difference between stuff I recorded using only software versus all hardware.  Those details which are very noticeable during the initial composition stage, then less noticeable after recording, still seem to add up to more than the sum of their parts in the end.  For that reason I try to use software only in a supplemental role these days.  I still do still use FX plugins quite a bit, because I don't want to have a pedal or rack for every possible config.

Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1626 on: January 28, 2021, 11:42:41 AM »
The sound produced is only one factor, soft synths are excellent these days and can always be sent through outboard to enhance or warm up

There is still a certain mojo you get with quality hardware synths that is slightly lacking in software, im not sure how much that translates to a finished production

A big part is the process of making the sound, its much more enjoyable and inspiring to me to hook up a keyboard and jam as opposed to sitting on a computer, i find it more creative and find more little nuances with hardware than software

Its also always there ready to turn on and play or record whenever i need, no maping controls or not working with new os it doesnt use all my cpu when i play a chord! and it will probably be like that as long as i have it

Jamming with a collection of synths you love is much more rewarding and creative for me and the sound difference while maybe negligable in a mix to my ears makes a big enough difference to make it worthwhile

 


LPF83

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1627 on: January 28, 2021, 12:39:12 PM »
The sound produced is only one factor, soft synths are excellent these days and can always be sent through outboard to enhance or warm up

There is still a certain mojo you get with quality hardware synths that is slightly lacking in software, im not sure how much that translates to a finished production

A big part is the process of making the sound, its much more enjoyable and inspiring to me to hook up a keyboard and jam as opposed to sitting on a computer, i find it more creative and find more little nuances with hardware than software

Its also always there ready to turn on and play or record whenever i need, no maping controls or not working with new os it doesn't use all my cpu when i play a chord! and it will probably be like that as long as i have it

Jamming with a collection of synths you love is much more rewarding and creative for me and the sound difference while maybe negligible in a mix to my ears makes a big enough difference to make it worthwhile

Another factor that makes a difference is what you're listening to it on.   There are some artists from Spotify that I know from their Youtube channels are all in-the-box for certain tracks, and others that I know are always hardware.  On my phone with earbuds, or on the stereo I had in my previous car, I can't say I noticed the difference that much.  Then I bought a new car last year, and opted for the premium stereo (which isn't perfect but is quite good), and at least on the vehicle built-in Spotify app, it really makes differences standout that I didn't notice before.  Even with some specific known cases aside, there are times where some tracks have this slightly dulled sound that reminds me of my plugins, even if I can't prove it, sounds like a pure DAW song.

But yeah, for me the initial inspiration of hearing the analog nature of a synth is huge, even if a lot of it gets lost the moment its bounced down.  Not being an audio engineer, I'm baffled as to why recorded audio in Cubase seems to preserve the fidelity, while sampling same audio any other way seems to dull it down noticeably.

Steering back toward the topic of new instruments, I'd just like to say that I am no longer really jonesing for a Pro One reissue (thought I would potentially still buy one if the price is right).  The reason is that I've become more familiar with my Moog Slim Phatty, and learned some settings that basically make it sound like a dead ringer replacement for the sound I was looking for from Pro One.  It might be the last mono synth I'll ever need, in fact.
Prophet 10, OB-X8m, Prophet 6, OB-6, 3rd Wave, Prophet 12m, Prophet Rev2-16, Toraiz AS-1, Pro 2, Virus TI2, Moog SlimPhatty, Hydrasynth desktop, Korg Minilogue XDm, Roland JP-8080, Roland System-8, Roland SPD-SX SE / Octapad, Maschine, Cubase/Ableton/Akai MPC

blewis

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1628 on: February 06, 2021, 05:56:07 AM »
Well many of us wanted a Poly Pro 2 for years and it seemed obvious and it never happened.

What makes the Pro 3 different, one might ask. I think the Moog One makes it different. An opinion.

I think there’s a real desire for something on the Moog One scale with a Sequential style UI - a UI and UX that is more simple and more straightforward.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved the Moog One interface from a geeky perspective and I think it is a huge accomplishment.

I also think the Moog One set an upper limit on size and price for the industry. The industry needed a ceiling somewhere under the Schmidt.

A Poly Pro 3 is such a synth that matches up with my idea of a “Sequential Moog One”.

That concept didn’t exist when the Pro 2 was out. The Prophet X also tells Sequential how a higher priced product works with customers.

All of that and Sequential has got their vintage injection done and the time is ripe to continue towards their future.

Yes, a polyphonic version of the Pro 3 would be an instant winner, especially if they could keep it under $3,000.  And it seems impossible that Sequential would not produce it, the instrument is so obvious.

