Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X

Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« on: January 23, 2017, 04:38:03 PM »
Hi

First post here.
I'm having some strange issues with my P08 and Logic this evening.

The prophet is connected Midi In / Out to a Saffire 56 which is connected to my mac / Logic.

Logic is sending midi clock to various bits of gear and everything starts / stops correctly.

The Prophet is set to clock Midi In and correctly syncs to the BPM.

Now, my problems start after that.
I'm not sure whether I should be in Local On or Off?
I was running Off and have always done that with other synths but it seems temperamental. (Incorrect settings no doubt)

Also, not sure whether NRPN and CC should be off.

Now when a pattern is playing, with Local, NRPN and CC Off, I can't control parameters to change the sound.
When Local is On, NRPN off, it nearly works, but doesn't send midi date to record the parameter changes.
When Local and NRPN are On I could change parameters but each small movement would momentarily also change the clock tempo.

I think the biggest confusion is the changing of tempo.
Even changing the master volume changes the BPM. I watched the pattern locked at 120bpm drop to 112 when I turned the master volume pot down, then went back up again to 120 after the change.

It makes it impossible to work with a pattern and tweak sounds on the fly.

I really hope Im doing something wrong and this is a simple fix!!

Yours hopefully...
Mark

« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:41:32 PM by theelectricdisco »

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 02:27:58 AM »
Moinmoin Mark

I use the P'08 regularly with external clock in order to sync it live or at rehearsals. This is my live setup:

  • [clock pedal] MIDI out -> MIDI in [P'08] MIDI through -> MIDI in [other equipment to be synced (e.g. delay or modulation effets)]...
  • [P'08] MIDI out -> MIDI in [19" Expander]
  • [P'08] polychain out -> free for other MIDI equipment using P'08 MIDI out (as I do not use polychained DSI equipment)
My "try new things setup" is the same, but with a sequencer (I use an old KAWAI Q80) between clock-pedal and P'08:

  • [clock pedal] MIDI out -> MIDI in [Sequencer] MIDI out -> MIDI in [P'08] MIDI through -> MIDI in [other equipment to be synced]...
  • [P'08] MIDI out -> MIDI in [clock pedal] (MIDI out of clock pedal is connected to Sequencer's MIDI in as listed above)
As this may create "MIDI feedback" between Sequencer and P'08, I have to care for that and do that in my Sequencer's MIDI settings.
Regarding MIDI clock, however, this cannot be done, as MIDI clock is needed at the Sequencer's MIDI in! My clock pedal however is able to strip clock signals from its MIDI in and forward all other MIDI data - updated with its own MIDI clock - to its MIDI out. *)
In both setups P'08 clock setting is MIDI In/Out, in my "try new things setup" the Sequencer's clock setting of course is MIDI in.
As I use NRPNs because they do allow more than "normal CCs" for the P'08 - the P'08 is set to send and receive NRPNs (which the Sequencer accepts as regarding their MIDI commands they are just "special CCs").
P'08 Local Control is set to ON in both setups, as I want P'08 controls to react and record.

In both setups P'08 does not accept any tempo changes made by the local "BPM" or "Clock Divide" controls, due to P'08 MIDI-clock setting to MIDI In/Out. P'08 does not send own MIDI clock signals and the internal sequencer and arpeggiator as well as all LFOs synced to clock divisions only react on external clock.
All other Parameter changes by P'08 local controls, MIDI-Sequencer, or both do not change the BPM-setting of the setup, which stays under control of the clock-pedal and is given to P'08 directly (live setup) or via the MIDI-Sequencer ("try new things setup").

I do not use Logic as a Sequencer, so I don't have a clue how to set its parameters or how it reacts on CCs or NRPNs regarding its own clock/tempo. I am sure, however, that You can set it in a way, that it will never react on external MIDI-clock signals.

HTH

Martin

*) I do know why I recommend ploytec's 34oneII as MIDI clock pedal. i am in no way affiliated with them, and it costs quite a bit for a "simple" MIDI pedal, but it is worth every cent.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 02:50:52 AM by MartinM »

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 04:51:06 AM »
Morning Martin

Thanks so much for your reply.

I'll have to look into a clock pedal as an alternative solution.

Last night I managed to find a workaround by using Logic's built in arpeggiator to trigger patterns in the Prophet and was then able to record parameter changes without any problems.

I'm not sure if your midi feedback comment is perhaps part of the problem Im having..

I traced the issue back to a specific point.
I think..

If I set a trigger note in logic to fire off the prophet, in arpeggiator mode, or gated sequence, it locks in fairly solidly to Logics clock and plays fairly happily

The problems start when I tweak a paramater, and it seems that because it is already sending, receiving note on / off data with the pattern, when I tweak anything it resets the sound but can't do it quickly enough for the next note to play which sends it out of time?

