The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: Paul Dither on October 13, 2015, 02:13:47 PM
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Today's history lesson: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWyFTiF8L22yoTR15rccFsNzGXTydQFXe (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWyFTiF8L22yoTR15rccFsNzGXTydQFXe)
I uploaded this playlist because I couldn't find these files anywhere else online. There used to be links to these files on the old forum but they don't work anymore. Also, I know that this is technically not "other hardware," except for purely historical reasons. Beyond that, there's not really a sub forum for vintage Sequential stuff.
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Those recordings are interesting, amusing, and historically valuable. They surprisingly made me appreciate even more the Prophet 08, which has a less raw and a more refined character.
I've often wondered if Dave Smith would ever produce again an instrument the size of the Prophet 10. Could the new Sequential brand provide the format? I wish.
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Those recordings are interesting, amusing, and historically valuable.
Indeed. Imagine a demo like that done today.
They surprisingly made me appreciate even more the Prophet 08, which has a less raw and a more refined character.
The audio quality is not superior. Unfortunately, I only have the files in MP3 format. But you're right, the sound is a bit harsh here and there.
I've often wondered if Dave Smith would ever produce again an instrument the size of a Prophet 10. Could the new Sequential be the format? I wish.
The equivalent to that would be a Prophet-12 (2x Prophet-6) - at least with regard to the name. So I guess the according name at least is out of the question. I also remember one Winter NAMM video in which Dave was asked, whether he'd do a follow-up of the Prophet-10 next. He only chuckled and said "no." I don't think it would make sense economically. Such an instrument would roughly cost about $5000. Let's not forget that only 600 Prophet-10s have been sold between 1980 and 1984 (well, actually not too bad for a $8790 instrument). Plus: The trend rather seems to be that things get smaller or at least more portable.
Be it a 61 keys instrument or a mono synth under the banner Sequential: They need to find a good functional reason to introduce such instruments without cannibalizing their other products that could be too similar in some regard.
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I guess I can be content with two Prophet '08s!
Sure. That's already a Prophet-16 anyway.
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I guess I can be content with two Prophet '08s!
Regarding the Sequential line, I'd say they could manage to produce a monophonic instrument based on the Prophet 6 architecture without "cannibalizing their other products". After all, the Mopho SE presumably will not be around for long, and the Pro 2 is an entirely different creature. Those would be the closest DSI synthesizers to such an instrument. Plus, the name "Prophet 1" is available.
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Regarding the Sequential line, I'd say they could manage to produce a monophonic instrument based on the Prophet 6 architecture. After all, the Mopho SE presumably will not be around for long, and the Pro 2 is an entirely different creature. Plus, the name "Prophet One" is available.
Theoretically, yes. I guess it's too soon to figure out what the Sequential philosophy is going to be. Will it be the all analog boutique brand? (The Prophet-6 is already too successful to be boutique, though.) Will there be something like state of the art full analog versions of some former DSI products? (Highly unlikely.) Or will DSI and Sequential just be one anyway?
If the recently lowered prices for some DSI instruments are anything to go by, you might be right in that we might have to say goodbye to a couple of products in the near future. The Prophet-12 Module is affected by the price-cutting as well though, and I don't expect it to disappear anytime soon - except, of course, it doesn't sell well in comparison to the keyboard version.
What they could still do apart from a monophonic Prophet-6: a drum machine (maybe a mid-priced instrument below the Tempest), further Eurorack modules, effect processors (again maybe in Eurorack format), and a synth that goes beyond the Evolvers and Prophets in terms of synthesis.
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I expect that DSI will remain the more modern line of DCO and DO synthesizers in which Dave's creativity and ingenuity can have free range, whereas Sequential will be the old school line of VCO synthesizers. I could see these two lines continuing parallel to each other, although it would make development a bit more complicated.
I imagine either the Mopho Keyboard or the Mopho SE will be the next to go. Of all the DSI synthesizers, these two are certainly the most similar. My main concern is that the Prophet '08 Keyboard or Module will also soon be discontinued, since I'm not quite done with these. I know they still sell quite well, but every instrument has a production life only so long, and the P08 is now almost eight years old.