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1629 on: February 06, 2021, 06:52:24 AM »
Well many of us wanted a Poly Pro 2 for years and it seemed obvious and it never happened.

What makes the Pro 3 different, one might ask. I think the Moog One makes it different. An opinion.

I think there’s a real desire for something on the Moog One scale with a Sequential style UI - a UI and UX that is more simple and more straightforward.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved the Moog One interface from a geeky perspective and I think it is a huge accomplishment.

I also think the Moog One set an upper limit on size and price for the industry. The industry needed a ceiling somewhere under the Schmidt.

A Poly Pro 3 is such a synth that matches up with my idea of a “Sequential Moog One”.

That concept didn’t exist when the Pro 2 was out. The Prophet X also tells Sequential how a higher priced product works with customers.

All of that and Sequential has got their vintage injection done and the time is ripe to continue towards their future.

Yes, a polyphonic version of the Pro 3 would be an instant winner, especially if they could keep it under $3,000.  And it seems impossible that Sequential would not produce it, the instrument is so obvious.

Fingers crossed.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see something like a VCO monster or evolution to the Prophet 6 type architecture like Paul Dither's Prophet-8 design. I'd also like to see a dedicate FM synth or dedicated Wavetable synth from Sequential....like a successor to the Prophet 12 (again similar to the design Paul Dither did). However, with a Poly Synth with Pro 3 architecture we would get two VCOs anyway and hopefully two Wavetable oscillators. So we could get all the classic VCO analog sounds in addition to things like FM, Wavetables, Wave sequencing all with a sequencer and dual effects...if anything it would be an evolution as to what the Poly Evolver was. Just hope it comes in white or blue or something visually different than the rest of Sequential's lineup.



timboréale

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1630 on: February 06, 2021, 08:00:53 AM »
Just hope it comes in white or blue or something visually different than the rest of Sequential's lineup.

Dear gods no, please. Friends don't let friends buy white synths.
Prophet 6 keyboard, Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1631 on: February 06, 2021, 09:20:31 AM »
Just hope it comes in white or blue or something visually different than the rest of Sequential's lineup.

Dear gods no, please. Friends don't let friends buy white synths.

Blue it is.

Also that white Prophet 12 looked mint.

Just be nice to spice up the Sequential catalog a bit visually. It’s a pretty redundant color scheme now.

timboréale

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1632 on: February 06, 2021, 09:42:14 AM »
Blue it is.

Also that white Prophet 12 looked mint.

Just be nice to spice up the Sequential catalog a bit visually. It’s a pretty redundant color scheme now.

I'm with Henry Ford on this: you can make my synths any colour as long as they're black with wood ends. I'll grandfather the Nords in on that statement, but only because they're red, which is marginally acceptable. I even sold on a Moog Subsequent 37CV limited edition because I hated the silver colour of it.

Fun fact: I was offered a brand new in box white Prophet 12 in place of the black floor model I was sold which is currently undergoing repair for various floor damage it endured. Even swap. I said hell no.

I *would* love it if I could get inverse-colour keyboards, though. Come to think of it, a dark charcoal grey synth with a striking reverse keyboard and red wheel illumination would look excellent.

That said, as long as I have a black option I won't begrudge you a blue one, in the spirit of the evolver line. Deal?  ;D
Prophet 6 keyboard, Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1633 on: February 06, 2021, 12:15:48 PM »
Blue it is.

Also that white Prophet 12 looked mint.

Just be nice to spice up the Sequential catalog a bit visually. It’s a pretty redundant color scheme now.

I'm with Henry Ford on this: you can make my synths any colour as long as they're black with wood ends. I'll grandfather the Nords in on that statement, but only because they're red, which is marginally acceptable. I even sold on a Moog Subsequent 37CV limited edition because I hated the silver colour of it.

Fun fact: I was offered a brand new in box white Prophet 12 in place of the black floor model I was sold which is currently undergoing repair for various floor damage it endured. Even swap. I said hell no.

I *would* love it if I could get inverse-colour keyboards, though. Come to think of it, a dark charcoal grey synth with a striking reverse keyboard and red wheel illumination would look excellent.

That said, as long as I have a black option I won't begrudge you a blue one, in the spirit of the evolver line. Deal?  ;D

Studiologic Sledge Black Edition might satisfy your craving for an inverse-colour keybed.

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1634 on: February 06, 2021, 12:17:53 PM »
Well many of us wanted a Poly Pro 2 for years and it seemed obvious and it never happened.

What makes the Pro 3 different, one might ask. I think the Moog One makes it different. An opinion.

