I have no numbers, so it's hard to estimate whether it would make sense to keep the Prophet '08 around for another year or two.
I have no numbers, so it's hard to estimate whether it would make sense to keep the Prophet '08 around for another year or two.
The only thing I'm sure of is that each time I've questioned DSI about the Prophet '08's future, I've been told the instrument is still a big seller. Although the Deepmind 12 may somewhat affect this, I doubt it will be a Prophet '08 killer.
now have a company like Behringer apparently having a huge success with a 12-voice DCO synth - even before it's been delivered to the numerous buyers who pre-ordered one
Either way, I wouldn't underestimate the impact of Behringer here.
now have a company like Behringer apparently having a huge success with a 12-voice DCO synth - even before it's been delivered to the numerous buyers who pre-ordered one
snickers
Either way, I wouldn't underestimate the impact of Behringer here.
Aw, c'mon now. I'm trying to be optimistic with a bad situation. ;D
My last resort is Dave's personal philosophy of making whatever he wants to make. Fun, fun, fun. Hopefully, that will work in favor of us Prophet '08 fans.
Seriously, though, don't underestimate the importance to many musicians of the extra keyboard octave. It's important all by itself, but especially regarding a feature like keyboard split. A split four-octave keyboard is an unnaturally crowded space for making good music. One more octave makes an immense difference. Based on what I've read on the forums, there are quite a few keyboardists who are real tired of the 49-note craze. Four-octaves may suit a mono synth, or even a poly synth of limited voices, but a 12-voice poly? Some one over at Behringer got a bad ice cube.
I do hope Dave Smith does not go the cheap route.
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.
I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.
I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.
A bit O/T perhaps but Doepfer actually only used the old stock of CEM3340's and discontinued that oscillator before the new production began. Don't know if they have taken up production again though.
Afaik Curtis decided to revive the 3340's in part because another company were trying to acquire the rights if I recall correctly.
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.
I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.
A bit O/T perhaps but Doepfer actually only used the old stock of CEM3340's and discontinued that oscillator before the new production began. Don't know if they have taken up production again though.
Afaik Curtis decided to revive the 3340's in part because another company were trying to acquire the rights if I recall correctly.
No, Doepfer was actually pushing for the new production. Here's why: http://www.doepfer.de/A1112.htm (http://www.doepfer.de/A1112.htm)
To move on to DSI, I'm not sure what could follow at this point. It seems that Dave might have abandoned the current DCO line and I'd be surprised if he continues to use it at this point. Also it will be interesting to see if Dave will use the new CEM3340 VCO in a future product (as you may or may not be aware of Curtis have decided to manufacture the CEM3340 again). Sadly I'm in doubt if we'll ever see a product of the same price/performance as the Prophet 08 again, I do hope I'm wrong though.
I though about the CEM3340s too. So far I think only Doepfer uses a bunch of them. Not sure about DSI. It was stated earlier this year that they've not been involved in pushing forward the current production.
A bit O/T perhaps but Doepfer actually only used the old stock of CEM3340's and discontinued that oscillator before the new production began. Don't know if they have taken up production again though.
Afaik Curtis decided to revive the 3340's in part because another company were trying to acquire the rights if I recall correctly.
No, Doepfer was actually pushing for the new production. Here's why: http://www.doepfer.de/A1112.htm (http://www.doepfer.de/A1112.htm)
Ah, cool. I didn't know that.
Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.
That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming.
Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.
Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.
"That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming."
Really? I missed that comment. What exactly was said - just that DSI would not produce an all-digital instrument?
The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.
However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.
Anyhow. Like I said earlier, I wonder if Dave has considered something completely digital with regards to the Prophet 12/Pro 2, and now the digital filter featured in the feedback module.
"That has already been denied by DSI on here. So no fully digital synth coming."
Really? I missed that comment. What exactly was said - just that DSI would not produce an all-digital instrument?
Over here: http://forum.davesmithinstruments.com/index.php/topic,536.0.html
Quote: "Nothing like that is on the horizon, but with any of our digital effects if we're going to take the time to develop them we might as well design them well enough to use in other applications. Who knows what we'll think of down the road; it's nice to have a large toolbox to draw from."
The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.
However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.
Right, which seems to relate it back to its Juno 106 origins. These shortcomings put the Prophet '08 ahead of the Deepmind 12 by a mile. There's just no comparing the two instruments. The P'08 stands firmly in the classic Dave Smith analog poly synth tradition; the Deepmind 12 is more of an interesting oddity that can make great sounds but lacks fundamental features.
The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.
However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.
Right, which seems to relate it back to its Juno 106 origins. These shortcomings put the Prophet '08 ahead of the Deepmind 12 by a mile. There's just no comparing the two instruments. The P'08 stands firmly in the classic Dave Smith analog poly synth tradition; the Deepmind 12 is more of an interesting oddity that can make great sounds but lacks fundamental features.
I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.
The Deep Mind 12 does have various unison modes, including dual, which is a form of layering.
However I agree that the choice of only having a strange PWM on the second oscillator is a bit strange. In fact I believe that the second OSC is basically a suped up Sub Oct more or less.
Right, which seems to relate it back to its Juno 106 origins. These shortcomings put the Prophet '08 ahead of the Deepmind 12 by a mile. There's just no comparing the two instruments. The P'08 stands firmly in the classic Dave Smith analog poly synth tradition; the Deepmind 12 is more of an interesting oddity that can make great sounds but lacks fundamental features.
I'm sure that view will change in the coming weeks; not yours necessarily, but the one of the many potential buyers. I assume there are going to be dozens of reviews, which will cover lots of the PR work for Behringer. You can be certain that everyone from SonicState to Marc Doty will stream something about it (well, the SonicState review is actually upcoming). Also: No matter how you look at it: the DM12 is filled with numerous features and people will be really attracted to it due to its price already. It's certainly going to change something.
I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.
Would be quite cool with a VCO based 8 voice with the filter section from the Pro 2, and layer/split, etc. It wouldn't be cheap though. :)
I agree with most of what you've said, but I'm skeptical that the Deepmind 12 will have a drastic effect on the synth universe. It will put so much within reach of those with less cash, and that alone could result in major sales, which will have some effect on DSI sales. But I don't think it will substantially fill the DSI position. Again, the Deepmind 12 strikes me as an interesting, but a handicapped, instrument.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I'm skeptical that the Deepmind 12 will have a drastic effect on the synth universe. It will put so much within reach of those with less cash, and that alone could result in major sales, which will have some effect on DSI sales. But I don't think it will substantially fill the DSI position. Again, the Deepmind 12 strikes me as an interesting, but a handicapped, instrument.
Oh, I didn't mean that it could affect DSI on a larger scale, but maybe the sales of the Prophet '08. I agree that both are not fully comparable, but there's the novelty aspect and then the price, which I suspect will draw lots of peoples' attention towards it.
And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08. That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode. I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard. Bull's eye!
I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.
Would be quite cool with a VCO based 8 voice with the filter section from the Pro 2, and layer/split, etc. It wouldn't be cheap though. :)
I would certainly expect to see at least a prototype at NAMM this year.
And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08. That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode. I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard. Bull's eye!
I wonder if we'll see a new instrument already at WNAMM'17. Really curious what it will be.
Would be quite cool with a VCO based 8 voice with the filter section from the Pro 2, and layer/split, etc. It wouldn't be cheap though. :)
I would certainly expect to see at least a prototype at NAMM this year.
And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08. That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode. I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard. Bull's eye!
I'm pretty sure there's going to be an announcement at Winter NAMM. I don't believe it's going to be a duotimbral VCO-based 8 voice with the Pro 2's filter section. For some reason that seems to be too redundant, as it would basically be a product made up of recycled elements only that have been released in some other shape or form since summer 2014.
On the other hand, one could argue that it's exactly what they did with the synth on a chip products:
Prophet 08 - MoPho - Tetra - MoPho Keyboard - MoPho X4. :)
And that is just the sort of instrument I would imagine replacing the Prophet '08. That's precisely what I optimistically had in mind, Exode. I'd love to see a P-6 morphed into a P'08, making an eight-voice instrument with VCOs, onboard effects, split and layer, polymod, and a full-sized keyboard. Bull's eye!
Yeah, that would be great!
I also sincerely hope that if they make a new synth it will have more than one LFO. My biggest gripe with both the Prophet 6 and the OB 6 is the single LFO.