When I'm just playing the synth normally, not as an arp or with gated sequence, the parameter changes seem ok, it's just when it's firing off a rapid pattern that the two sets of data (note and parameter change) get confused.

(When midi send / receive is off and I just record the parameter tweaks as audio it works fine)

"P'08 does not send own MIDI clock signals and the internal sequencer and arpeggiator as well as all LFOs synced to clock divisions only react on external clock."

Is there a specific setting I need to look at to apply the above behaviour?

Do you use midi clock In / Out because you're using the poly out?
I'm sure I tried that but it made no difference to the issues.

Can I ask separately (maybe related) what the benefit of a clock pedal is?
And how flexible would it be in relation to the rest of my setup?
I've got a couple of other synths, maschine, TR8, a linndrum, MS20..
Can it all be synced to the clock pedal?

« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 04:53:16 AM by theelectricdisco »

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2017, 05:05:22 AM »
Moinmoin Mark,

let me first correct a minor thing regarding my last post:
"Clock Divide" still works when P'08 is set to external MIDI clock, but "BPM" is out of effect.

If You set the P'08 as a MIDI clock slave (by setting MIDI clock to "MIDI In" in the global settings menu [P'08 user manual page 8]), it will stop generating and therefore neither care for nor send its internal MIDI clock signals.
If You set the P'08 MIDI clock setting to "MIDI In/Out", it will behave the same, but in addition "forward" the received MIDI clock signals to its MIDI out and Polychain outputs.
I do not know whether I completely understand what You are doing and where You change parameters, but hereafter assume, that You did set Your P'08 to "MIDI In" or "MIDI In/out".
Please bear in mind, that the latter may create a MIDI feedback, if You set Your Logic to accept external MIDI clock signals!

If You send note on commands or change parameters within Logic, these will of course influence the P'08:
  • every clock signal (change) sent by Logic will change the P'08 timing
  • every "note on" sent by Logic may newly trigger the P'08 sequencer, if You allow for it [P'08 user manual page 29, "Sequencer Trigger Modes"]
  • every "note on" sent by Logic may newly latch / add notes to the arpeggiator, if You allow for it [P'08 user manual page 31, "Arpeggiator"]
You should know, what Logic sends and how P'08 reacts on it, so
  • take time to experiment with "simple" commands, before You try complex command sequences and
  • try all MIDI parameters sent from Logic to P'08 individually before applying combinations, in order to learn, what is influenced by what and how.
There will surely be some kind of "MIDI command log" at the Logic side, where You can see, which MIDI commands are sent and/or rerceived by Logic. You will be able to investigate the behaviour of Your MIDI equipment by looking at these logs.
So set Logic and P'08 MIDI settings to Your needs and try to tweak parameters at the P'08 side:
Are there MIDI-clock commands received by Logic from P'08?
If so and P'08 MIDI clock setting is set to "MIDI In", there is definitely a fault at the P08 side. Honestly I consider this as very unlikely, but who knows...

Quote
Is there a specific setting I need to look at to apply the above behaviour?
Nothing except P'08 MIDI clock set to "MIDI/IN" or "MIDI IN/Out" as described above
Quote
Do you use midi clock In / Out because you're using the poly out?
I only use Polychain output as an extra MIDI out [P'08 user manual page 7] and want to have the external clock not only for P'08 and those MIDI-devices connected to P'08 MIDI through, but also for those connected to P'08 MIDI out (and Polychain, which is a second MIDI out). The reason for this wish / requirement will be found as answer to Your next question:
Quote
Can I ask separately (maybe related) what the benefit of a clock pedal is?
And how flexible would it be in relation to the rest of my setup?
I've got a couple of other synths, maschine, TR8, a linndrum, MS20..
Can it all be synced to the clock pedal?
For me the main benefit of MIDI clock pedal is the classical "tap tempo application":
I can adjust all preprogrammed tempos on the fly, which is very important for me as a live and combo player at rehearsals and on stage. When in studio there may be a "click", which also usually is available as MIDI clock, so I simply have to replace the clock pedal by this "general time signature"
If You want to sync MIDI tempo between all Your equipment (or even with equipment of Your bandmates, like e.g. echo rates of different player's instruments), You will distribute the MIDI clock signals to all relevant MIDI equipment. Just use the standard MIDI out and through facilities.
In Your case I can imagine a P'08 sequence, arpeggio, or filter sweep perfectly in time with the groove of Your linndrum or other equipment.
Whether all of Your equipment is able to receive (and react on!) MIDI clock will be stated in the regarding user manuals resp. their MIDI implementation charts.