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If the recently lowered prices for some DSI instruments are anything to go by, you might be right in that we might have to say goodbye to a couple of products in the near future.
What products besides the *droool* Prophet 12 module have their prices lowered? Could this be a result of changed availability of the Curtis chips that DSI uses? Or perhaps a realization that the future belong to discrete electronics machines to match the competition soundwise which in turn causes a shift away from Curtis chip based machines? Doubt we will get official word from DSI on this but its an interesting speculation!
PS: Thanks for sharing the demos! :-)
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I just had a listen and couldn't believe how bad it sounded, then I noticed the input meters on my audio interface were reading levels.
My Mac had decided to change my default OS audio device to a BOSS SY300 I had plugged in, so the OS audio was being routed to the SY300, passing through the FX and then back into the Mac where I had input monitoring on and to my speakers. Technology eh!
Sounds better once I changed it.
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Today's history lesson: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWyFTiF8L22yoTR15rccFsNzGXTydQFXe (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWyFTiF8L22yoTR15rccFsNzGXTydQFXe)
I uploaded this playlist because I couldn't find these files anywhere else online. There used to be links to these files on the old forum but they don't work anymore. Also, I know that this is technically not "other hardware," except for purely historical reasons. Beyond that, there's not really a sub forum for vintage Sequential stuff.
Oh I love that old sound, not the actual patches so much but the feeling the whole production gives me. But I love old horror movies as well due to the sound. Thank you for sharing.
Here in Sweden the prices have gone up high on DSI stuff and other brands as well due to the strong US dollar currency at the moment. Since I bought my Prophet 08 in may it's gone up 30%.
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Here are the price drops at Sweetwater. They average $150-$200, which is a substantial percentage on the smaller instruments.
http://www.sweetwater.com/c510--Synths_Modules?params=eyJmYWNldCI6eyJCcmFuZCI6WyJEYXZlIFNtaXRoIEluc3RydW1lbnRzIl19fQ
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Well it was a retirement thingy:
https://twitter.com/dsiSequential/status/654334902842691584
"Retiring #Mopho, Mopho Key, Mopho SE, #Tetra, & #Evolver!"
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Yikes! Thank you, Dslsynth, for posting that. I had missed it.
So the last Evolver is going. It's kind of sad. Has anybody heard any news about the Prophet '08? After all, it's older than everything else on that list, except for the Evolver desktop. And the price drops do include both the P08 Keyboard and Module (as well as the P12 Module).
Thank you, DSI, for telling us about this beforehand.
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Thanks for reposting the tweet, dslsynth!
Yes, it was kind of foreseeable, wasn't it? You don't lower prices for no reason. Seeing the last Evolver going is a bit like seeing the Voyager going - it's where it all started again for Dave.
Curtis chip supplies could also be a reason. It's also necessary to move on, especially since they're now running DSI and Sequential in tandem and they didn't hire twice as many people, so DSI/Sequential have to gain some resources somehow. This gives them lots of room to breathe and focus on the most recent and coming instruments.
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Yes, this day was inevitable. I just didn't expect DSI to clean out so much all at once. I'd guess they're doing this, in part, to save the remaining chips and other resources for the Prophet '08.
This also clears the way for more Sequential possibilities, since there will be less repetition between the two lines of instruments.
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Well I kind of suspected something like that from a technical point of view when I saw the price drops and it turned out to be true. Still waiting for the official word on why. Good to know the tweet sharing was appreciated.
The only box I miss from the line of discontinued products would be a Tetra or two but unless they are offered to me for something like $100 each they are completely out of my reach financially. Also I have learned in the past that running after a discontinued product to get one at the last possible moment and that possibly at very high costs may not always be the best idea because a new and much better solution may/will arrive sometimes in the future. I mean, just look at Moog MF-104 later replaced by the far more powerful MF-104M.
