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P12 modules, leaking fluids

Razmo

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P12 modules, leaking fluids
« on: November 11, 2015, 03:01:59 AM »
It has just come to my knowledge, that P12 modules has a thermal padding on the inside, that is known to leak fluids (non conductive, so it will not hurt the electronics they say at DSI)... This seems to have "been known" to do so, and thus is "expected behavior"... so I'm wondering why on earth this padding was used when they designed the P12 module...

Calling this "expected behavior" is really pushing it in my view... and I really think that DSI ought to start warning buyers of this sideeffect that may run down your other equipment in your rack if rackmounted or run out on your table if on a table... I'm sorry DSI, but I will not call running fluids in my studio "expected".  ???

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 05:48:33 PM »
It's really a matter of electrical/mechanical characteristics and design constraints. We wanted to make the Prophet 12 Module as small as possible, which we did. This, like many design decisions comes at a price. The Prophet 12 main board runs pretty warm and there's no way around that. So, we commissioned a professional thermal analysis which gave us the best possible heat dissipation options for the enclosure through passive convection. To further aid heat dissipation we used a carefully positioned thermal pad.

Thermal pads are widely used in various electronics applications. A quick internet search will garner a myriad of results showing similar behavior of thermal pads over time, i.e. secretion of inert, non-conductive fluid. The "expected behavior" you are referring to is that thermal pads have been known to express this fluid, not that "we expected fluid to leak out of your synth". We're not trying to hide anything from anyone and we're also not excited about this.

Fortunately, it does not affect the operation of the Prophet 12 Module, and it is easy to wipe away if you see any fluid. It is unlikely the amount of fluid emitted from the thermal pad will amount to much more than a tiny spot on the outside of the enclosure, if at all. It's not going to drip on other gear, it just doesn't have that capacity. It's also not necessary to open the enclosure to clean the fluid. If you see it on the outside, simply wipe it away. There is a possibility you may never encounter it, too.

We *do* apologize for any inconvenience this may cause or have caused you. There's not really much more we can say, other than we used a thermal pad for heat dissipation instead of making the P12 Module larger and possibly non-rackable as an alternative, so we went with keeping things small. Hopefully this sheds some light on the situation.
SEQUENTIAL

Razmo

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 09:35:47 PM »
Alright... but one question more:

A user (on another forum) states that after having his P12 module in with you for servicing because of this, he was told to "open the P12 and clean it up" if this should happen again... is this something you would advise users to do? ... because that would void warranty as far as I know, so is that really a solution?

Also, while the substance is not harmful to electronics, what about a tabletop surface? Will it permanently stain a tabletop surface? I paid quite a bit for the studio furniture I have, that my P12 is resting on, and would hate to see it stained because of this fluid... any precausions I need to take to avoid something like that?
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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2015, 03:27:28 PM »
That's 5 questions ;)
It's up to you if you want to open your synth and clean it, based on the extent to which you wanted to clean things up so it's really your decision. Opening your synth alone will not void your warranty. We routinely instruct customers to perform basic maintenance and repairs on their instruments if it can be done without shipping the synth back and forth. Saves time and money on both sides.

Besides, that would be pretty terrible if we told you to open your synth and then said your warranty was void as a result. If you are interested in opening your synth for maintenance, please email our dedicated support channel and we will provide detailed instructions on the procedure.

Whether or not the fluid will stain a tabletop is probably largely dependent on the material of the tabletop in question. At the office, we have plastic, painted wood, wood veneer, and stained wood surfaces. Although we haven't left the fluid on any surfaces for an extended period of a few months (only overnight), it does not appear to immediately damage any of these surfaces. We imagine an untreated, raw/unstained wood surface is the most susceptible to absorption.

But, we'd also be surprised if enough fluid ever leaked to actually make its way all the way down to a tabletop. It appears to behave much like silicone grease. It is fairly viscous and does not travel very far, and it's a very small volume. That being said, if you do happen to see any fluid on the outside of the enclosure we do recommend wiping it off with a soft cloth, or a soft cloth with a small amount of isopropyl alcohol.
SEQUENTIAL

Shaw

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2015, 05:13:15 PM »
he was told to "open the P12 and clean it up" if this should happen again...

I would be pissed to no end if received that response.

Jeez...
"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa

Razmo

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 12:42:13 AM »
Well ... luckily I'm not afraid to open up stuff and clean, as I'm familiar with electronics on a hobby basis, but there are people here, that don't even dare to update their OS'es in fright something will go wrong... I hardly think those people would even consider opening the box to clean anything  ;D

Guess I'll just have to buy my P12 a diper then...  8)
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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 04:19:26 AM »
Guess I'll just have to buy my P12 a diper then...  8)

 ;D ;D ;D
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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 03:09:37 PM »
Well ... luckily I'm not afraid to open up stuff and clean, as I'm familiar with electronics on a hobby basis, but there are people here, that don't even dare to update their OS'es in fright something will go wrong... I hardly think those people would even consider opening the box to clean anything.