On the other hand, one could argue that it's exactly what they did with the synth on a chip products:
Prophet 08 - MoPho - Tetra - MoPho Keyboard - MoPho X4. :)
That is true. But with the last couple of years' focus on the Prophet 12/Pro 2 and the Prophet-6/OB-6, I would expect something that doesn't continue either of those lines. If I were Dave, I couldn't imagine anything less exciting after the past couple of years. But then, I am not Dave, so maybe you'll be lucky. Either way, I've never found it that hard to predict where DSI would go next.
The only thing I'm sure of is that each time I've questioned DSI about the Prophet '08's future, I've been told the instrument is still a big seller. Although the Deepmind 12 may somewhat affect this, I doubt it will be a Prophet '08 killer.
There's one element that hasn't been appreciated enough in our discussions, and Jdt9517 just hinted at it: the unique sonic character of the Prophet '08. I think the P'08 has somewhat suffered from its beginning as being merely the portion that was extracted from the Poly Evolver. From the start, it was conceived as only the analog portion of the PEK, and not as a unique instrument in its own right with its own voice. This image has stuck to it. Regardless, the P'08 is often viewed as a compromised instrument or one that falls short of all sorts of marks. It falls short of the Prophet 5 mark, the Prophet 600 mark, the Poly Evolver mark, and now even the Prophet-6 mark. It falls short also of the analog mark, because its oscillators are digitally controlled and therefore sound thin! Honestly, I can't think of another synthesizer about which I've read more online criticism. If you want to attract some, simply post a compliment about it under some one's P'08 video, and the critics will come out of the woodwork soon enough. It baffles my mind.
A bigger potential threat imho is if Korg does a bigger brother to the Minilogue.
The trouble with such a synth is that you'd have to do an entire new development cycle with a new MCU but you get relatively few features for the time you put into it. It would also be quite a bit more expensive than the P '08. Anyway, loving the P '08 just as it is.
There's one element that hasn't been appreciated enough in our discussions, and Jdt9517 just hinted at it: the unique sonic character of the Prophet '08. I think the P'08 has somewhat suffered from its beginning as being merely the portion that was extracted from the Poly Evolver. From the start, it was conceived as only the analog portion of the PEK, and not as a unique instrument in its own right with its own voice. This image has stuck to it. Regardless, the P'08 is often viewed as a compromised instrument or one that falls short of all sorts of marks. It falls short of the Prophet 5 mark, the Prophet 600 mark, the Poly Evolver mark, and now even the Prophet-6 mark. It falls short also of the analog mark, because its oscillators are digitally controlled and therefore sound thin! Honestly, I can't think of another synthesizer about which I've read more online criticism. If you want to attract some, simply post a compliment about it under some one's P'08 video, and the critics will come out of the woodwork soon enough. It baffles my mind.
That's not quite accurate though, or only if you focus on the negative comments that tend to be louder most of the times, which makes them stand out more I guess.
Of course I'm not implying that other synthesizers - that all synthesizers - do not receive their share of criticism. Nor am I denying that many have highly praised the Prophet '08. I'm quite familiar with both sides of the issue. But I am saying that the Prophet '08 has received a remarkable amount of criticism, and so much of it is based on comparisons. So, too, did the Voyager versus the Model D, and the Prophet '08 situation has been similar. But the Prophet '08 had an odd sort of origin, in that it was extracted from another instrument. That led to a rough start in itself, but the instrument also had to carry the weight of being the first modern Prophet synthesizer coming from the hands of the Prophet synthesizer-maker, Dave Smith. That made its circumstances unique, and it has resulted in a stubborn tendency among synthesists towards judgment by comparison that has unusually failed to judge the instrument as a unique and brilliant synthesizer in its own right. Yes, it happens all the time, but my point is that the P'08 has had an unusually large share of it.
Somehow it seems unlikely at the same time that Korg will do something more premium than the Minilogue. At least not something with full keys. :D
I wonder if Moog will do a Poly. I've heard such rumors in the past from fairly reliable sources but it remains to be seen. I guess a lot of that speculation came from Mike Adams visit at Dave Smith Instruments last year.
The design that Dave did for the Prophet 6 seem excellent as a base for a polyphonic Moog imho. Imagine similarly to the OB-6, a polyphonic synth with Moog voice cards based on i.e. the Sub Phatty voice or something along those lines.
Moog has both in-house analog design + manufacturing capabilities, but far less digital electronics expertise than DSI.
Also, the Taurus III, the Minitaur, the Sub Phatty, and the Sub 37 all have digital envelopes and LFO(s), which is why Amos could add features such as the looping envelopes etc to the firmware of the Sub Phatty. So Moog does have some knowledge about digital control at any rate. :)Fair enough. And I would certainly agree that their collective, high-level application software expertise certainly exceeds that of DSI in its current incarnation, to be fair - the Moog editors, as well as the iOS apps, are in fact quite good.
Moinmoin,
I see the P'08 in a tradition: As on the P5 - the first synthesizer with a useable memory function - every single parameter is instantly controlled by a "dedicated knob". When the P'08 came out, it was - at least to my knowledge - the only synth with this feature. This is what I looked for and this is why I still love it.
Even if You concider me as being strange, the sound itself just comes on top. I read John Medeskis answer to a question about the difference between a real Hammond and good clones. He said that today's clones are so good, that even skilled listeners to a CD probably will not realize the difference any more. The musician playing it, however, surely does and thus will be influenced in his playing.
For me, this property of an instrument is far more important than e.g. the sound of the pure sawtooth, that is seldom used at least by me.
Whatever DSI will bring next: I hope they will not follow those people who "prefer instant gratification". Even if they are a majority, as Paul Dither assumed with good reason, a comparably small and specialized company will probably not feed the mainstream successfully and sustainably, so this may not be good for DSI.
My personal wish is, that they will stick to their "decent knobs"-philosopy, as I like to spend time and engage myself with my instruments and tools. Whether pure analog or a little bit more digital: It should be something with as much flexibility of modules a live-useable instrument allows, wherever this compromise will exactly be. The sound in practice then will be my responsibility...
Martin
And with regard to the DeepMind 12: I personally don't like Behringer for reasons of business ethics and find the obtruding way in which Uli Berhinger himself tries to snow his prospective disciples rather awkward, which rather makes me feel ashamed for him. And the synth itself looks to me like a Woolworth or a Walmart keyboard.
For me, this property of an instrument is far more important than e.g. the sound of the pure sawtooth, that is seldom used at least by me.
The perception of marketing - and giving a synth a name is already marketing - plays a huge role inasmuch as it creates expectations, especially if a product is released whose name is based on products that used to carry the same name. With the Prophet name things have always been a bit inconsistent of course, since it never indicated any specific type of engine and has been used for very different instruments: analog polys, samplers, and hybrids. But maybe the perception of the Prophet '08 would have been a tad different if it didn't carry that tag.
simplicity and directness of designis the reason I prefer analog vs. digital equipment. I like to have an instant reaction on my action. I have yet to see fully digital equipment doing exactly that with every parameter and without having to access menus.
I don't remember to what extent the new CEM3340 has been discussed, but I wonder if a Prophet 08 mk2 could be slightly cheaper with 3340's vs the current (discrete?) design.As a Jupiter 6 owner, I would love to see a mk2 P'08 built from those oscillators, complete with cross-mod possibilities and the stacking of waveforms (as also found in the Prophet 5).
I think DSI would have to be interested in even adding ISO updates to the 08 as it is. There's room for improvement for sure.
I think DSI would have to be interested in even adding ISO updates to the 08 as it is. There's room for improvement for sure.
Do you mean firmware (OS) updates?
I'd actually like to see an "80's DCO mode" implemented. I.e. the option to have all oscillators on all voices run from the same clock, like the old DCO poly's in the 80's (i.e. Roland JX3P/JX8P, Kawai SX240, Akai AX80, iirc).
I said this before but I'd also like to see some detuning possible between the voices when in poly mode. Similar to how the unison has three detuning settings, I'd like them to be available for the poly mode as well.
The Prophet '08 has been released about 9 years ago. There's not going to be another firmware update again. The last feature that has been added was the arpeggiator latch mode and that was roughly 3 years ago.
I'm not going for a defeatist tone here, rather a reality check after which it's totally unrealistic to expect any new features to be added to the Prophet '08. The work on this synth is definitely done. There's nothing that makes it critical in use and there are no more bugs to fix. So you should all take it for what it is.