If we should speculate a little on the future product ranges what I would wonder most about is what the price range future DSI and Sequential products will be in. What we have seen in recent years are mainly highly priced flagship products (aka the jewel syndrome). I personally hope that DSI would make a new platform smaller voice count lower cost hybrid voice architecture desktop module. But we could just as well see Dave wanting to continue the sequential process of creating one flagship instrument after another. Which is understandable if one thinks about the market and artistic impact they make but its sad for low budget users like me who came to DSI because of their affordable fairly advanced voice architecture machines.
And if I should mention the unmentionable there seems to be happening a reduction of software work backlog in their current product line fairly soon. Mopho module needs the EWI fix which is already made but not published yet (ref old forum), Tetra may have a few issues, Evolver desktop have a number of MIDI bugs while the Mopho keyboards seems to be working fairly well. Would be nice if these things would be fixed one day!
Right now it seems that DSI are focusing their product range towards the higher priced items.
Good for DSI. Bad for me! :'(
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Exciting news! I'm really hoping for new innovations below $1000 then.
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I'm not sure what to think about the immediate future. DSI/Sequential introduces one new product per year, or sometimes two in the case of a module version. So, it's not as if these five instruments could be quickly replaced. I don't interpret the discontinuations as meaning they'll churn out two or three quickly. It's probably due more to necessity, to scarcity of parts and difficulties with old software. But I do hope there are some items of various sizes in the future, especially modules. The thing I've most liked about DSI has been the variety of instruments that could be combined - this keyboard with that module. It allows for custom-tailored growth according to your exact needs. But these discontinuations will leave us with only two expensive modules.
This is also a problem for someone like myself who powers bass pedals with synthesizer modules; the choices will soon be too few and impractical for that. Modules like the Evolver and Tetra were just perfect for it, and I had intended to eventually add one or the other.
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@lnetzel: Well only time will tell if that is great news or not! Fingers crossed for more affordable DSI products. But it would be a pleasant surprised than I am hoping for rather than something that I expect to happen.
@Sacred Synthesis: It would be a wise move by DSI if they made (more) affordable modules too as that would accommodate less wealthy users. Would guess that a four voice module would be great for bass pedals as that allowed a stereo panned pair of filters for each foot. Or?
There is also quite some discussion on their facebook page too. Its interesting to follow the additions and predictable removals in this discussion:
https://www.facebook.com/davesmithinstruments/photos/a.121344287890444.16494.120221274669412/1087736227917907/?type=3
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@Sacred Synthesis: It would be a wise move by DSI if they made (more) affordable modules too as that would accommodate less wealthy users. Would guess that a four voice module would be great for bass pedals as that allowed a stereo panned pair of filters for each foot. Or?
Yes, indeed. Two Tetras would have been ideal in order to allow both for stereo panning and polyphonic playing, since you often want to double octaves or add an upper fifth for final chords. It had long been my practice as a church organist to end a piece with this sort of immense fullness in the bass. On a synthesizer, this could sound at least as dramatic.
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Two Tetras would have been ideal in order to allow both for stereo panning and polyphonic playing, since you often want to double octaves or add an upper fifth for final chords.
Just to understand it completely: How many notes do you need to play simultaneously on your bass pedals?
Would more oscillators in each voice - still dreaming about four analog and four digital oscillators in each voice - actually reduce your need to spend two voices on each note per left/right side? Or would you prefer fewer oscillators and use more voices instead?
Eight hardware voices assigned to bass pedals? DSI will love you for it! ;)
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Just to understand it completely: How many notes do you need to play simultaneously on your bass pedals?
Would more oscillators in each voice - still dreaming about four analog and four digital oscillators in each voice - actually reduce your need to spend two voices on each note per left/right side? Or would you prefer fewer oscillators and use more voices instead?
Eight hardware voices assigned to bass pedals? DSI will love you for it! ;)
Four oscillators has not been enough, so I'd like to double the number with a second Evolver Desktop. As for polyphony, I'd be happy with the ability to play three notes for triads, or even two notes, but this is all a bit of a dream right now. I'd be content to have one immense and flexible sound for single notes.
