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Faulty waveforms in Tempest?

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2017, 07:54:40 PM »
John... I really don't like bickering in forums, for the sake of your future posts I'll just show you this .
"Ah, the proverbial "grapevine", what a waste of everyone's time it is."


Like it or not that's about as dismissive as it gets.


I get it we have all been here a while. We have all been through this (on the other board) ... but not everyone actually has been through this. It's new as some people are infact new owners. Tempest is still sold with vs waveforms as part of its sales decree ...
I'm not here to fight you. I know you are a good dude with a shit ton of great posts. But we can all get a little short some times.

Now as far as dsi is concerned... the first time I got my tempest I noticed it right away as that was one of the key reasons I bought it. I emailed them and was told "the vs waveforms in the tempest are of the actual vs waveforms and what you are hearing as "digital noisy sound" is likely due to the low resolution of the wavetables themselves"
This was a completely BS line and they didn't change their tone u till I sent them shots of the oscope proving they are not VS waveforms... mind you this is in 2015 quite a while after this should have been known. So either they tried to play me for a fool or they lacked in testing and communication. As someone who consults and tests for many companies I highly doubt this was unknown at that time and if it was... shame on that crew.

Regardless I'm not here to start shit. I simply felt the question was valid and didn't deserve the response it got. Not to me, and not to this poster.
It's similar to the response I get when I bring up the terrible midi implementation, or low resolution of filter control.... it gets tiring to see a company and comunity of the company I so respect, act in ways that just look.... tired and half assed. Yeah that's harsh. I wish I never had to say it. Pride in ones work is something that an American manufacturer should take very seriously . When people bring up issues, they should go above and beyond to fix. And we shouldn't see the same problem in the following product... I'm gonna stop cause I don't want this to go to personal. But just know. I take it that seriously because I care. I want dsi to succeed. I look up to them. I have  tremendous respect  for their entire crew.

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2017, 02:25:29 AM »
John... I really don't like bickering in forums, for the sake of your future posts I'll just show you this .
"Ah, the proverbial "grapevine", what a waste of everyone's time it is."


Like it or not that's about as dismissive as it gets.


I get it we have all been here a while. We have all been through this (on the other board) ... but not everyone actually has been through this. It's new as some people are infact new owners. Tempest is still sold with vs waveforms as part of its sales decree ...
I'm not here to fight you. I know you are a good dude with a shit ton of great posts. But we can all get a little short some times.

Now as far as dsi is concerned... the first time I got my tempest I noticed it right away as that was one of the key reasons I bought it. I emailed them and was told "the vs waveforms in the tempest are of the actual vs waveforms and what you are hearing as "digital noisy sound" is likely due to the low resolution of the wavetables themselves"
This was a completely BS line and they didn't change their tone u till I sent them shots of the oscope proving they are not VS waveforms... mind you this is in 2015 quite a while after this should have been known. So either they tried to play me for a fool or they lacked in testing and communication. As someone who consults and tests for many companies I highly doubt this was unknown at that time and if it was... shame on that crew.

Regardless I'm not here to start shit. I simply felt the question was valid and didn't deserve the response it got. Not to me, and not to this poster.
It's similar to the response I get when I bring up the terrible midi implementation, or low resolution of filter control.... it gets tiring to see a company and comunity of the company I so respect, act in ways that just look.... tired and half assed. Yeah that's harsh. I wish I never had to say it. Pride in ones work is something that an American manufacturer should take very seriously . When people bring up issues, they should go above and beyond to fix. And we shouldn't see the same problem in the following product... I'm gonna stop cause I don't want this to go to personal. But just know. I take it that seriously because I care. I want dsi to succeed. I look up to them. I have  tremendous respect  for their entire crew.

First of all, that quote about the "grapevine" was not me being dismissive of the faulty waveforms, but rather me being critical of the misinformation that the OP had obtained elsewhere, citing a faulty chip inside the Tempest.  I gave him the backstory, answered his questions, and merely suggested that he not worry about it... For which, I might add, he thanked me.