I think there was a big opportunity missed with the OB6...it could have combined the pure analog architecture of the Prophet 6 (with no menu diving) but with the split and layer possibilities of the P08 so that way it would stay closer to the OBXa. Instead we just got the Prophet 6 but with Oberheim guts.
I just think there's been next to no interest from the P08 online. DSI didn't even do a youtube introduction video to it, channels like Perfect Circuit Audio did demos of every other DSI synth except for the Prophet 08 and Mopho. There's been no updates to the OS. So I think Dave probably just wants to move on at this point as the P08 has sort of been left behind.
The Prophet '08 has been released about 9 years ago. There's not going to be another firmware update again. The last feature that has been added was the arpeggiator latch mode and that was roughly 3 years ago.
I'm not going for a defeatist tone here, rather a reality check after which it's totally unrealistic to expect any new features to be added to the Prophet '08. The work on this synth is definitely done. There's nothing that makes it critical in use and there are no more bugs to fix. So you should all take it for what it is.
That might very well be the case, but didn't they actually add osc restart on the Tetra (and possibly the MoPho series as well)? Regardless of the P'08's age it shouldn't be too difficult to add features that the other products based on the same lineage have. The latest Tetra OS beta was released in August and that is officially a discontinued product - The Prophet 08 isn't!
Is the glass half empty - or half full? :P
That might very well be the case, but didn't they actually add osc restart on the Tetra (and possibly the MoPho series as well)? Regardless of the P'08's age it shouldn't be too difficult to add features that the other products based on the same lineage have. The latest Tetra OS beta was released in August and that is officially a discontinued product - The Prophet 08 isn't!
The Prophet '08 has been released about 9 years ago. There's not going to be another firmware update again. The last feature that has been added was the arpeggiator latch mode and that was roughly 3 years ago.
I'm not going for a defeatist tone here, rather a reality check after which it's totally unrealistic to expect any new features to be added to the Prophet '08. The work on this synth is definitely done. There's nothing that makes it critical in use and there are no more bugs to fix. So you should all take it for what it is.
I have a feeling at Winter NAMM it won't even be a new synth at all.
I have a feeling at Winter NAMM it won't even be a new synth at all.
What do you mean - that DSI will be introducing at NAMM a device other than a keyboard instrument?
A Tempest-compatible voice expander, with multitimbral sample + DCO + filter architecture, including voice stealing and assignable outs
Since I would have guessed an all-digital instrument and we've been told that will definitely not be the case, I truly have no idea what DSI will be giving us next. But I'll be equally interested to see the size/length of it. I expect that DSI will continue the keyboard-module pairing of instruments, but will the keyboard versions resume the "normative" five-octave size? And will DSI ever surpass the Prophet 12? I'm hoping for two affirmatives. It would be fabulous to see them outdo themselves with a large-scale analog poly synth. Anything less has little interest to me. I haven't taken to the digital imitations of analog instruments these past few years. They've been interesting but disappointing in tonal quality. Plus, I'd love to see DSI offer Modal Electronics a little competition at more reasonable prices.
Perhaps it'll be a CS-6 based on the CS-60, or a Sub Six based on the Sub Phatty. ;)
Since I would have guessed an all-digital instrument and we've been told that will definitely not be the case, I truly have no idea what DSI will be giving us next. But I'll be equally interested to see the size/length of it. I expect that DSI will continue the keyboard-module pairing of instruments, but will the keyboard versions resume the "normative" five-octave size? And will DSI ever surpass the Prophet 12? I'm hoping for two affirmatives. It would be fabulous to see them outdo themselves with a large-scale analog poly synth. Anything less has little interest to me. I haven't taken to the digital imitations of analog instruments these past few years. They've been interesting but disappointing in tonal quality. Plus, I'd love to see DSI offer Modal Electronics a little competition at more reasonable prices.
This is the very theme of this thread, and the whole question continues to be intriguing, in part, because DSI tends to be unpredictable. I'd say "whimsical" is the word. I'd like to think that things will follow a logical course and the Prophet '08 will truly be replaced by a worthy successor, but with Dave, you just can't know. If the P'08 is retired and we have nothing to choose from but smaller analogs or bigger digitals, then some of us with aging instruments who would like to refresh their set ups will have a dilemma. I only hope the DCO or VCO full-sized stacking/layering poly synth makes a return to DSI. It's been a while.
But they won't do the "can do it all" synth, if that's what you mean by outdoing themselves. That has never been the philosophy. And the only serious competition for the 002 does already exist in the shape of the Prophet 12. They're not comparable with regard to sound nor features, and don't need to be, but they are the only exciting new poly hybrids out there.
I don't think the Prophet 12 will be replaced - or surpassed for that matter - anytime soon. It's still too young. And not that DSI are going to wait for it, but I always get the impression that the Prophet 12 and the Pro 2 are a bit under-appreciated and not fully understood by many yet. If that would be the case, people would stop comparing them to full analog synths.
Perhaps it'll be a CS-6 based on the CS-60, or a Sub Six based on the Sub Phatty. ;)
Theoretically they could, but they won't. Dave already answered that question in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiEBRT9IZ3E
But you can already stack or layer a Prophet-6 and a Prophet-6 module, an OB-6 and an OB-6 module, or a Prophet-6 and an OB-6.
As you know, Paul, I have no interest in the do-it-all type synthesizer. I'm only thinking of an enlarged Prophet '08 that would strike close to the Prophet 12 zone, at least in price. That's my main interest.
As for the Pro 2 and Prophet 12 being misunderstood - that may be the case with some folks, but there are others of us who simply are not satisfied with the sound. I don't think this requires an apology. It's not that we compare the P2 and P12 to full analog synths, but that they are unavoidable reference points or standards, due to the facts that they exist and are popular. We're trying to speak in terms other than vintage instruments.
But you can already stack or layer a Prophet-6 and a Prophet-6 module, an OB-6 and an OB-6 module, or a Prophet-6 and an OB-6.
No, it's not even close. You know that. The Prophet '08 is far superior in various ways. I could never get out of a P-6 keyboard-module pair what I can get out of a P'08 keyboard-module pair, and that's not even to get into the keyboard length issue. It's not even close, which is why I was contemplating a P-6 as a monophonic instrument - which would admittedly be absurd. I would admit that the P-6 has the superior analog sound and some other features as well, but for me, the advantages cannot compensate for the losses.
Perhaps it'll be a CS-6 based on the CS-60, or a Sub Six based on the Sub Phatty. ;)
Theoretically they could, but they won't. Dave already answered that question in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiEBRT9IZ3E
Yeah, I already figured that they wouldn't do a Moog at least. I wouldn't be surprised if Moog will offer something themselves eventually. :)
The Prophet '08 is far superior in various ways. I could never get out of a P-6 keyboard-module pair what I can get out of a P'08 keyboard-module pair, and that's not even to get into the keyboard length issue. It's not even close, which is why I was contemplating a P-6 as a monophonic instrument - which would admittedly be absurd. I would admit that the P-6 has the superior analog sound and some other features as well, but for me, the advantages cannot compensate for the losses.
So, to put it in modern terms, I would love to see an all-analog instrument the same size as the P12. I'd actually be quite happy with a four-DCO P'08 with a few additional features. That's all I'm hoping for these days.
As for the Prophet 12, I realize folks don't like to hear some of us say that it doesn't do analog well enough. But it's long been advertised as a bit of everything, and many owners claim that it sounds every bit as analog as the Prophet '08. I've read this a hundred times. So, the "misunderstanding" is understandable. My personal preference would have been that, if the P12 is digital, then let it be exceptional at digital; if it is analog, then let it be exceptional at analog. But it's a hybrid, so should we should the mixed results? Personally, I don't think so, since the Poly Evolver's analog side still sounds far preferable to my ears than does that of the the P12. And that's based on the available video demonstrations compared side by side.
Didn't the Prophet 12 even use the "synth on a chip" for the LPF and AMP? So the foundation for the DCO's are there, just not utilized?
My own disappointment with the omission of analog oscillators is partly because the Prophet 12 could have been a monstrous spiritual successor, or younger brother if you will, to the Poly Evolver.
As for the Prophet 12, I realize folks don't like to hear some of us say that it doesn't do analog well enough. But it's long been advertised as a bit of everything, and many owners claim that it sounds every bit as analog as the Prophet '08. I've read this a hundred times. So, the "misunderstanding" is understandable. My personal preference would have been that, if the P12 is digital, then let it be exceptional at digital; if it is analog, then let it be exceptional at analog. But it's a hybrid, so should we should the mixed results? Personally, I don't think so, since the Poly Evolver's analog side still sounds far preferable to my ears than does that of the the P12. And that's based on the available video demonstrations compared side by side.