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The retirement still leaves us with 10 products:
Prophet-6, PRO 2, Tempest, Prophet 12 Keyboard & Desktop, Prophet '08 Keyboard & Desktop, Mopho x4, and the two Eurorack modules DSM 01 & 02.
There's plenty of room now for lots of mid-priced stuff. Remember: there haven't been any budget or smaller versions of the most recent hybrids (Prophet 12 & Pro 2) and the most recent analog design (Prophet-6). That could now be done without taking away too much from the flagship products.
I would expect, though, that most stripped down versions will find their way into the Eurorack world, namely as single elements of their flagship products. Because the Eurorack market is clearly a bigger thing now than it was back when all the desktop synths were introduced. What would make sense, for example, would be oscillator modules: one that contains the digital waveforms (incl. Superwaves) of the Prophet 12 & Pro 2, and one that contains two of the Prophet-6's VCOs.
As soon as the Mopho is gone, there'd be also room for another analog mono synth - maybe a single voice version of the Prophet-6.
So, in short, I would predict less desktop instruments and more Eurorack modules, especially now that even Roland and Moog joined the party, and a couple of downsized budget versions of the most recent flagships.
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Four oscillators has not been enough, so I'd like to double the number with a second Evolver Desktop. As for polyphony, I'd be happy with the ability to play three notes for triads, or even two notes, but this is all a bit of a dream right now. I'd be content to have one immense and flexible sound for single notes.
Interesting! So I will add you to my informal "we need four analog oscillators and four digital oscillators" ranting list. ;-) A side effect of such an architecture is that it supports four voice paraphonic operation with stereo panned filters on a two voice module. Would be a cool little box.
To me it sounds like you need four or eight voices for your bass pedals. Quite impressive!
There's plenty of room now for lots of mid-priced stuff. [...]
So, in short, I would predict less desktop instruments and more Eurorack modules, especially now that even Roland and Moog joined the party, and a couple of downsized budget versions of the most recent flagships.
Well desktop modules are self contained synthesizer voices that would be way more expensive and drown in cable salad if realized with eurorack components. So they are different things each with their strengths and weaknesses. What I do hope is that DSI will make more eurorack modules but also make more affordable synthesizer modules when it makes sense for the users.
Instead of making a mono it would be way nicer if the voice architecture had layers and the box contained two voices which allows for more fuller sounding stereo panned filters. If I could afford it I would go for a four or possibly six voice module.
Another aspect of the one/two/four voice module market is that the user interface do cost money too. Both MEK and Pro2 happens to have a lot of user interface controls and (only) a single voice. Which is my argument for making duophonic rather than monophonic modules. Will see what happens!
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The modular format is a versatile and creative approach to synthesis, but it's difficult to go about it in a small way. An independent modular system is a substantial investment. In order to build up a system that was the equivalent of the Evolver/Prophet '08 voice architecture, you'd have to spend more money than I'd want to think about. That's what I like about the modules - their versatile, compact, and very reasonably priced. The power of, say, a Tetra is just immense, and yet you can hold it in the palm of your hand.
In this day and age of mini keys and other miniature-sized musical devices, I'm surprised that the Eururack modulars have become so popular. Sure, they're smaller than Moog or Synthesizers.com modulars, but they're still on the corpulent side. I could imagine adding a few modules to a Pro 2, but otherwise going down the modular route seems impractical in my case. Please, more modestly-priced modules.
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In this day and age of mini keys and other tiny devices, I'm surprised that the Eururack modulars have become so popular.
Dunno. You can put lots of stuff into one or two modular cases, which will be more portable or less bulky than a keyboard instrument. Modules are put into the case in which they are going to be transported anyway. For any keyboard of desktop module you'd need an extra case.
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Well... as I've stated in another thread about this discontinuation, notice that all the synths discontinued, are the monophonic ones... exept for Pro2, if you consider that monophonic...