Second of all, few people have been as critical of DSI as myself, or as proactive about getting the Tempest fixed for that matter, and I clearly stated in my other posts that I was not making excuses for them, and that the issue should indeed have been caught at the source and fixed.  But it wasn't, and so that's just the way it is, and that was my point.

Lastly, my personal and subjective opinion about whether or not this inherent anomaly with the VS waves actually proves a hindrance to sound design, or otherwise detracts from the Tempest's merits as a synth, is mine and mine alone.  I simply don't find the waveforms to be a burden, broken though they may be.  And that opinion, which is based on my own extensive use of the Tempest, was meant only to offer a little perspective to a concerned person who had already admitted that he hadn't noticed the noise himself.  Ironically perhaps, I was attempting to make him feel better about his purchase.  An optimism fueled by the fact that I was, at that time, operating under the assumption that DSI was still working hard to fix the remaining bugs in the operating system.

At any rate, I don't care anymore.  It's off my plate.  Say whatever you want about me, the Tempest, each other... I'm moving on.  Good will to y'all, I mean that.

Cheers!

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2017, 04:52:34 AM »
Fair enough and for the record... posting after having drinks isn't a habit I prefer... but it happens.

Is tempest still a very capable and kick ass machine? Yup.

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2019, 10:51:44 AM »
Man. This still bugs me. Do you know how awesoime it would be if these samples weren't unusable? This thing would sound like a D50!

Razmo

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Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2019, 11:38:04 AM »
It IS a pain in the neck to be honest, but the point is that there will never be a fix for this, so we are only tormenting ourselves when we keep looking at the warts, instead of simply ask ourselves, if what IS ok, is good enough... if not, I'd get rid of the Tempest... I've done that twice with this problem being a major reason, but I've gotten the darn machine again, and I'm on my third Tempest... there has to be something good about it if I keep obtaining the TEMPEST... I just have to stop looking at those flawed VS waves all the time.

Just to make things worse, there is also a very distinguishable "click" in one of the looped noise waveforms... some people hear it more than others... personally I've been seamlessly looping samples for more than 25 years, and i hear even the smallest glitch... especially when the samples get more pure in nature... like with the VS waves... it is CERTAINLY NOT just a few of the VS waves we're talking about here, that's for sure.

For doing drumsounds, I'd say that these waveform glitches really does not matter at all... percussion is normally noisy, or at least they are filtered so much in their "tails" that the buzzing simply disappear... the buzzing may even be an advantage in percussion sounds because it gives the sound a bit more sizzle...

But when we're talking soft lead sounds, bells and other synthesizer sounds the glitches really becomes a f***** pain in the neck... but then again... this is mainly a percussion synthesizer, and if I want smooth and pure tones, I'll simply use something else because with only 6 voices, using both percussion and synth sounds quickly becomes a problem with so few voices... Personally I'd not be doing anything else but percussion on the Tempest anyway... at maximum let it play a single synth voice with a bass which really has no impact on the buzzy waveforms anyway...

but with that said... and a many others are saying in this thread, it is still a lousy quality assurance on behalf of DSI that they did not catch this... but with Dave's seemingly non-interest in samples, why would it surprise anyone? ... he outsourced the samples to 8DIO including the software as well, leaving all PX users to the mercy of 8DIO... just like he did with this TEMPEST sample chip... this is just something users will have to get into their head for the future; if it's from Dave, and involve samples, BE WARNED! ;)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 11:39:48 AM by Razmo »
If you need me, follow the shadows...

van

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2019, 01:50:05 PM »
so I have the same issue with almost every VS samples and some more.
it bothers me because it limits some of my sound design patches!
is it meant to be like that - "with a little hair!"
or
does someone know where exactly the problem is coming from. which chip is causing it?
perhaps loose connection? solder issue? or the chip is brocken - then can it be replaced? etc..


