Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer

dsetto

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Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« on: March 17, 2017, 01:34:52 AM »
I am hoping the soon-to-be final Tempest has what I consider to be the core functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer.

These include:

- driftless sync*
- functional Song Position Pointer (between DAW & T in Playlist mode)
- un-quantized sequencing
- avoidable or no freezes
- functional file management
- consistent DAW-to-Tempest-to-DAW latency, so that if DAW’s audio engine parameters stay the same, the one MIDI Beat Clock offset works consistently, during DAW loop playback, or wherever DAW playhead is placed

Nice extras:
- 8-bar Beats
- basic Roll functionality that doesn't cause freezes (I don't need arpeggiator)
- ability to keep up and not freeze when DAW is at T's max tempo

* Driftless Sync Ideal Details:
- as Slave or Master, USB and DIN MIDI
- tight, no matter the DAW playhead placement
- in Beats or Playlist mode
- can handle Loop Playback in DAW; down to half note loop duration.


With the core, functional synthesis capability, very little else matters to me. To me, these functions allow me to use Tempest as:
1. Performance Drum (Synthesizer) Instrument
2. Drum Machine that works in conjunction with a DAW, as expected from a Drum Machine-DAW working, synchronized relationship

_____
1.4.5.1 is almost there. But, I'm not sure it's got each of these completely secured.
What I'm seeing warrants attention:

primary importance:
- drift

secondary importance:
- freezing at high tempos (while performing in Beats mode)
- freezing sometimes when engaging basic Roll


___
Somebody, please bring me up to speed on these matters. I'm surely missing what everybody knows.

dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2017, 01:38:22 AM »
I am offering this to the forum because:

1. User (or personal system) error may be at the root of my 3 issues, listed above.
2. I am seeking debunking or corroboration of these issues.


Thank you!

Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2017, 02:18:28 AM »
I am hoping the soon-to-be final Tempest has what I consider to be the core functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer.

These include:

- driftless sync*
- functional Song Position Pointer (between DAW & T in Playlist mode)
- un-quantized sequencing
- avoidable or no freezes
- functional file management
- consistent DAW-to-Tempest-to-DAW latency, so that if DAW’s audio engine parameters stay the same, the one MIDI Beat Clock offset works consistently, during DAW loop playback, or wherever DAW playhead is placed

Nice extras:
- 8-bar Beats
- basic Roll functionality that doesn't cause freezes (I don't need arpeggiator)
- ability to keep up and not freeze when DAW is at T's max tempo

Somebody, please bring me up to speed on these matters. I'm surely missing what everybody knows.

Top to bottom:

- The Tempest does not exhibit drift when slaved to a stable clock source at bpm's within its limits.
- SPP behavior has been addressed recently, with no confirmed bugs reported as of yet, *including your own tests!
- Unquantized sequencing is already implemented and has been for years now.
- File management is what it is and is not likely to change.
- There is one bug related to start latency, but it only involves an offset of +/- 1 tick.  This is not likely to change.
- 8 bar beats are already supported.
- The sync and roll issues that you have observed are most likely the result of slaving the Tempest to tempos exceeding it's max. range of 250bpm (as per your test notes in the beta-testing thread).

So I guess you're covered dsetto (wink).

Cheers!

dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2017, 02:53:16 AM »
Words of hope. Thank you, John. The two freezes were likely supra-250bpm. I'll toss the 220bpm drift, as overall daftness. I agree- all else should be secured. Half my point. With the other half being ...

If drift-less sync is important to you- don't count on me. Test 1.4.5.1 with your rig.

RobH

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2017, 03:12:05 AM »
I found some secret footage of the Tempest file management system being developed!!!

https://youtu.be/P12r8DKHsak?t=39s

The LOL method no less!!!! ahahah

Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2017, 03:27:31 AM »
Words of hope. Thank you, John. The two freezes were likely supra-250bpm. I'll toss the 220bpm drift, as overall daftness. I agree- all else should be secured. Half my point. With the other half being ...

If drift-less sync is important to you- don't count on me. Test 1.4.5.1 with your rig.

You have no idea how many times I've tested the Tempest... Seriously!

The only sync issue I'm concerned about is the LFO sync; and if you're going to concern yourself with the well-being of your Tempest, I suggest you pick something off the remaining bug-list that matters to you and kick up a fuss about that.

Slave timing is as good as it has ever been, and it's as good as it's ever going to be.

Cheers!

RobH

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2017, 05:16:56 AM »
I got to say that my sync to my analog keys drifts more than my tempest and thats ultra techy elektron gear at work.

I feel the Tempest sync is actually about as good a sync as i've had with an external unit sync'd with midi.

dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2017, 08:51:53 AM »
Great to hear, Rob. What are you syncing? Who's the slave? USB or DIN MIDI?

idm

Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2017, 09:55:38 AM »
Words of hope. Thank you, John. The two freezes were likely supra-250bpm. I'll toss the 220bpm drift, as overall daftness. I agree- all else should be secured. Half my point. With the other half being ...