Either Dave has a new line of one-voice synths available, or he's not going to do more monophonics stuff... you can speculate on that for a while...
But I'm certain it's not because of CEM chip supply... Dave has patented that SMD chip, and it's probably just about getting them made to get new ones... besides, the Mopho x4 and Prophet '08 are still in production... they're not discontinued, and they use the same chips.
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Dunno. You can put lots of stuff into one or two modular cases, which will be more portable or less bulky than a keyboard instrument. Modules are put into the case in which they are going to be transported anyway. For any keyboard of desktop module you'd need an extra case.
It would be interesting to calculate exactly what cost and space would be required to create a Eurorack system equivalent to a Tetra.
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It would be interesting to calculate exactly what cost and space would be required to create a Eurorack system equivalent to a Tetra.
Certainly a valid question. I hope I'm not coming across as if I'm arguing against self-contained modules, which I'm not (I won't part with my Evolver because of that). I only think that it's probably more attractive for a manufacturer to develop a couple of modules instead, especially since that market is still growing. But maybe I'm totally wrong in my assumption and we'll see a couple of new desktop modules from DSI soon. The last things I remember about those, though, are that there won't be a Prophet-6 module (which would be totally against the design philosophy WYSIWYG), nor a PRO 2 module (which would make things utterly complicated).
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Also, what the world doesn't need is another instrument with a sequencer. There are more than enough around now as part of a module, or as affordable standalone devices.
There are some loose ends, though, DSI could go back to: a true stereo signal path à la Evolver, hybrid oscillator design, user modifiable/uploadable wavetables, ring modulation, and all the stuff that hasn't been done yet. I, for example, would also welcome something like an updated Wavestation like Razmo once suggested.
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A new Wavestation would be very appealing; or else, a new Prophet VS purer than the Poly Evolver. I think DSI should produce one genuine unapologetic all digital synthesizer - not a VA, and never mind DCOs or even DOs intended to imitate VCOs. Just make one purely digital instrument.
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There will never be an "equivalent" of Tetra in Eurorack... not unless it had full MIDI SysEx control, which I hardly doubt we'll ever see in a Eurorack format... simply because it's pointless to include this in the Eurorack world.
Also... it would be quite an amount of modules involved, since Tetra is polyphonic and VERY complex... you'd need 4 oscillator modules (ech containing 2 oscillators and two sub oscillators), 4 VCF modules, 4 VCA modules, a Mixer module, 12 Envelope modules, 16 LFO modules, 16 sequencer modules plus all the "loose bits and pieces" ... of course you could combine some of these into single modules, but in the end it would be a bit circumstancial, and I bet; a hell of a lot more expensive than the module.
Instead it could be done in a single module with all included... just a full Tetra, but with added electronics for routing all the above connections out to the Eurorack world... but that again would be more expensive than just the module... all those DAC's'n'ADC's needed to do this would be rather pricey I believe.
I seriously hope that DSI will keep making modules, keyboards and rack modules in addition to their new line of Eurorack stuff....
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There will never be an "equivalent" of Tetra in Eurorack... not unless it had full MIDI SysEx control, which I hardly doubt we'll ever see in a Eurorack format... simply because it's pointless to include this in the Eurorack world.
Also... it would be quite an amount of modules involved, since Tetra is polyphonic and VERY complex... you'd need 4 oscillator modules (ech containing 2 oscillators and two sub oscillators), 4 VCF modules, 4 VCA modules, a Mixer module, 12 Envelope modules, 16 LFO modules, 16 sequencer modules plus all the "loose bits and pieces" ... of course you could combine some of these into single modules, but in the end it would be a bit circumstancial, and I bet; a hell of a lot more expensive than the module.
Instead it could be done in a single module with all included... just a full Tetra, but with added electronics for routing all the above connections out to the Eurorack world... but that again would be more expensive than just the module... all those DAC's'n'ADC's needed to do this would be rather pricey I believe.
Right, and that was my point. Those little DSI desktop modules are exceptional for all sorts of reasons. The synthesizer world will have a hole in it without them.