Didn't the Prophet 12 even use the "synth on a chip" for the LPF and AMP? So the foundation for the DCO's are there, just not utilized?
My own disappointment with the omission of analog oscillators is partly because the Prophet 12 could have been a monstrous spiritual successor, or younger brother if you will, to the Poly Evolver.
I guess I need to qualify my statements. When I say the Prophet '08 is "superior" to the Prophet-6, I'm speaking specifically of my individual needs. As I've said before, I don't want to follow a synthesizer, I want to lead it. Meaning, I want to have a generous supply of synthesizer fundamentals so that, when I'm designing sounds and composing music, I'm provided with the tools that will fulfill the moment's musical needs. In such moments, I don't want to be experimenting with features in the hopes of stumbling across something interesting. No, I want to have a set of basic necessary tools by which I can bring to life what I can already hear in my mind. Simply, the Prophet '08 provides very well for this; the Prophet-6, in spite of its own various strengths, could not. Each instrument offers a particular set of tools, and that set belonging to the P'08 works best for me.
As for the Prophet 12, I realize folks don't like to hear some of us say that it doesn't do analog well enough. But it's long been advertised as a bit of everything, and many owners claim that it sounds every bit as analog as the Prophet '08. I've read this a hundred times. So, the "misunderstanding" is understandable. My personal preference would have been that, if the P12 is digital, then let it be exceptional at digital; if it is analog, then let it be exceptional at analog. But it's a hybrid, so should we should the mixed results? Personally, I don't think so, since the Poly Evolver's analog side still sounds far preferable to my ears than does that of the the P12. And that's based on the available video demonstrations compared side by side.
But the Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12 and not meant to be either a second Poly Evolver or a surrogate for the Prophet '08. Being a hybrid synth it doesn't indicate that it needs to sound exactly like any fully analog synth by definition. In fact, one could ask, why it should excel at analog sounds in the first place, because if it was meant to do so, it would have been released with the according oscillators anyway. So I couldn't even understand those who would be offended by those people who are saying that it doesn't sound analog enough.
Did I imagine this, or did Dave specify at some interview that they are working on another keyboard?
Did I imagine this, or did Dave specify at some interview that they are working on another keyboard?
You're right, I completely agree with you. The Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12, and not a this or a that. But if you'll trace the instrument from its first release - including the advertising - you'll find endless claims that it can sound just as analog as any other pure analog instrument, except, perhaps a Model D. That's a fact. Such claims were everywhere. You can find numerous videos that are supposed to prove that this is the case. In fact, a P12 demonstration appeared on YouTube only about a month ago making just this claim, and I believe it was even in the video title. My response after carefully listening to it was that it made one of the best cases as to why this is not the case! In other words, to my ears it sounded terrible.
Now, you and I will have to have a gentleman's disagreement on one thing - the claim that listening to online demonstrations cannot give you a reasonably accurate sense of an instrument's tonal character. I say, Oh yes it can (But, of course, I'm referring to high quality recordings, not those done with a cheap phone mic.). I have bought every instrument I've owned as of late on nothing other than YouTube videos. I haven't played a single instrument in a music store for decades. I can listen to many Prophet '08 videos and know for certain that it has just the sound I want. I can listen to Voyager videos, and then Model D videos, and tell there is a striking difference. True, it's not 100% accurate, but it's more than I need to assess an instrument. And so, I can listen to Prophet 12 demonstrations - and even more - I can listen to many of them repeatedly, and get a fairly accurate sense of the tone. Sure, trying one in a music store would certainly be helpful, but it's not necessary. Besides, I've looked and looked, in vain.
To show what a progressive, futuristic, moving-forward, up-to-speed, modernist sort of guy I am (:D), I'm more than ready to look towards a forthcoming instrument. I know very well what my musical needs are, and I'm not looking for a thrill from either a new or an old instrument; I'm simply trying to find the synthesizer that will best fulfill those needs.
You're right, I completely agree with you. The Prophet 12 is a Prophet 12, and not a this or a that. But if you'll trace the instrument from its first release - including the advertising - you'll find endless claims that it can sound just as analog as any other pure analog instrument, except, perhaps a Model D. That's a fact. Such claims were everywhere. You can find numerous videos that are supposed to prove that this is the case. In fact, a P12 demonstration appeared on YouTube only about a month ago making just this claim, and I believe it was even in the video title. My response after carefully listening to it was that it made one of the best cases as to why this is not the case! In other words, to my ears it sounded terrible.
But those claims are coming from users and not really from DSI. And fully I agree with all the rest. I think I even remember the video you're referring to. I thought it sounded nice, but not particularly analog in the sense of a classic type of sound. It reminded me a little bit of what can also be achieved on a Prophet '08 if one doesn't care about traditional analog sounds like strings or brass types. I know you're not only shooting for those either, I only name them as classic examples.
I believe you. As for the online examples I'd say yes and no. Of course you can get an immediate impression of the sonic character, without a doubt. I'm not questioning that. But, in most cases, I found it really helpful to be able to listen to an instrument in person, and also to interact with it, as I consider the overall ergonomic feel to be just as important. The latter aside, I have to say that every instrument sounded better to me in person: from the Evolver, the Prophet '08, the Pro 2 to the Prophet-6. In all cases, I've heard them before via YouTube or SoundCloud, but actually listening to them in person was so much better. I remember hitting the first note on the Prophet '08 thinking, "wow, this sounds really big." And I only made the decision to order a Pro 2 after I had a go at it in a shop, which also left a long lasting impression. I could expand that to non-DSI instruments as well. Even known authorities like the Minimoog and the Two Voice Pro sounded so much cooler in person, mainly for the earth shattering impact of their raw sound. There's just a different sense of physicality and plasticity you get out of that experience that doesn't translate well via a YouTube video or a SoundCloud file, be it high quality or not. I would compare it a bit to evaluating something outside of its natural habitat. To take an extreme example: Take a church choir and place it in a sound-absorbing room vs listening to it in an actual church with all the reverberation. It's the latter that gives you the chills.
To look on the sunny side: You have already found two of those instruments, which you absolutely master according to your musical needs. I'm serious about that: I don't know of anybody who's able to push the Evolver and the Prophet '08 into this kind of lush sounding territory that you are almost famous for by now. And I even mean that with regard to your organ-inspired sounds. If someone would have told me there's this guy who's capable of really great pipe organ sounds on synths, I would have probably yawned without having the opportunity of listening. But the way in which you've been able to emulate expressive and pleasing organ timbres on the Evolver and the Prophet still impresses me. And most importantly, one can quickly sense that those synths just seem to work for you and according to your unique goals. And that is basically why I was wondering about your concern with regard to the Prophet '08 or rather a possible follow-up instrument.
Thank you. Those are very kind words, coming from a synth-master like yourself. Now I regret disagreeing with you and I'll never ever do it again. ;D
As for your last sentence, it's due to the fact that I'm not quite there yet. I really do need another P'08 module or two to achieve what I have musically in mind. And I also need another Evolver Desktop, because the bass is not as outstanding as I want it to be. So, it's annoying when the few instruments I need are on the chopping block, yet again. It makes it all the more difficult to get to that musical plateau that takes several years of climbing to reach.
;)
As for your last sentence, it's due to the fact that I'm not quite there yet. I really do need another P'08 module or two to achieve what I have musically in mind. And I also need another Evolver Desktop, because the bass is not as outstanding as I want it to be. So, it's annoying when the few instruments I need are on the chopping block, yet again. It makes it all the more difficult to get to that musical plateau that takes several years of climbing to reach.
You're really working on the legend here. If you should really end up building the massive system you have in mind, I have to visit you at some point to hear that setup in person. ;)
I'm just slightly bewildered by the tone of mourning with regard to the Prophet '08. The synth is not dead or discontinued yet, and even if it would be discontinued in the nearest future, we all know that DSI wouldn't drop their support for it in case anything goes wrong with an individual unit.
I'll almost certainly take the next step and buy another Prophet '08 Module. I can get it brand new from DSI with the latest updates. So, I don't want this instrument to go out of production!
how much would the following be:
a combined P6-OB6; 61 key, bi-timbral (split/stacked). 10 voice. (Figured 12 is too ideal.)
--
Is that $4k? Is that possible?
how much would the following be:
a combined P6-OB6; 61 key, bi-timbral (split/stacked). 10 voice. (Figured 12 is too ideal.)