Actually, I've been inside my DSI synthesizers a number of times.  I've fixed a dead note, fixed a flashing light, swapped circuit boards, cleaned all the encoder housings with deoxit, and so on.  I've been happy to be able to work on these problems from home, with guidance from DSI.  If you consider all the gadgets and appliances we use in a day, minor repairs and maintenance are quite common.  I realize it's not ideal, but wiping an occasional drip seems paltry enough to me.  It certainly wouldn't keep me from buying an instrument.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 05:23:38 PM by Sacred Synthesis »
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dslsynth

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 05:01:08 PM »
Guess I'll just have to buy my P12 a diper then...  8)

Naaaa.... you just have to stop hugging it! :o :-X ::)
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Razmo

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2015, 03:57:07 AM »
Well ... luckily I'm not afraid to open up stuff and clean, as I'm familiar with electronics on a hobby basis, but there are people here, that don't even dare to update their OS'es in fright something will go wrong... I hardly think those people would even consider opening the box to clean anything.

Actually, I've been inside my DSI synthesizers a number of times.  I've fixed a dead note, fixed a flashing light, swapped circuit boards, cleaned all the encoder housings with deoxit, and so on.  I've been happy to be able to work on these problems from home, with guidance from DSI.  If you consider all the gadgets and appliances we use in a day, minor repairs are quite common.  I realize it's not ideal, but wiping an occasional drip seems paltry enough to me.  It certainly wouldn't keep me from buying an instrument.

But again... others might not want to do this themselves, so if DSI will provide free cleaning services, then I'm fine with that... and if warranty is void because of you doing this, it's just not acceptable in any way, unless DSI can guarantie that the warranti will not be void.
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Razmo

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2015, 03:59:07 AM »
Guess I'll just have to buy my P12 a diper then...  8)

Naaaa.... you just have to stop hugging it! :o :-X ::)

You HAVE to love your P12! ... this is a dilemma... if you don't, it'll "cry"... and if you do, it's "cry" too... loose-loose situation here  ;D
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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 11:51:13 AM »
But again... others might not want to do this themselves, so if DSI will provide free cleaning services, then I'm fine with that... and if warranty is void because of you doing this, it's just not acceptable in any way, unless DSI can guarantie that the warranti will not be void.

Not sure how we can be more clear; as a direct response to you, just a few posts up in this thread we've already stated we routinely instruct customers to open their instruments and that it *does not* void your warranty.

If you'd like to send your unit in for cleaning we're happy to oblige. Please contact our dedicated support channel whenever you're ready to start the process.
SEQUENTIAL

Razmo

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2015, 12:08:55 PM »
But again... others might not want to do this themselves, so if DSI will provide free cleaning services, then I'm fine with that... and if warranty is void because of you doing this, it's just not acceptable in any way, unless DSI can guarantie that the warranti will not be void.

Not sure how we can be more clear; as a direct response to you, just a few posts up in this thread we've already stated we routinely instruct customers to open their instruments and that it *does not* void your warranty.

If you'd like to send your unit in for cleaning we're happy to oblige. Please contact our dedicated support channel whenever you're ready to start the process.

It is definitely not "clear" because there are different warranty rules depending on what country you're from, so what may be applicable for the US, may not be in Denmark where I live and so on... I have three year warranty on my P12 here in Denmark... if the unit is not opened ofcourse... so exactly how would that work? ... will the service center in say, Thomann from where I bought mine say my warranty is gone, because I sent it to USA and had it opened, or will they perform the same cleaning procedure as you in the US?

I hope you can see, that it's not that obvious...
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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2015, 06:16:59 AM »
But again... others might not want to do this themselves, so if DSI will provide free cleaning services, then I'm fine with that... and if warranty is void because of you doing this, it's just not acceptable in any way, unless DSI can guarantie that the warranti will not be void.

Not sure how we can be more clear; as a direct response to you, just a few posts up in this thread we've already stated we routinely instruct customers to open their instruments and that it *does not* void your warranty.

If you'd like to send your unit in for cleaning we're happy to oblige. Please contact our dedicated support channel whenever you're ready to start the process.

It is definitely not "clear" because there are different warranty rules depending on what country you're from, so what may be applicable for the US, may not be in Denmark where I live and so on... I have three year warranty on my P12 here in Denmark... if the unit is not opened ofcourse... so exactly how would that work? ... will the service center in say, Thomann from where I bought mine say my warranty is gone, because I sent it to USA and had it opened, or will they perform the same cleaning procedure as you in the US?

I hope you can see, that it's not that obvious...

If you have in written form from the manufacturer that the unit can be opened without voiding the warranty you could argue that you have a pretty strong case in case the reseller consider it voided.

Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2015, 11:06:51 AM »
If you have in written form from the manufacturer that the unit can be opened without voiding the warranty you could argue that you have a pretty strong case in case the reseller consider it voided.

THIS.
Dealers interact with us when handling their warranty repairs, and warranty claims are directly authorized by us. This is a non-issue.
SEQUENTIAL

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2015, 10:55:31 AM »
I do not want to mess up the thread, but I am just curious, is such thermal pad used in Pro-2 or Prophet 12 keyboard?

Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2015, 10:59:42 AM »
Nope. The Prophet 12 Module is the only instrument in our line that utilizes a thermal pad.
SEQUENTIAL

Shaw

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Re: P12 modules, leaking fluids
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2015, 04:46:28 PM »
Nope. The Prophet 12 Module is the only instrument in our line that utilizes a thermal pad.

As a Pro 2 and Prophet 12 keyboard owner, I like that answer!

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"Classical musicians go to the conservatories, rock´n roll musicians go to the garages." --- Frank Zappa