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A shame to see the Evolver go.
Maybe DSI are going to follow the current trend of releasing some little synths with mini keys.
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A shame to see the Evolver go.
Maybe DSI are going to follow the current trend of releasing some little synths with mini keys.
Oh...now that was unnecessarily cruel.
I hope I'm not naïve in thinking that - with the exception of the Eurorack modules - DSI doesn't follow current trends; rather, they tend to set them.
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The thing is there is a market there.
There are loads of youngsters with a laptop running FL Studio/Live/Bitwig. A little synth to sit by their laptop with little keys to enter notes into a repeating loop and a few knobs to twiddle is what they are after, otherwise people might think they are just surfing the net!
I think there is space for DSI to produce the more professional line of synths (the prophets) and another budget line. After a few years hopefully those budget users will then move up a level.
The existing modules required another controller, a few mini keys gets rid of that obstacle.
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No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
Maybe DSI are going to follow the current trend of releasing some little synths with mini keys.
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Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
We all love you for that response, Pym! Oh and that sounds like a five voice! ;)
. o O ( disclosure of the week )
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Haha! Still no word on micro keys...
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If micro keys are desired just go for a module together with QuNexus, K-Board or LinnStrument! ;-)
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If you absolutely must have mini or micro keys, there are plenty of high-quality professional controllers available in a variety of colors.
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If you absolutely must have mini or micro keys, there are plenty of high-quality professional controllers available in a variety of colors.
https://youtu.be/05J14eDLo0E . o O ( ;) :o 8) )
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Must have been an outdoor ELP concert from the 80's.
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No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
Maybe DSI are going to follow the current trend of releasing some little synths with mini keys.
I'm getting tired of your evasions. When are we going to get a straight answer from you guys?
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If you absolutely must have mini or micro keys, there are plenty of high-quality professional controllers available in a variety of colors.
https://youtu.be/05J14eDLo0E . o O ( ;) :o 8) )
I'm mostly impressed by the chainsaw.
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This is not for the faint-hearted…
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This is not for the faint-hearted…
And I hear it comes with a free pacifier and a soft blue blanket.
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This is not for the faint-hearted…
And I hear it comes with a free pacifier and a soft blue blanket.
Yes. The pacifier tastes like tequila though.
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No.
No.
No.
No.
No.
Maybe DSI are going to follow the current trend of releasing some little synths with mini keys.
Spoilsports!
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I'm mostly impressed by the chainsaw.
Yeah, size does matter! :o
Also he did try to make a keyboard instrument with smaller keys! 8)
. o O ( DIY minikeys )
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Yeah, size does matter! :o
Also he did try to make a keyboard instrument with smaller keys! 8)
. o O ( DIY minikeys )
… while I was working on a purposefully bad Photoshop mashup …
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… while I was working on a purposefully bad Photoshop mashup …
Feature request for Adobe: chainsaw tool. ;)
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Feature request for Adobe: chainsaw tool. ;)
Adobe Photoshop Halloween Edition - for genuinely frustrated graphic designers. 8)
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Adobe Photoshop Halloween Edition - for genuinely frustrated graphic designers. 8)
Imagine DSI doing a video named "How to get minikeys on your DSI/Sequential keyboard" at a maker shop using laser cutter, angle grinder and sledge hammer while Dave describes the process with his usual cool attitude and elegantly sipping a glass of tequila. Would be a lovely precise statement on mimikeys. Suggested victim keyboard: Prophet 12 or Prophet 6. 8)
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Imagine DSI doing a video named "How to get minikeys on your DSI/Sequential keyboard" at a maker shop using laser cutter, angle grinder and sledge hammer while Dave describes the process with his usual cool attitude and elegantly sipping a glass of tequila. Would be a lovely precise statement on mimikeys. Suggested victim keyboard: Prophet 12 or Prophet 6. 8)
You think the synth gods would accept that as a sacrifice?
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You think the synth gods would accept that as a sacrifice?
Trust me, synth gods hates minikeys!