EDIT: and btw, guys, why are you fighting each other? you really don't have better things to do than this : to offend/defend yourselfs?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:09:33 PM by van »

Razmo

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Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2019, 10:41:30 AM »
so I have the same issue with almost every VS samples and some more.
it bothers me because it limits some of my sound design patches!
is it meant to be like that - "with a little hair!"
or
does someone know where exactly the problem is coming from. which chip is causing it?
perhaps loose connection? solder issue? or the chip is brocken - then can it be replaced? etc..


EDIT: and btw, guys, why are you fighting each other? you really don't have better things to do than this : to offend/defend yourselfs?

It is not a broken chip, it is a custom chip where the stored samples has this glitch in the data itself somehow... What exactly is causing it I do not know, but it is not wrong loop lengths because the waves play in tune... Just one sample wrong would make the wave out of tune... So it must be the sample data itself that is the problem

But I think I read in the chips datasheet that it can play back mp3 compressed files, so I am wondering if the glitches is simply the result of the compression... Compression may not be hearable in single shot waves, but looped samples is a totally different matter... One of the noise waveforms also have and audible glitch... In noise waveforms they can be hard to hear though because of the noise content... Single cycle waveforms are very delicate, and even the slightest deviation in the loop points will ruin the sound, especially in the more pure waveforms... So compression might be the reason.
If you need me, follow the shadows...

van

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2019, 12:12:05 AM »
ok. I got it!
it's one of the main and well known problems of digital sound synthesis.
it's the so called aliasing.
in order to avoid it (or do antialiasing) you have to do some smart digital (or analog) filtering,
or/and use different waveform tables for different (high/mid/low) frequencies,
or/and use interpolation between the individual samples.
so Tempest has only one waveform cycle for the whole audible range and it is playing it back, bare metal, without any filtering/ interpolation whatsoever and this is causing the problem.
Actually every digital sample is affected, but those with more higher frequencies are more noticeable.

EDIT: perhaps there are using some interpolation (I don't know) and the things we're left with are analog filtering and one waveform for all ranges to deal with.

So yeah, good analog synth are hard to design. But good digital synth are even harder ;)

EDIT2: btw does somebody know if the samples are uploaded via sysex or hardburned into the chip?
f.e. was there an update providing new/ updated samples wich the end user was able to install?

EDIT3: aha... is the "Tempest_Sam_1.x.syx" the sample data?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 12:38:06 AM by van »

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2019, 02:06:54 AM »
btw does somebody know if the samples are uploaded via sysex or hardburned into the chip?

I知 afraid samples are hard burned..No way to import user samples..If it was the other way around we would have a fix already..

van

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 02:30:03 AM »
btw does somebody know if the samples are uploaded via sysex or hardburned into the chip?

I知 afraid samples are hard burned..No way to import user samples..If it was the other way around we would have a fix already..

so what is the "Tempest_Sam_1.x.syx" ?

and btw. there is no "fix" for that. this is a (hardware/ software) design decision they had to make..
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 02:31:58 AM by van »

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2019, 05:46:21 AM »
No idea about the Sam syx and yes i know that was their decision that痴 what i知 telling you..If it was another scenario we would have a fix..

btw does somebody know if the samples are uploaded via sysex or hardburned into the chip?

I知 afraid samples are hard burned..No way to import user samples..If it was the other way around we would have a fix already..

so what is the "Tempest_Sam_1.x.syx" ?

and btw. there is no "fix" for that. this is a (hardware/ software) design decision they had to make..

van

Re: Faulty waveforms in Tempest?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2019, 08:17:53 AM »
ok.. but I really wanna know what or for what this file is? anyone?


No idea about the Sam syx and yes i know that was their decision that痴 what i知 telling you..If it was another scenario we would have a fix..

btw does somebody know if the samples are uploaded via sysex or hardburned into the chip?

I知 afraid samples are hard burned..No way to import user samples..If it was the other way around we would have a fix already..

so what is the "Tempest_Sam_1.x.syx" ?

and btw. there is no "fix" for that. this is a (hardware/ software) design decision they had to make..