--
Is that $4k? Is that possible?
I honestly don't think so, but perhaps something like this:
8 Voices
2 VCO's + SUB
2 Filters, SSM LPF + SEM SVF
2 LFO's
61 key
bi-timbral (split/stack)
I'll almost certainly take the next step and buy another Prophet '08 Module. I can get it brand new from DSI with the latest updates. So, I don't want this instrument to go out of production!
Prices are down on them too. I see them on the net for about $1000 new (not B Stock). I got my P-12 Mod for $1299 new on Black Friday from a reputable shop. I becomes kind of hard to pass them up at that price.
I, too, have tried to warm to the Prophet-12's filter, but I just feel as if the DSP tone generation needs something a bit more organic than the Marion/DSI Curtis chip voice.
I realize these two videos are familiar to most of us, but I wanted to cite them as classic examples of YouTube videos that fairly well represent the sonic quality of an instrument. After listening to them a few times, I was irretrievably sold on the Prophet '08, probably from the opening note!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oS6J2sToZM&spfreload=5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCz0yR48b1o
Same here. I've always loved the purest rawest analog tone, but working with the Prophet '08 taught me to appreciate the strengths of the DCO. I would name them as 1) good quality analog tone, 2) no needed warm-up time, 3) perfect tuning stability, and 4) perfect oscillator-keyboard tracking. I would say the DCO makes for excellent polyphonic as well as monophonic uses, whereas the VCO is best for monophonic uses. That's why I was hoping to find the "perfect" VCO mono synth. Oh well.
The Prophet '08 has been called "thin-sounding" by many folks. I would qualify that and say, yes, it's thinner than a Model D or an Oberheim Two-Voice. But by no means is the standing statement accurate. It's just thin enough and just thick enough to be perfect for massive chord playing. I suppose sixteen Model Ds MIDI-ed together would be the very definition of gorgeous analog thickness, but I think in polyphonic uses it would be far too much of a good thing. To me, the Prophet '08 strikes a perfect balance.
So, Exode, what purchases do you have in mind? An OB-6?
How about a Prophet '08 Keyboard controlling an OB-6 Module? Are you salivating yet?
...since I have this great master keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch. :)
...since I have this great master keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch. :)
Hey, now!
You can't be throwing claims like this around without letting us know what it is! ;)
What it is, please?
...since I have this great master keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch. :)
Hey, now!
You can't be throwing claims like this around without letting us know what it is! ;)
What it is, please?
Will 2016 be the last year for the Prophet 08? Sweetwater doesn't list it anymore and also some European stores have removed it from their listing as well. Some stores (Musicians Friend, Gear4Music, Pro Audio Star to mention a few) that still carry it have dropped their price for the keyboard significantly.
Will 2016 be the last year for the Prophet 08? Sweetwater doesn't list it anymore and also some European stores have removed it from their listing as well. Some stores (Musicians Friend, Gear4Music, Pro Audio Star to mention a few) that still carry it have dropped their price for the keyboard significantly.
...since I have this great master keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch. :)
Hey, now!
You can't be throwing claims like this around without letting us know what it is! ;)
What it is, please?
Not sure what eXode is using, but Ensoniq TS-10s or SD-1s are relatively cheap these days and possess a poly aftertouch circuit that is both relatively maintainable as well as adjustable (the VFX-SD and older models may be a little less reliable in that respect). There are still quite a few out there, often supplied for hire within the film scoring industry to use with orchestral sample instrument libraries....
As there are no bubble key contacts to speak of*, it may very well be one of the most interesting (traditional) synthesizer keyboard actions, short of the ROLI; the keys are identical across Ensoniq models so there will always be a supply of spares.
* - uses continuous capacitive sensing by way of individual coils under each key location; the actual keys are similar to a Fatar TP-8S design ("dogleg", longer moment arm) with a small embedded plate attached to the underside of each key that provides the change in capacitance, proportional to distance.
(https://syntaur.com/images/4172-Lg.jpg)
(https://syntaur.com/images/K38W-Lg.jpg)
...since I have this great master keyboard with polyphonic aftertouch. :)
Hey, now!
You can't be throwing claims like this around without letting us know what it is! ;)
What it is, please?
Oh sorry. I found this second hand keyboard in my local synth shop several years ago, it's an ELKA MK55 Master controller keyboard. It has very nice features with poly and channel aftertouch as well as many different curves for velocity and aftertouch. There are features that I don't use myself but you can setup splits etc on it as well. I love the weight of the keys and the response of this keyboard.
Okay I'm going to predict a DCO-based instrument with a SHARC driving the DCOs with audio rate LFOs, and a LPF and HPF combination. The price will be higher than the '08 currently is. It will have all of the user interface improvements and the 16 modulation routes of the P12 but a full analog signal path. We will all have to own at least one.
We've discussed the new CEM's a couple of times already, but a user (oldcrow) on Muffwiggler, back when the news about the 3340G's came out, stated at the time that Dave Smith backed the re-issue of the CEM's. Of course I don't know where he got his information from but if it's true It would seem unlikely that DSI/Sequential wouldn't use them. You can find the post in this thread:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2249931
We've discussed the new CEM's a couple of times already, but a user (oldcrow) on Muffwiggler, back when the news about the 3340G's came out, stated at the time that Dave Smith backed the re-issue of the CEM's. Of course I don't know where he got his information from but if it's true It would seem unlikely that DSI/Sequential wouldn't use them. You can find the post in this thread:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2249931
Yeah, I guess that makes sense considering the previous discussion about the CEM's not being surface mount, and the fact that Dave seem to have a good thing going with his discrete VCO's.
It has been stated via Matrixsynth that DSI haven't been involved in the reissue. The according announcement even includes a quotation by DSI:
http://www.matrixsynth.com/2016/06/curtis-cem3340-vco-chips-re-issued.html
Dieter Doepfer was involved though.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense considering the previous discussion about the CEM's not being surface mount, and the fact that Dave seem to have a good thing going with his discrete VCO's.
But do you think that it would be discrete DCO's, and would discrete DCO's even make sense for DSI/Sequential?
I wonder if Moog will do a Poly. I've heard such rumors in the past from fairly reliable sources but it remains to be seen.
After all, a bi-timbral Prophet-6 or OB-6 can already be put together by anyone who can afford a keyboard and a module, two keyboards, or two modules. So everything that would be left as an add-on is/are a couple of more modulation slots, and I'm not sure if DSI would sacrifice a whole year of development for something that can essentially be had with other synths they've already released, in particular the Prophet 12 or the Pro 2.
And I am definitely convinced that the custom Marion/DSI Curtis IC is going away–it's just not cost-effective, compared to the discrete filter design(s)....
Regardless if it makes sense for them I would really like to see a Sequential Prophet-8:
61 note keyboard with velocity and aftertouch
Layer/Split
8 Voices
2 VCO's
1 SUB -1 OCT Square
1 CEM or SSM 4 Pole LPF
1 SEM 2 Pole SVF
- Alternatively a switchable 4 Pole/2 Pole LPF based on CEM or SSM
2 Envelope Generators (minimum)
2 LFO's (minimum), one global and one per voice
- Individual depth between i.e. Pitch, PW, and LPF
PolyMod section
2 Digital FX from the Prophet-6/OB-6
the only thing that could change my plan is the appearance of a truly worthy successor to the Prophet '08.
the only thing that could change my plan is the appearance of a truly worthy successor to the Prophet '08.
I am probably one of the few who does not want to see that. I am perfectly happy with the setup I have. But I know myself, and if something better comes along, it will probably sour my view of my rig and cause me to consider saving, selling, buying, reprogramming, etc... and probably not in that order.
The P'08 stock is clearly running out in the major music stores, so something is up.
I would only add a third LFO and a third envelope, but I realize you're probably trying to keep the price down.
If I remember correctly, everyone was pretty shocked when Dave announced the VCO-based P6.
Didn't he state that this was not going to happen?
It seems to me that Moog hit the nail on the head with the Model D re-issue. Vintage Model D's and P5's (etc.) are holding the value and commanding top dollar for a reason. The fact that the Model D re-issue is doing well should be a strong indicator that he could be successful in an ~$4,000 re-issue endeavor.
I would think that his next project would have to be either above or below the P6/OB6 price point/sound quality, right?
If I remember correctly, everyone was pretty shocked when Dave announced the VCO-based P6.