If drift-less sync is important to you- don't count on me. Test 1.4.5.1 with your rig.

You have no idea how many times I've tested the Tempest... Seriously!

The only sync issue I'm concerned about is the LFO sync; and if you're going to concern yourself with the well-being of your Tempest, I suggest you pick something off the remaining bug-list that matters to you and kick up a fuss about that.

Slave timing is as good as it has ever been, and it's as good as it's ever going to be.

Cheers!

I agree. Seriously... Please stop posting so much noise about issues that have long been solved or are issues with your own computer/setup. I've been using the Tempest every day for hours on end since I got it and it slaves fine to ableton. Tight as a rock. It has some problems syncing to studio one, but you know what, every single piece of hardware has that in that DAW, so it's a DAW problem, not a Tempest problem.

All the other issues you mention have been solved or are feature request a.k.a. Noise.

I respect your enthusiasm, but please, read everything there is on the current state and if you think you found an issue, ask the community what you are doing wrong or what could be the issue, instead of saying everything is a bug...

The only real annoying bug left in the Tempest, is as John says: the LFO drifts away when it is set to beat or play reset mode. It's the one thing that would propel the Tempest into truly magical Christmas land because it opens up so much sound design potential, and, it is actually something that should work because it says SYNC.

Cheers,

RobH

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2017, 10:10:03 AM »
Great to hear, Rob. What are you syncing? Who's the slave? USB or DIN MIDI?

I'm running a PC with Live 9.7.2 as the master (focusrite 18i20) i guess will be the actual clock it slaves to i think and USB out to the Tempest as slave.

I haven't tried with an actual midi cable because, well, damn USB is so much bloody easier haha!I can try if you would like me to but i think it will result in similar timings its all the same signals i think midi clock.



dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2017, 12:15:28 PM »
Missed John's 2nd reply earlier. I'm finding zero drift, now that I am testing it out at legal tempos. (Thank you for that, John!)

dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2017, 01:05:56 PM »
Is Tempest freezing at 180bpm slaved, while in 16 Beats, triggering different beats normal? When triggering beats slowly via the pads at 120-180bpm no issue. But, triggering beats fast at 180bpm, T froze at about 1:30 in on a slave sync.

RobH

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2017, 01:14:19 PM »
Is Tempest freezing at 180bpm slaved, while in 16 Beats, triggering different beats normal? When triggering beats slowly via the pads at 120-180bpm no issue. But, triggering beats fast at 180bpm, T froze at about 1:30 in on a slave sync.

I just set mine to 182bpm and set all the different quantizes for the beats including off, then literally ran my fingers as fast as i could over all the pads in different directions as fast i i could and im still doing in minutes later no freeze.

Edit - minutes later in the same sync track i started in i've upped the tempo to 222 and now to 250 and am spammiing the beat buttons all over still going strong! I literally cannot make it freeze by swopping beats as fast i i possibly can for long periods. I did delete all projects that are not mine earlier. Not sure if thats having a positive effect on my Tempest. Maybe try free a little space up if its continually happening?

Its also still sync solid as rock. I've had to stop it now i've literally got a huge headache :(

Why did i do that to myself??? I left it on 250bpm hahah
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 01:25:10 PM by RobH »

dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2017, 01:58:13 PM »
At 196bpm, at about 2min, I began to trigger pads in "16 Beats" in grouping of 8th notes, and a few 16th notes. By minute 3 Tempest drifts late. I am recording my tests. I checked, both listening and looking at Tempest and the Pro Tools recorded clicks. I began recording around 3:30 and then 5:00 on the timeline. Both start tight, then drift.

Then I began recording at 6 seconds on timeline, and it went 1:30 with no drift. (Only both clicks. No Beats, no triggering.)

I have recordings capturing it all. Of course, I accept it can be user configuration error. I'm puzzled.

The trend that's surfacing:
The combination of triggering Beats too fast in "16 Beats" plus faster tempos (under 250bpm) is leading to drift; when timeline is beyond 3:00. (Starting PT playback at 0:06, reset tight sync of clicks only).

I'm beginning to think don't trigger beats too fast when at faster tempos. That's a bummer for me.

There's no way to say this in a cool way- but I've got really fast fingers.

I'd like other fast fingered Tempest users to trigger Beats fast, 1/8 & 1/16th notes, with tempos in the 196-250bpm zone. While synced to a DAW.

I'll either find:
- my own user error
- Limitations of Tempest

To put it in context: I'm entering a lower priority zone with expecting sync to stay steady with fast triggerings at fast tempos. From what I am gathering, slower tempos, with slower pad triggerings yields forever tight sync. (30 minutes, for sure.)

---
What I didn't write in my post last night on the main bugs thread was that I was purposefully stressing the deal by playing fast notes (maybe 1/8, triplet 8ths, and random successive 1/16ths) at those fast tempos.

