Waldorf Blofeld vs Poly Evolver Keyboard

[Paul Dither]

Cool! Thanks! Is it real Wavetable/FM synthesis on board or are they just sample based?

It's DSP-based. There are 66 wavetables, but only for oscillator 1. Oscillators 2 and 3 are only capable of the usual classic analog waveforms. And although you can layer sounds, there's no MIDI mutimode.

[Sacred Synthesis]

In your research, Lobo, make sure you're up to date, because the Sledge has been greatly improved over the past year or two.  The current OS is 2.0.

http://www.studiologic-music.com/products/sledge2/

[Paul Dither]

Haven't heard much about the Sledge. Can it do those DX/FM/VS type sounds I'm after? I heard it's mostly just virtual analog.

It's mostly a VA with some wavetable flavor, as the latter is limited to one oscillator. FM is possible from oscillator 1 to oscillator 2 and oscillator 2 to oscillator 3, but that won't get you near DX-like FM sounds. You should at least have 4 oscillators for the latter purpose.

[Paul Dither]

I forgot to mention that you can load multisamples into the 60 MB memory for playback via oscillator 1. And the output signal of version 2.0 was raised for about 6dB, so you don't encounter the Blofeld issue. Modulation capabilities are somewhat limited, as there are 3 LFOs (one is controlled by the mod wheel), but no further modulation matrix with freely assignable mod slots. And the velocity functionality is supposed to be very limited in terms of independent assignment options.

[LoboLives]

I believe it has all three - digital oscillators, wavetables (from the PPG), and samples.  But I haven't researched the Sledge for a while, nor have I played one.  Perhaps the others know better.  Soundquest had one.

Take a look at this thread: http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,570.0.html

Thanks a bunch!

[Razmo]

The Sledge is basically a Blofeld engine... it's written by Waldorf, but it does lack some of the features of the Blofeld.... so if Blofeld is what you want but with a bigger editing surface, Sledge might be it...

[megamarkd]

I don't have a Poly Evolver but I have the original desktop.  I also have a Blofeld.  The two are totally different beasts.  The Blofeld is more like the Microwave XT, with it's wavetable scanning and digital filters.  The Evolver doesn't implement it's wavetables anything like how Waldorf do.  Waldorf have 64 samples per wavetable whereas the Evolve has one wavetable, full stop. The Blofeld can be very organic sounding when sweeping the wavetable you have set because of this.  But if you want wavetable synthesis, really you need a Wave or Microwave.  The Blofeld doesn't quite make it to the same depths of programming as those two do.  Seven stage looping envelopes FTW!

[LoboLives]

Haven't heard much about the Sledge. Can it do those DX/FM/VS type sounds I'm after? I heard it's mostly just virtual analog.

It's mostly a VA with some wavetable flavor, as the latter is limited to one oscillator. FM is possible from oscillator 1 to oscillator 2 and oscillator 2 to oscillator 3, but that won't get you near DX-like FM sounds. You should at least have 4 oscillators for the latter purpose.

Hmmm I saw a video with the Sledge doing electric piano type sounds and it gets a pretty darn close DX FM Rhodes type sound as well as some bell sounds. It's not perfect and somewhat limited like you said but it may still beat having to menu dive constantly. The Blofeld and Evolver are still on my list just have to hear a few more demos. I wish someone would do more Evolver videos showcasing more FM/VS type sounds that way I could judge it better.

[Paul Dither]

Haven't heard much about the Sledge. Can it do those DX/FM/VS type sounds I'm after? I heard it's mostly just virtual analog.

It's mostly a VA with some wavetable flavor, as the latter is limited to one oscillator. FM is possible from oscillator 1 to oscillator 2 and oscillator 2 to oscillator 3, but that won't get you near DX-like FM sounds. You should at least have 4 oscillators for the latter purpose.

Hmmm I saw a video with the Sledge doing electric piano type sounds and it gets a pretty darn close DX FM Rhodes type sound as well as some bell sounds. It's not perfect and somewhat limited like you said but it may still beat having to menu dive constantly. The Blofeld and Evolver are still on my list just have to hear a few more demos. I wish someone would do more Evolver videos showcasing more FM/VS type sounds that way I could judge it better.

Yeah, the Sledge can go in that direction sonically. I guess it depends on how much you care about actual DX-like FM synthesis. So that's what my comment was based upon. The Evolver is only capable of exponential FM, so you would have to be careful with the amounts of FM you're dialing in if you prefer musical outcomes in terms of easily trackable tonality. It can get nasty really quick. That's why I brought up the Prophet 12 with its linear FM option that would allow you to approximate at least 4-OP FM. Furthermore, the Prophet 12 is also capable of wavetable sounds.

Of course it's hard to find an all-in-one solution, as all the synths that have been brought up here have different strengths. However, if you want to get furthest away from Moog and Prophet sounds, I'd still rather recommend the Blofeld simply because it offers more options. Its interface might not be as immediate as the one of the Sledge, but you'll get the digital waveshapes and sample content option for all three oscillators. I'm just pointing this out because according to your posts the last thing you seem to want is a collection of classic analog waveshapes, which is all the Sledge's 2nd and 3rd oscillator do offer. In other posts you also mentioned that multi-timbrality is important to you and the Blofeld is 16 times multi-timbral.