Didn't he state that this was not going to happen?
Yes, he did. I specifically remember Dave somewhat laughing about the "VCO crowd." That was his expression.
Sound quality is a very subjective matter,
I respect Sacred Synthesis' opinion, leading him to compare and judge "virgin" sawtooth sounds. For me however the overall sound, which is not only but to the same extent charctarized by filters, is of more importance....
I respect Sacred Synthesis' opinion, leading him to compare and judge "virgin" sawtooth sounds. For me however the overall sound, which is not only but to the same extent charctarized by filters, is of more importance....
I think we're in agreement on this. My sawtooth comment was in response to the popular claim that the characteristic "sound" of a synthesizer has only or primarily to do with the filters, and not the oscillators. On the old forum, one individual went so far as to say that we never hear an oscillator at all, but only a filter. His point was that all discussion about analog vs. digital oscillators was ridiculous, since we never hear either. If this is the case, then why do we have a waveform parameter? Then how can we distinguish a square from a sawtooth, regardless of the filter setting? If you open wide the cut off frequency or close it to just before the fundamental, even then you can distinguish one waveform from another.
My point, Martin, is that it's a matter of both/and - of both oscillators and filters that result in the characteristic sound of a particular synthesizer.
Honestly, I just don't believe that these variances are primarily due to oscillator pitch. The waveshapers are also part of the equation, though given a decent square wave from DSP / DCO / VCO, it all takes you back through the filters again....
What may "vintage" mean under this condition?
For me "vintage subtractive synthesizer" means a user interface allowing me to tweek all the classical parameters of such an animal. I do not want to search my way through menues and screens, handle mice, computer keypads or touchscreens. I need instant reaction, which analog circuitry certainly delivers.
DSI has confirmed it through an email. Both the Prophet '08 Keyboard and Module have been cancelled and the company is out of stock.
I believe the oscillators are of minor importance in the grand scheme of things, and by that I'm not speaking about DCO vs VCO but the actual shapes ...
Like I've mentioned before I used to have a modular system. At one point I pursued the Moog sound. I had three really nice classic oscillators, a ladder filter, and a good classic VCA as well but something was missing. Can you guess what the final piece of the puzzle was? :)
It's now a matter of scrambling to find Prophet '08's from online stores. They're still easy enough to find, but that won't be the case for long. I just checked and there are lots of them on Ebay, for those who are content with used instruments. But I'm sure those prices are about to jump up a bit with the news.
I don't know about the Mopho x4, but I would guess the same. DSI will tell you if you ask them. I'm disappointed that we don't get the news in advance here, not even we the moderators when we ask for it. It's exactly like the Poly Evolver all over again.
Now I have to figure out what I should do. I didn't want to make a hasty decision like this before seeing what DSI will be showing at NAMM. Bad timing!
DSI has confirmed it through an email. Both the Prophet '08 Keyboard and Module have been cancelled and the company is out of stock.
I believe the oscillators are of minor importance in the grand scheme of things, and by that I'm not speaking about DCO vs VCO but the actual shapes ...
Like I've mentioned before I used to have a modular system. At one point I pursued the Moog sound. I had three really nice classic oscillators, a ladder filter, and a good classic VCA as well but something was missing. Can you guess what the final piece of the puzzle was? :)
Yes, I think the DCO and VCO sound quite different, but the waves themselves have less importance.
Oh let me guess, was the final piece a Model D reissue? :D
The discontinuation of the Prophet '08 definitely marks the end of an era. I don't know this, but I would presume the Mopho x4 will be sharing the same fate soon enough. And with that, the classic sound and design of DSI's first generation of instruments, those designed when DSI was simply Dave Smith with a friend or two, will slide into the vintage pit. And that also means the DSI line up will include only one synthesizer with a five octave keyboard - the Prophet 12 - which will now be DSI's oldest instrument. It's hard to believe. Will it be the next to fall?
As for the keyboard length: That's basically related to ergonomics, voice count, and demand alike. In the case of the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 it's not like they had to make anything smaller to fit in a 4 octave keyboard. The front panel was filled, spaciously enough, and it happened to have the perfect width for that type of keyboard with which also the demand for more portable pro-instruments was met. But I wouldn't take that alone as a an indicator for the abandonment of 61 keys. The latter turn out to be particularly practical when you offer options like a split function, and a higher voice count in general. And as we all know, the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 are fairly basic in that regard. Not everyone might like the fact that the latter two come with 49 keys only, but with regard to the overall feature set (e.g. no bi-timbrality, 6 voices) it's not like this decision appears to be completely ridiculous and incomprehensible. So I'd stay positive about the future of the five octave keyboard.
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
As for the keyboard length: That's basically related to ergonomics, voice count, and demand alike. In the case of the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 it's not like they had to make anything smaller to fit in a 4 octave keyboard. The front panel was filled, spaciously enough, and it happened to have the perfect width for that type of keyboard with which also the demand for more portable pro-instruments was met. But I wouldn't take that alone as a an indicator for the abandonment of 61 keys. The latter turn out to be particularly practical when you offer options like a split function, and a higher voice count in general. And as we all know, the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 are fairly basic in that regard. Not everyone might like the fact that the latter two come with 49 keys only, but with regard to the overall feature set (e.g. no bi-timbrality, 6 voices) it's not like this decision appears to be completely ridiculous and incomprehensible. So I'd stay positive about the future of the five octave keyboard.
Regardless of all the reasons and logical explanations (and your explanations, Paul, are certainly logical), for some of us it's either 61 keys or nothing. I could cite perhaps 70 pieces from my YouTube channel that could not have been played on a 49-er.
As I've said, I'm fine with a variety of keyboard lengths. I even like mono synths with 44 keys. However, the 61-note keyboard is the norm for me and has to be, especially for those pieces that are played entirely on one instrument. And then there are played arpeggios, which quickly consume the octaves.
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
Problem solved. I just ordered a Prophet '08 Module from Pro Audio Star for $1,100. That's the best price I was able to find anywhere. Assuming all goes well with the order, this will greatly enhance my music potential. Now all I need is a larger mixer!
Problem solved. I just ordered a Prophet '08 Module from Pro Audio Star for $1,100. That's the best price I was able to find anywhere. Assuming all goes well with the order, this will greatly enhance my music potential. Now all I need is a larger mixer!
Congrats on the early Christmas prezzie! That's a really great deal. And just as a way to try to keep up: How many Prophet '08s are you going to have after its delivery?
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
Did you try Thomann?
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
Did you try Thomann?
Yeah, they say it is back in stock at the end of December. I'm not sure if I can believe that now!
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
Did you try Thomann?
Yeah, they say it is back in stock at the end of December. I'm not sure if I can believe that now!
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
Have you checked Gear4Music?
The only problem is that I'm now short one mixer channel.
The only problem is that I'm now short one mixer channel.
Congratulations! That will be sweet. I ran out of channels (thanks to you ;)) and recently got a SoundCraft EFX12, 12 channel mixer. You may want to look into them (or a larger one) as they use the same AudioDNA® processor featured in the Lexicon MX400 processor.
Oh, sorry about that, Jason. I'm shipping you one mixer channel through the mail. ;D
Anyway, meanwhile I'll be working on my next "Prophet '08 System" monster brass pad!
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
If you're still looking, Gear4Music apparently have 4 in stock:
http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM (http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM)
I expect the last ones will go quickly. There will be plenty available on the used market for years, but the new ones will go quickly, in part, due to the exceptionally low prices. Those who always wanted one will have no excuse now.
My sawtooth comment was in response to the popular claim that the characteristic "sound" of a synthesizer has only or primarily to do with the filters, and not the oscillators. On the old forum, one individual went so far as to say that we never hear an oscillator at all, but only a filter.
I expect the last ones will go quickly. There will be plenty available on the used market for years, but the new ones will go quickly, in part, due to the exceptionally low prices. Those who always wanted one will have no excuse now.
We can't always transfer experiences from one thing to another; but the Moog Little Phatty was discontinued in September 2013, and I bought mine brand new in December 2014, at just over half of the original price. Competition is fierce enough that you'll probably be able to get a new Prophet 08 for quite some time, and new prices will likely go down, not up, throughout 2017.
It's still pretty easy to get a new original Mopho Keyboard, although they're pretty expensive at this point.