HTH

Martin
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 05:10:14 AM by MartinM »

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 09:36:19 AM »
Hi Martin and thanks once again for your reply.

I got a response from DSI support and tried a couple of things they suggested but with no success.

I've sent them another update and will give it another bash tonight but worry now that it may be a fault with the prophet.

The summary at the moment is that I cannot have the prophet clocked to logic with an arpeggiator or gated sequence playing whilst simultaneously sending any parameter change data to logic without something overriding the tempo on the Prophet and sending it completely out of time.

I CAN record the parameter change as audio and keep the prophets arpeggiator / gated sequence locked to Logics tempo, but only when ALL midi parameter send options are turned off, which unfortunately is the opposite of what I'd like to do.

Anyway, if you have any last ideas then fire away.
I'll dig back into the manual again tonight and hope that the support guys get back to me again too.

Fingers crossed it's me being flakey and not the synth! :)

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 01:27:57 AM »
Moinmoin Mark,

did You set "MIDI Echo" (or whatever it is called) to OFF at the Logic-side?
(http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,1050.0.html)

Martin

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 02:20:19 AM »
Morning!

Moinmoin :)

No I hadn't tried the echo off yet.
I will do that this evening.

I spoke to a friend that had a P08 and he remembers a similar issue that required a bit of Logic shuffling to resolve.

Fingers crossed the echo nails it.

I found this thread explaining how to disable the echo
https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114689

and this comment gives me some hope that this might fix it...

"Some synths have a hard time sending out CC data while simultaneously receiving that exact same data back, especially when it's high resolution filter knob data, etc. It can cause some very whacky behaviour in some synths."


This thread seems to have a few midi thru (echo) solutions...
https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=126058&start=20

10am and the clock is ticking...  Today can't pass quickly enough!
Need to get home to try this out... :)

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 01:37:47 PM »
Nope.
No joy whatsoever.

As soon as I turn clock to Midi In it all just messes up.

The ONLY way it will work is to have Local On and Clock set to Internal.
Everything else just goes wrong.

One thing you mentioned Martin seems to be the opposite when I check it.
"Clock Divide" still works when P'08 is set to external MIDI clock, but "BPM" is out of effect.

What actually happens is the BPM matches (almost) Logic, but the clock just ignores it.
In fact, regardless of what I do, the clock setting stays at 120.

Maybe I've completely missed something here?

Couldn't figure Logic's Midi Echo / Thru either, or I did and it made no difference.
Tried all the suggestions in the linked posts and nothing had any effect on the problem whatsoever unfortunately.

Hey ho...

Thanks anyway!!

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2017, 12:59:08 AM »
Moinmnoin Mark,

Quote
The ONLY way it will work is to have Local On and Clock set to Internal.
Everything else just goes wrong.
This is the perfect setting for P'08 being alone (without any MIDI connection):
  • Local On enables direct internal connection of P'08 keys and controls to P'08 sound and modulation sources (no need of routing the information through its MIDI out back to its MIDI in)
  • Clock internal makes P'08 ignore external clock signals (from its MIDI in) and not send its internal clock signals (via its MIDI out)

Quote
One thing you mentioned Martin seems to be the opposite when I check it.
"Clock Divide" still works when P'08 is set to external MIDI clock, but "BPM" is out of effect.
I corrected this error in my 2nd post. This (Clock Divide reacts, BPM doesn't) is exactly the right behaviour if P'08 is synced by an external clock (via its MIDI in)

Quote
What actually happens is the BPM matches (almost) Logic, but the clock just ignores it.
In fact, regardless of what I do, the clock setting stays at 120.
This is exactly what P'08 has to do, if its MIDI clock setting in the global menu is set to "MIDI In" or "MIDI In/Out" and Your Logic's clock is set to 120.

Please make the following experiments:
  • Set Logic so that it  sends MIDI clock signals and start it
  • Set P'08 to MIDI In and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.
  • Keep Logic setting (still sending MIDI clock signals) and start it
  • Set P'08 to Internal and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.
  • Keep Logic setting (still sending MIDI clock signals) and start it
  • Set P'08 to MIDI In/Out and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.

Martin

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 02:58:18 AM »
Thanks again Martin

I'll try all those scenarios as soon as I get home tonight and report back.

I did a quick recording to send over to the DSI support to clearly illustrate the problem.
Not sure if this sheds any light on whats happening.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8sCOS6SV3GneTFNY3FkOHA3aVE

It looks like all parameter changes simply override the clock setting when it is set to Midi In.
When it's internal it's fine.

I'll report back on the other scenarios tonight.