Here are two more examples about the Blofeld's digital strengths that also show that the menu diving isn't too bad at all:

[LoboLives]

Haven't heard much about the Sledge. Can it do those DX/FM/VS type sounds I'm after? I heard it's mostly just virtual analog.

It's mostly a VA with some wavetable flavor, as the latter is limited to one oscillator. FM is possible from oscillator 1 to oscillator 2 and oscillator 2 to oscillator 3, but that won't get you near DX-like FM sounds. You should at least have 4 oscillators for the latter purpose.

Hmmm I saw a video with the Sledge doing electric piano type sounds and it gets a pretty darn close DX FM Rhodes type sound as well as some bell sounds. It's not perfect and somewhat limited like you said but it may still beat having to menu dive constantly. The Blofeld and Evolver are still on my list just have to hear a few more demos. I wish someone would do more Evolver videos showcasing more FM/VS type sounds that way I could judge it better.

Yeah, the Sledge can go in that direction sonically. I guess it depends on how much you care about actual DX-like FM synthesis. So that's what my comment was based upon. The Evolver is only capable of exponential FM, so you would have to be careful with the amounts of FM you're dialing in if you prefer musical outcomes in terms of easily trackable tonality. It can get nasty really quick. That's why I brought up the Prophet 12 with its linear FM option that would allow you to approximate at least 4-OP FM. Furthermore, the Prophet 12 is also capable of wavetable sounds.

Of course it's hard to find an all-in-one solution, as all the synths that have been brought up here have different strengths. However, if you want to get furthest away from Moog and Prophet sounds, I'd still rather recommend the Blofeld simply because it offers more options. Its interface might not be as immediate as the one of the Sledge, but you'll get the digital waveshapes and sample content option for all three oscillators. I'm just pointing this out because according to your posts the last thing you seem to want is a collection of classic analog waveshapes, which is all the Sledge's 2nd and 3rd oscillator do offer. In other posts you also mentioned that multi-timbrality is important to you and the Blofeld is 16 times multi-timbral.

Here are two more examples about the Blofeld's digital strengths that also show that the menu diving isn't too bad at all:

These are very good points. Especially if I want to sequence the Blofeld I might get better results than the Sledge. i was thinking about it recently and while it may not be as immediate generally with FM/DX type sounds they aren't really manipulated as they are played. It's more just create a patch and play it. At least from the music I'm into.

It's more just switching between patches on the fly because from what I can tell there's no cursor buttons to do this unless I'm mistaken.

[Razmo]

One thing to remember with FM synthesis is, that even though many digital synths claim to have FM synthesis, and it is theoretically correct, the way you program that FM, is vastly different than on a true FM synth like any DX... it is usually just a matter of FM'ing one oscillator from another and that's that... if you even THINK that this is capable of giving you what a REAL FM synth with even only 4 carriers/modulators can, then you will surely be disappointed. Even the P12 is lame in this department compared to a real FM synth.

Yes, you can get the same type of timbres... FM timbres... and yes, you will be able to create DX'ish kind of sounding presets... but you will never really reach the sound of a true FM synthesizer, and even though a true DX can be a pain to program, it will not be any different on any other non-FM digital synth... if it's easier, it's because you more or less only operate with one carrier/modulater (2OP) at a time, which is the most basic of building blocks in a true FM synth.

The FS1R for example gives you 8 tonal operators, that can be arranged in more than 80 different combinations! (algorithms), just to give you a bit of hint as to what such a synth is capable of... on top it has another 8 atonal operators as well!

So if the real goal is to get DX sound in such a huge degree that this is what matters most, maybe it would be better to simply get a REAL FM synth in addition? ... also, the good old DX7 is cheap, and there are more than 15.000 free presets for it on the web, so you don't even have to program yourself, you can just browse to your way thru life!

This is why I have decided to go for niche synths instead of these "catch em all" giants of workstations and power VA's... because they do what they do BEST.

Just my two cents...

[Soundquest]

Regarding FM capability.....I  can say that I was able to get some wild and weird FM voices out of my Sledge (version 1).   I have a song "Journey to the Comet" entirely done with Sledge that I think show cases what's possible in that realm.   I cannot post it now but will soon as I can- maybe tomorrow.   I'd be interested to re-trying the Sledge with the improvements that have been made.   

Also,  I gotta throw this out every once in a while in defense of the ignored and seemingly red headed step child- Nord Lead 4.   If I want quick easy FM, and digital waveshapes for  DX7 territory, I turn on the switch to this instrument.  The Lead 4 has many sound waves on osc 2 to choose from,  though you cannot slide thru the waveshapes while playing like you can with Evolver and other instruments mention in this thread.    With 4 layers possible as the Lead 4 has, you can create some wave shape movement with the envelopes each being different.  Also,  it allows  FM applied amount to be modulated as well.  Pretty stuff is achievable as well as some of the harsher FM sounds too.   I suppose the Sledge has the bigger keyboard and aftertouch,  but if I am forced to chose,  I'd still pick the Nord.