RobH

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 02:04:09 PM »
At 196bpm, at about 2min, I began to trigger pads in "16 Beats" in grouping of 8th notes, and a few 16th notes. By minute 3 Tempest drifts late. I am recording my tests. I checked, both listening and looking at Tempest and the Pro Tools recorded clicks. I began recording around 3:30 and then 5:00 on the timeline. Both start tight, then drift.

Then I began recording at 6 seconds on timeline, and it went 1:30 with no drift. (Only both clicks. No Beats, no triggering.)

I have recordings capturing it all. Of course, I accept it can be user configuration error. I'm puzzled.

The trend that's surfacing:
The combination of triggering Beats too fast in "16 Beats" plus faster tempos (under 250bpm) is leading to drift; when timeline is beyond 3:00. (Starting PT playback at 0:06, reset tight sync of clicks only).

I'm beginning to think don't trigger beats too fast when at faster tempos. That's a bummer for me.

There's no way to say this in a cool way- but I've got really fast fingers.

I'd like other fast fingered Tempest users to trigger Beats fast, 1/8 & 1/16th notes, with tempos in the 196-250bpm zone. While synced to a DAW.

I'll either find:
- my own user error
- Limitations of Tempest

To put it in context: I'm entering a lower priority zone with expecting sync to stay steady with fast triggerings at fast tempos. From what I am gathering, slower tempos, with slower pad triggerings yields forever tight sync. (30 minutes, for sure.)

---
What I didn't write in my post last night on the main bugs thread was that I was purposefully stressing the deal by playing fast notes (maybe 1/8, triplet 8ths, and random successive 1/16ths) at those fast tempos.

Well mine stayed soild all the way up to 250bpm doing exactly what u say there and a whole lot more, i was smashing everybutton for minutes at a time as fast as i could with all digits lol.

When you get this "drift" is it out for multiple bars or just one bar where beats 3 and 4 very very slightly maybe 1ms drift then resync? Like how severe is this drift your experiencing??

dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2017, 02:36:41 PM »
I am definitely experiencing drift. I ran a test at 202bpm, with absolute minimal live pad triggering. Just a few Beat changes every 8-16 measures. So, while my issue may be exacerbated by rapid playing of the pads triggering my non-sequences, drift is happening without the rapid pad-beats triggering. And, I restarted later in the DAW timeline, and the clicks sync up.

I have proof in the audio recording of the Tempest output (click and beats) and Pro Tools Click. I hear and see it be lined up, and then drift.

And I'm not talking about jitter. I've got no issue with some jitter.

Bummer. Hopefully it's just something isolated on my end. And hopefully I'll figure it out.


RobH

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2017, 02:40:17 PM »
I am definitely experiencing drift. I ran a test at 202bpm, with absolute minimal live pad triggering. Just a few Beat changes every 8-16 measures. So, while my issue may be exacerbated by rapid playing of the pads triggering my non-sequences, drift is happening without the rapid pad-beats triggering. And, I restarted later in the DAW timeline, and the clicks sync up.

I have proof in the audio recording of the Tempest output (click and beats) and Pro Tools Click. I hear and see it be lined up, and then drift.

And I'm not talking about jitter. I've got no issue with some jitter.

Bummer. Hopefully it's just something isolated on my end. And hopefully I'll figure it out.

Download the Abelton live trial software and see if you get a tighter sync in that, then you can see if its pro tools or something else.

dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2017, 02:50:17 PM »
That last test I reported was 212bpm (not 202bpm).

Great questions. Once the drift begins, it stays present. It doesn't re-sync.

In this last test, at 212bpm (44.1kHz, 960ppqn), with minimal triggering, the drift was in range of:
1036 samples = 0:00.023sec (23ms) = 80ticks (at 960ppqn)

At two different readings about 10 seconds apart.



dsetto

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Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2017, 02:51:25 PM »
Yes. Time to test with a different DAW. I've got a thread open on that ;)

Re: Core Functions of a Performance Drum Instrument & Sequencer
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2017, 02:51:53 PM »
I am definitely experiencing drift. I ran a test at 202bpm, with absolute minimal live pad triggering. Just a few Beat changes every 8-16 measures. So, while my issue may be exacerbated by rapid playing of the pads triggering my non-sequences, drift is happening without the rapid pad-beats triggering. And, I restarted later in the DAW timeline, and the clicks sync up.

I have proof in the audio recording of the Tempest output (click and beats) and Pro Tools Click. I hear and see it be lined up, and then drift.

And I'm not talking about jitter. I've got no issue with some jitter.

Bummer. Hopefully it's just something isolated on my end. And hopefully I'll figure it out.

dsetto,

You really have to stop flooding the forum with these sync issues; or at very least, can you please to keep them to one thread?  The problem is obviously on your end.  This is either user-error, problems with your DAW set up, or an issue with your MIDI interface.  It's not your Tempest.  And there are actual bugs, tested and confirmed, at risk of never being fixed, that need our attention.  This is not one of them.

I, for one, would appreciated it if you could just pick a thread and stick with it.  If that's this thread, then fine; but please... Otherwise, like I said, pick a bug from the actual bug-list that affects you negatively and campaign for that.  This is counterproductive.

Cheers!