The team is working on several other synth projects and one of them is to reengineer some of the original Curtis/SSM chips. We are currently considering to bring back some of the famous legacy synths - and all in the most authentic form.Source: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/990463-behringer-deepmind-12-a-10.html#post12309855
This is a bit OT, but as Behringer has been discussed earlier in this thread, I thought I bring it up here. Another reason is that in some of the currently published reviews of the DM12, the Prophet '08 is mentioned amongst the alternative synths that are being compared to the Behringer (I think beyond this forum no one really knows of the Prophet '08's discontinuation yet) as an 'obvious' contender, which makes not that much sense technically speaking, but only when it comes to certain price brackets.
Anyway, yesterday I found a Behringer quote that's about 2 weeks old saying this:QuoteThe team is working on several other synth projects and one of them is to reengineer some of the original Curtis/SSM chips. We are currently considering to bring back some of the famous legacy synths - and all in the most authentic form.Source: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/990463-behringer-deepmind-12-a-10.html#post12309855
Now, I'm not posting this because I'm so excited about it. But I was rather curious about your thoughts on that matter, especially since one of the "considered instruments" could obviously be the Prophet-5.
Now, I'm not posting this because I'm so excited about it. But I was rather curious about your thoughts on that matter, especially since one of the "considered instruments" could obviously be the Prophet-5.
It's certainly "interesting" from a commercial perspective*.
Setting aside my own bias toward paying for American-designed and -made instruments–if I was a touring professional, I'd be more inclined to carry a Music Group-designed and -manufactured instrument along for the ride IF it was branded independently, rather than with a Behringer logo on it.
Therein lies the rub: at a certain price point, I feel much better about spending my money to support smaller, specialist manufacturers that embody a commitment to improving the MI industry with innovative instruments and shared technology, rather than large volume-driven conglomerates whose primary role is to increase shareholder value and reduce manufacturing costs. If Uli B wants to set up a dedicated synthesizer division with its own branding, then that's a good place to start–the company would necessarily be judged on its own merits, and the sound of its instruments, rather than the notoriety of its corporate parent–even if it's just an illusion of an independent company.
* - Another side effect of this, however, is that it levels the playing field a bit: if DSI can continue to manufacture great-sounding keyboard instruments with analogue filters, and Korg can seemingly generate new Volcas from Petri dishes every six to twelve months, what is wrong with Roland and Yamaha? (Or are they respectfully forgoing this business segment to allow DSI to grow? :-X )
But, DSI Instruments in their last couple of releases HAVE dumbed down and reduced manufacturing costs by releasing a 49 keybed instrument (in homage to the Prophet 5 that had 61) then, use the exact same chassis to bring out an Oberheim that had to then have 49 keys and only allowed 6 voices as that was all the prophet 6 template allowed. DSI are already playing this game. Hopefully this was just a blip and they have a serious instrument up their sleeves for Namm.
Otherwise, Uli might bully his way to the top of the synth chain.
I think the 5 octave keyboard is really justified if the synth can do splits and layers. The Prophet 6 nor the OB6 have this capability. I'm hoping any new DSI synths have a 5 octave keyboard AND the ability to do splits and layers...otherwise it's just wasted real estate OR not enough real estate (The Roland JDXA having the ability to have multiple splits and layers on a four octave keyboard is a tad annoying)
In fact–most of the live "player" setups I see have at least one 73+ key MIDI keyboard controller somewhere, including this one: (http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/billy_currie_2012_09_30.jpg)
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
If you're still looking, Gear4Music apparently have 4 in stock:
http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM (http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM)
Thanks, they have two now.
Just a bit of "umming and ahhing" to be done here now...
Can't find one in stock in the UK.
Should have got one while I had the chance :(
If you're still looking, Gear4Music apparently have 4 in stock:
http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM (http://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Dave-Smith-Instruments-Prophet-08-PE-Synthesizer-Keyboard/BIM)
Thanks, they have two now.
Just a bit of "umming and ahhing" to be done here now...
I don't think that the appearance of synths with 49 keys has to be read as a writing on the wall for synths with 61 keys. In the case of the Prophet-6 and the OB-6 the absence of 12 further keys is not really that painful considering that they are both 6 voice synths that don't offer split or layering functions. Both would have also looked weird with a bigger keyboard, as DSI would have certainly not added any more functions just because of that. So one would have ended up with completely empty front panel areas to the left and the right. With regard to ergonomics and design, it was an economically reasonable decision to go for 49 keys.
As for Behringer:
What's certainly revealing about their plan is that they'd like to produce their own chips despite the recently reissued CEM 3340s. For cost reasons it's obviously smarter for them to keep it all under one roof, which has already been the strategy for the DM12. Nevertheless, I'm wondering whether we'd see any licensing claims on the horizon if (this is still highly speculative) they wanted to rebuilt certain classics.
Apart from that I'd say: let them get lost in retromania.
Honestly don't agree with you about ob6/prophet6 looking odd with 61 keys. In fact, what you describe is exactly how the prophet 08 looks with the same gaps each side.
You talk on behalf if DSi like you have some hand in these choices and give excuses as if you were part of the decision making team although you are not.
I can assure you that for the few years I worked with Billy Currie in Ultravox, he was not using soft synths with a controller and we had a truck full of gear. :-)
The portability angle goes out of the window too as you would need the 49 key synth and the controller. That is two keyboards and not one. When editing a synth, you want to do it from it's own keyboard and not a separate controller.
Why would anyone be reluctant to be given an extra octave to make the synth usable.
I will just have to slum it with my Prophet 08 and my OB8 (when it comes back from a service and rebuild). :-)
What I would really like to see is a 4 section, 5 octave synth similar to the ARP Quadra. A monophonic bass section, a duophonic section, a poly section and monophonic lead section. It would be nice to have an analog synth with more than two splits and the ability to have each section have it's own sequencer. If I'm not mistaken couldn't the Andromeda do this?The Waldorf Q could do this (four live zones for Inst 1-4, each with their own running sequence)...and it also had a multitimbral mode. The Ensoniq keyboards could also do this easily.
What I would really like to see is a 4 section, 5 octave synth similar to the ARP Quadra. A monophonic bass section, a duophonic section, a poly section and monophonic lead section. It would be nice to have an analog synth with more than two splits and the ability to have each section have it's own sequencer. If I'm not mistaken couldn't the Andromeda do this?The Waldorf Q could do this (four live zones for Inst 1-4, each with their own running sequence)...and it also had a multitimbral mode. The Ensoniq keyboards could also do this easily.
[…] The differences would be in the synth engine with analog oscillators + real noise generator circuit (not a sample) like that of the Prophet 08 with mix knob in the mixer section and possibility to use that noise generator as a high sample rate modulation source in the mod matrix. Also for this, the P08 noise source works much better than that of the P12. Nothing beats a high speed analog noise modulation source -> Butter.
I believe though that the Prophet '08 noise generator is just as digital as it was on the Prophet-5, OB-Xa, etc. Nevertheless, it's of course differently implemented compared to the Prophet 12, as it's based on a dedicated microprocessor and not part of a wavetable selection.I remember reading too that the noise generator of the Prophet 08 is indeed a digital circuit, but operates at really high clock compared to typical bandwidth limited modulation busses of synths, and results in noise that is similar to analog noise generators, but simpler in design. I do not know how DSI implemented the noise modulation source in the mod matrix of P08, but I believe it uses the noise generator output that is sampled at relatively high frequency, because it sounds much smoother than that of P12 noise, when using it as mod source for pitch or filter cutoff modulation. In the case of P12 it sounds very close to what a typical S&H mod source sounds, i.e. much creepier and quantized compared to what a high speed sampled or truly analog white noise modulation source does. Actually, who knows if DSI uses VCAs for the most critical osc pitch and filter cutoff modulation paths in P08 to get that smooth noise modulation to work? If I was to design a synthesizer, I sure would. Everything would be built around modulation. I would actually put the panel full of noise mod amount knobs in every section. I love noise. ;D
I remember reading too that the noise generator of the Prophet 08 is indeed a digital circuit, but operates at really high clock compared to typical bandwidth limited modulation busses of synths, and results in noise that is similar to analog noise generators, but simpler in design. I do not know how DSI implemented the noise modulation source in the mod matrix of P08, but I believe it uses the noise generator output that is sampled at relatively high frequency, because it sounds much smoother than that of P12 noise, when using it as mod source for pitch or filter cutoff modulation. In the case of P12 it sounds very close to what a typical S&H mod source sounds, i.e. much creepier and quantized compared to what a high speed sampled or truly analog white noise modulation source does. Actually, who knows if DSI uses VCAs for the most critical osc pitch and filter cutoff modulation paths in P08 to get that smooth noise modulation to work? If I was to design a synthesizer, I sure would. Everything would be built around modulation. I would actually put the panel full of noise mod amount knobs in every section. I love noise. ;DA synthesist after my own heart.;)
Noise as modulation source is the P'08's secret weapon and the one thing I'm completely unable to adequately replicate on other synths. The implementation of noise was my biggest disappointment with the P12. Not only did it always use up an oscillator, but it never made a smooth modulation source either. It's been a while but I remember getting some weird phasing issues too as each voice effectively had its own noise oscillator playing the same wave out of phase.I have also found that the noise in my other synths does not work as well as a modulation source, as it does in P'08. For some reason, also in Solaris the noise source sounds quantised when used as modulator, and I am very surprised about this because it is supposed to run at 96 kHz, such as all the rest of the signals in that synth. With most synths, the results of using noise as mod source are creepy, like you get with S&H. It is still usable at small amounts, but going to that buttery smooth almost real acoustic brassy sound of P'08 is difficult. I agree that programming P12 after P'08 needs getting used to, mainly because it does not have a dedicated noise generator. That is IMO the biggest drawback of the P12. You need to set one of the oscillators as noise and then it plays multiple times, if you play polyphonically. In the early firmwares, this caused phasing. I actually started the discussion on the old forum about the phasing issue, and after several dozen posts and sound examples, DSI agreed that there is an issue and they made a change in the P12 firmware, so that not all oscillators & notes trigger the noise in near same phase that caused the phasing. Now, there is much more randomness between the P12 noise oscillators triggered by different keys, so that the phasing is gone and sounds more like a single noise generator, but still eating up one oscillator per voice. I always have the osc 4 set as noise.