[proteus-ix]

plus they have some quirks and irritating bugs that DSI never fixed ...

Care to elaborate?  As a new PEK owner, I'm curious what to keep an eye out for, thanks!

[proteus-ix]

• {mfr}{model}:{data resolution}/{filter IC vendor}

• Sequential Prophet VS: 12-bit / CEM filters
• DSI Evolver Series: 12-bit / CEM filters
• Ensoniq ESQ-1/SQ-80: 12-bit / CEM filters

Ooooh, I had never realized this similarity before.  I've been curious about the Ensoniq ESQ/80s, but haven't played them.  Would my PEK cover the same territory, or do they do other things as well?

[DavidDever]

• {mfr}{model}:{data resolution}/{filter IC vendor}

• Sequential Prophet VS: 12-bit / CEM filters
• DSI Evolver Series: 12-bit / CEM filters
• Ensoniq ESQ-1/SQ-80: 12-bit / CEM filters

Ooooh, I had never realized this similarity before.  I've been curious about the Ensoniq ESQ/80s, but haven't played them.  Would my PEK cover the same territory, or do they do other things as well?

The ESQ-1 and SQ-80 waveforms can be a little soft, but with a bit of coaxing you can get some nice sounds out of them (or not-so-nice, if you use the SQ-80's random upper wavetables).

[Soundquest]

Regarding FM capability.....I  can say that I was able to get some wild and weird FM voices out of my Sledge (version 1).   I have a song "Journey to the Comet" entirely done with Sledge that I think show cases what's possible in that realm.   I cannot post it now but will soon as I can- maybe tomorrow.   I'd be interested to re-trying the Sledge with the improvements that have been made. 

Here's that song done with the Sledge to demo some of it's fm characters.  I did this a few years ago entirely with Studiologic Sledge.   The clicking heard during the last minute is produced from magnetic pulses recorded from the Rosetta mission spacecraft in orbit around comet 67P.  The pulses were converted to sound pulses that I ran thru various filters simultaneously to make the tonal differences.   I always wanted to utilize space "sounds" in a song

https://soundcloud.com/wavescape-1/journey-to-the-comet

[Razmo]

plus they have some quirks and irritating bugs that DSI never fixed ...

Care to elaborate?  As a new PEK owner, I'm curious what to keep an eye out for, thanks!

Try the old DSI forum in the Evolver section... I have wrote extensively about the quirks and bugs in there... just search via Google for "DSI forum" and you should find it... it's been a while since I had the Evolvers (desktop, PER and Mono Keys), so I do not remember it all fully... besides, the debate got quite heated because of some reasons you can read in there as well... do not want to start that all over again in here... critique is a bitch sometimes... obviously.

[MisterHemi]

• {mfr}{model}:{data resolution}/{filter IC vendor}

• Sequential Prophet VS: 12-bit / CEM filters
• DSI Evolver Series: 12-bit / CEM filters
• Ensoniq ESQ-1/SQ-80: 12-bit / CEM filters

Ooooh, I had never realized this similarity before.  I've been curious about the Ensoniq ESQ/80s, but haven't played them.  Would my PEK cover the same territory, or do they do other things as well?

My SQ80 is my main piece of equipment. Sonically it's very different than either the Prophet VS and Evolver.

It has, in my opinion, a smoother less harsh sound to it but it can be aggressive if programmed right.

[proteus-ix]

plus they have some quirks and irritating bugs that DSI never fixed ...

Care to elaborate?  As a new PEK owner, I'm curious what to keep an eye out for, thanks!

Try the old DSI forum in the Evolver section... I have wrote extensively about the quirks and bugs in there... just search via Google for "DSI forum" and you should find it... it's been a while since I had the Evolvers (desktop, PER and Mono Keys), so I do not remember it all fully... besides, the debate got quite heated because of some reasons you can read in there as well... do not want to start that all over again in here... critique is a bitch sometimes... obviously.

Heh, yeah.  Thanks. 

[proteus-ix]

• {mfr}{model}:{data resolution}/{filter IC vendor}

• Sequential Prophet VS: 12-bit / CEM filters
• DSI Evolver Series: 12-bit / CEM filters
• Ensoniq ESQ-1/SQ-80: 12-bit / CEM filters

Ooooh, I had never realized this similarity before.  I've been curious about the Ensoniq ESQ/80s, but haven't played them.  Would my PEK cover the same territory, or do they do other things as well?

My SQ80 is my main piece of equipment. Sonically it's very different than either the Prophet VS and Evolver.

It has, in my opinion, a smoother less harsh sound to it but it can be aggressive if programmed right.

Cool, I haven't had a chance to play one yet.  Do you know they sound compared to the EPS16+?