I think there’s a real desire for something on the Moog One scale with a Sequential style UI - a UI and UX that is more simple and more straightforward.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved the Moog One interface from a geeky perspective and I think it is a huge accomplishment.

I also think the Moog One set an upper limit on size and price for the industry. The industry needed a ceiling somewhere under the Schmidt.

A Poly Pro 3 is such a synth that matches up with my idea of a “Sequential Moog One”.

That concept didn’t exist when the Pro 2 was out. The Prophet X also tells Sequential how a higher priced product works with customers.

All of that and Sequential has got their vintage injection done and the time is ripe to continue towards their future.

Yes, a polyphonic version of the Pro 3 would be an instant winner, especially if they could keep it under $3,000.  And it seems impossible that Sequential would not produce it, the instrument is so obvious.

Fingers crossed.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see something like a VCO monster or evolution to the Prophet 6 type architecture like Paul Dither's Prophet-8 design. I'd also like to see a dedicate FM synth or dedicated Wavetable synth from Sequential....like a successor to the Prophet 12 (again similar to the design Paul Dither did). However, with a Poly Synth with Pro 3 architecture we would get two VCOs anyway and hopefully two Wavetable oscillators. So we could get all the classic VCO analog sounds in addition to things like FM, Wavetables, Wave sequencing all with a sequencer and dual effects...if anything it would be an evolution as to what the Poly Evolver was. Just hope it comes in white or blue or something visually different than the rest of Sequential's lineup.

That P8 mock-up is pretty sweet and has some cool feature ideas. The only one I’d add is the ability for the master polymod depth to be controlled by wheel, velocity and aftertouch.

chysn

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1635 on: February 06, 2021, 12:20:25 PM »
Just be nice to spice up the Sequential catalog a bit visually. It’s a pretty redundant color scheme now.

Yes, totally. I loved the yellow of my old Mopho Keyboard. Then I paid extra so I could get a red Little Phatty. And I'm a big fan of the Moog Grandmother aesthetic. Why should guitarists have all the colors? Musical instruments don't necessarily need to look like Eisenhower-era ham radio equipment.
Prophet 5 Rev 4 #2711

MPC One+ ∙ MuseScore 4

www.wav2pro3.comwww.soundcloud.com/beige-mazewww.github.com/chysnwww.beigemaze.com

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timboréale

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1636 on: February 06, 2021, 12:43:29 PM »
Studiologic Sledge Black Edition might satisfy your craving for an inverse-colour keybed.

Hah! The keybed is the only thing I like about that synth!  ;D
Prophet 6 keyboard, Rev2-16, Prophet 12 Keyboard, Nords, etc...

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1637 on: February 07, 2021, 02:45:46 AM »
Just be nice to spice up the Sequential catalog a bit visually. It’s a pretty redundant color scheme now.

Yes, totally. I loved the yellow of my old Mopho Keyboard. Then I paid extra so I could get a red Little Phatty. And I'm a big fan of the Moog Grandmother aesthetic. Why should guitarists have all the colors? Musical instruments don't necessarily need to look like Eisenhower-era ham radio equipment.

Even things like the color of LEDs....I appreciate the Prophet X was yellowish/orange but when I saw the Pro 3 was yet another set of Red LEDs I grunted. I know one of the original ideas for the OB6 was to have blue LEDs. That would have looked great. Even if Dave refuses to offer white, blue or whatever color synths at least change the color of the LEDs.

It's what's different that stands out. I think regardless of how others might feel Sequential doing something a different color would make heads turn regardless if it was VCOs, Wavetables, FM. People would just be like "Wait...what's that all about?" Doing another black/grey with red LED synth with wooden end cheeks...I don't even think people would notice.

So sharp looking....

chysn

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Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1638 on: February 07, 2021, 03:46:42 AM »
Red LEDs are good because they don’t ruin eyes’ dark adaptation.

That said, Pro 3’s multi-color sequencer lightshow is beautiful. The manual explains only a few of the colors, but it can be striking.
Prophet 5 Rev 4 #2711

MPC One+ ∙ MuseScore 4

www.wav2pro3.comwww.soundcloud.com/beige-mazewww.github.com/chysnwww.beigemaze.com

he/him/his

Re: Next New Sequential Instrument
« Reply #1639 on: February 07, 2021, 05:27:20 AM »
Red LEDs are good because they don’t ruin eyes’ dark adaptation.

That said, Pro 3’s multi-color sequencer lightshow is beautiful. The manual explains only a few of the colors, but it can be striking.

Still....the Poly Evolver in the dark looks incredible with the blue lights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8QuPCByxQI