Would be interesting to know, whether DSI used the noise generator of the P'08 in Prophet 6 or OB6?
The noise source in those synths is as discreet as in the Prophet '08. However, that only is the audio noise source. The one with which you can modulate is based on the S+H waveform in the LFO section. You have to turn its frequency to the maximum value to get noise as a modulation source.I thought the noise mixed in well with the oscillators on the P6 but I found I rarely used it as a modulation source. Largely because it took away the only LFO and also because it was difficult to dial in tiny subtle amounts of it, which is most commonly how I use noise as modulation.
Oberheim OB-*:
- switched noise as audio input to filter
- sample & hold as modulation (LFO) waveform
- vibrato LFO (sine waveform?)
Have I missed anything here?
It's funny how those of you, who got upset about the Prophet '08 receiving bad rap are now giving the Prophet-6 bad rap. Why can't both instruments that were never meant to replace each other - and can't with regard to their different feature set - just be what they are for those who simply have different needs?
Sorry, Paul. As I've said several times before, the Prophet-6 is an excellent instrument as it is, but a second LFO would have transformed it. I mean, even the Minimoog reissue was given one. It's frustrating that the P-6 was not, nor the OB-6.
Talking about the 2nd oscillator and its FM capabilities: That's for example a feature you can't reproduce on the Prophet '08 or any DCO synth for that matter.
Right - the reissue has two LFO's for two oscillators. I thought that was a huge improvement over the original Minimoog.
Talking about the 2nd oscillator and its FM capabilities: That's for example a feature you can't reproduce on the Prophet '08 or any DCO synth for that matter.
Do you know how Roland did the JX3P/JX8P cross mod? Also the Hypersynth Xenophone, the Waldorf Pulse, and Pulse 2 offers cross mod as far as I know, also I believe the Elektron Analog Four added it in a FW update. Any idea how it's achieved on those instruments? :)
Right - the reissue has two LFO's for two oscillators. I thought that was a huge improvement over the original Minimoog.
No, the reissue has one LFO and one oscillator that's also capable of being a modulation source (not just a low frequency, but a full frequency range oscillator), exactly like the Prophet-6. The only difference with regard to those sections is that the Minimoog has one additional oscillator.
I've been looking a little at the BOSS CE-2W Chorus: https://www.boss.info/us/products/ce-2w/
Not cheap but initial reviews seem good. The standard mode (CE-2?) does mono to stereo as far as I can tell.
I am getting a Lexicon MX 200 for the reverb/chorus I want for live performance.
I've been looking a little at the BOSS CE-2W Chorus: https://www.boss.info/us/products/ce-2w/
Not cheap but initial reviews seem good. The standard mode (CE-2?) does mono to stereo as far as I can tell.
Back in the day, the CE-2 was pretty much standard equipment for gigging and recording with a P-05. It was kinda trashy sounding, but that's what gave the Prophet "that sound" - That and the original Ibanez Tube Screamer.
I am getting a Lexicon MX 200 for the reverb/chorus I want for live performance. Will probably find a Tube Screamer about the same time as the MX -200. Don't know what would sound good outside those gizmos.
I've been looking a little at the BOSS CE-2W Chorus: https://www.boss.info/us/products/ce-2w/
Not cheap but initial reviews seem good. The standard mode (CE-2?) does mono to stereo as far as I can tell.
Back in the day, the CE-2 was pretty much standard equipment for gigging and recording with a P-05. It was kinda trashy sounding, but that's what gave the Prophet "that sound" - That and the original Ibanez Tube Screamer.
I am getting a Lexicon MX 200 for the reverb/chorus I want for live performance. Will probably find a Tube Screamer about the same time as the MX -200. Don't know what would sound good outside those gizmos.
I'm also interested in the CE-2W. Has anyone used one? I picked up a Boss CE-3, which is a good cost effective alternative to get that Roland chorus sound. They go for about $70 and have 2 outs. Anyone use a Boss SE-70? They have a good rep as an expensive stereo box.
I use a Boss SE50 and Ensoniq DP4 at different times with my Prophet 08 and other gear which suits me very well.
The Boss SE50 has the stereo in , Stereo out but no true bypass if that is important!
I actually prefer my DP4 which has 4 ins and 4 outs with various configurations possible.
Anyway the Boss SE50 is a good workhorse!
Enjoy
I am getting a Lexicon MX 200 for the reverb/chorus I want for live performance.
I'm curious why you've chosen the MX 200 over the MX 300. I'd like to buy another Lexicon, too. I have the MX 300 and like it very much, but I prefer the interface of the MX 200. I'm on the fence about which one to get next, so I'm interested in your reasoning.
I use a Boss SE50 and Ensoniq DP4 at different times with my Prophet 08 and other gear which suits me very well.
The Boss SE50 has the stereo in , Stereo out but no true bypass if that is important!
I actually prefer my DP4 which has 4 ins and 4 outs with various configurations possible.
Anyway the Boss SE50 is a good workhorse!
Enjoy
The DP/4 is tough to beat: that Philips TDA1541A DAC makes everything it touches sound solid. Must add to list....
I've been looking a little at the BOSS CE-2W Chorus: https://www.boss.info/us/products/ce-2w/
Not cheap but initial reviews seem good. The standard mode (CE-2?) does mono to stereo as far as I can tell.
Back in the day, the CE-2 was pretty much standard equipment for gigging and recording with a P-05. It was kinda trashy sounding, but that's what gave the Prophet "that sound" - That and the original Ibanez Tube Screamer.
I am getting a Lexicon MX 200 for the reverb/chorus I want for live performance. Will probably find a Tube Screamer about the same time as the MX -200. Don't know what would sound good outside those gizmos.
I'm also interested in the CE-2W. Has anyone used one? I picked up a Boss CE-3, which is a good cost effective alternative to get that Roland chorus sound. They go for about $70 and have 2 outs. Anyone use a Boss SE-70? They have a good rep as an expensive stereo box.
Hi Yavn,
Not a Boss SE70 but the similar SE50.
I use a Boss SE50 and Ensoniq DP4 at different times with my Prophet 08 and other gear which suits me very well.
The Boss SE50 has the stereo in , Stereo out but no true bypass if that is important!
I actually prefer my DP4 which has 4 ins and 4 outs with various configurations possible.
Anyway the Boss SE50 is a good workhorse!
Enjoy
The serial # by the way is in the 6100's. I wonder if the modules have their own separate set of serial #'s or do they share?
The serial # by the way is in the 6100's. I wonder if the modules have their own separate set of serial #'s or do they share?
EDIT: Upon reading that shape mod works on all oscillators, I wonder if this works as on the Arturia Microbrute or Elektron Analog 4 in that on the Sawtooth you get layers of phase shifted Sawtooth waves creating almost a "Supersaw" type of sound.