Have a great day!!

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2017, 02:08:26 PM »
Set Logic so that it  sends MIDI clock signals and start it
Set P'08 to MIDI In and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.


I did this and set the prophet to a gated sequence.
It started, and the bpm almost matched, but it fluctuated wildly and as I couldn't interact with the parameters at all.


Keep Logic setting (still sending MIDI clock signals) and start it
Set P'08 to Internal and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.


BPM synced to the internal clock not Logics
Still fluctuated when logic channel set to record and I try interacting with the parameters.

Keep Logic setting (still sending MIDI clock signals) and start it
Set P'08 to MIDI In/Out and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.

Reacts to Logic, but the BPM wildly fluctuates. Changed by 50bpm at one point.

Everything seems marginally better when I disable record on the logic channel and set to Local ON.

As soon as I record though, it just goes wild again.


I've tried turning off Midi Thru / Echo but can't seem to figure it out. Or I have done and it makes no difference!

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2017, 02:01:15 AM »
Moinmoin,

"1st experiment"
Set Logic so that it  sends MIDI clock signals and start it
Set P'08 to MIDI In and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.

Quote
I did this and set the prophet to a gated sequence.
It started, and the bpm almost matched,
This is what You should expect: P'08 is synced by Logic
Quote
but it fluctuated wildly and as I couldn't interact with the parameters at all.
not enough information to help You
Logic MIDI echo on or off?
Logic MIDI clock/Metronome on or off?
What fluctuated? BPM? Other things?
What didn't interact with what?
If P'08 BPM knob is "dead", this is exactly what You want: There may be only be one MIDI clock master ("Highlander Principle" is valid here...)

2nd "experiment"
Keep Logic setting (still sending MIDI clock signals) and start it
Set P'08 to Internal and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.

Quote
BPM synced to the internal clock not Logics
Correct behaviour. Together with 1st experiment (P'08 BPM ~ Logic BPM with P'08 set to MIDI In) we must assume that the P'08 MIDI clock settings work as they should
Quote
Still fluctuated when logic channel set to record and I try interacting with the parameters.
not enough information to help You
Logic MIDI echo on or off?
What fluctuated?
What parameters (all or certain: timing (BPM, LFOs, ADSR) or also VCO and VCF parameters)?

3rd "experiment"
Keep Logic setting (still sending MIDI clock signals) and start it
Set P'08 to MIDI In/Out and try if BPM at P'08 reacts. Tell me the result.

Reacts to Logic,[/quote]
OK so far
Quote
but the BPM wildly fluctuates. Changed by 50bpm at one point.
not enough information to help You
What actions (by Logic or manually at P'08) made what fluctuate?
What parameters were changed where?

Quote
I've tried turning off Midi Thru / Echo but can't seem to figure it out. Or I have done and it makes no difference!
MIDI Thru and MIDI echo are not the same!
MIDI echo affects the MIDI out plug, not MIDI Thru!

Quote
Everything seems marginally better when I disable record on the logic channel and set to Local ON.
As soon as I record though, it just goes wild again.
This is strong evidence that MIDI echo causes or at least is a big part of Your problem.
Please read some MIDI primer (In, Out, Thru, clock) and understand, what Logic does and how.
Do not try to proceed, until You are pretty sure, that Logic is set this way! If You want to use Logic, You will have to learn anyway...
  • MIDI echo OFF
  • MIDI clock out (Logic will be master clock)
Then set P'08 to
  • MIDI clock In
  • Local On
  • MIDI parameters CC (for safety)
If this works and You need the flexibility of NRPNs (You will know the difference if You need it), set MIDI parameters to NRPN at the P'08.

Martin

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2017, 02:30:02 AM »
Morning,
Just wanted to check in re. this issue.

I'd been around the houses and tried everything to get it running properly and was at my whits end.
Then randomly while I was rerouting my gear I ended up sending clock via a different port and whammo..  everything seems (touch wood) ok now!

It appears that there is a known bug with clock drift going via the saffire 56 / firewire / thunderbolt
Anyway, I've routed out of the midi Thru on my Maschine and everything seems perfect!

I'll keep on digging deeper in case there are still any bugs but so far it seems that it wasn't a routing / software problem but just a technical flaw!

Thanks for all the feedback though. Much appreciated!

Re: Problems syncing and locking arpeggiator with logic X
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 12:25:02 AM »
Moinmoin,

Oh ich Hornochse (no easy translation for that, it does compare me to a big animal with horns, that lost its balls by castration  ;)):
I did not think about the connection itself, as I only use "classical MIDI connections"...

It's good that Your problem is solved, it's even better that You spread the solution.

Martin