The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: LoboLives on May 23, 2022, 05:47:44 AM
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4x multi-timbral 24-voice wavetable Synthesizer with 3 wavetable oscillators, 2 analog filters (SVF morph & ladder lowpass), 4 LFOs, 4 envelopes, 2 FXs, and a sequencer.
https://www.synthanatomy.com/2022/05/groove-synthesis-3rd-wave-teaser-new-wavetable-synthesizer-with-ppg-wave-optics.html#comment-93764
Looks promising....although Groove Synthesis is a terrible name.
"3rd Wave comes from the new company Groove Synthesis from the founder Geoff Farr. A developer who already worked for Modal Electronics, UDO Audio, or on the tube Synthesizer Knifonium."
He also worked with Oberheim as well when Tom was doing SEMs/Two Voice Pros.
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4x multi-timbral 24-voice wavetable Synthesizer with 3 wavetable oscillators, 2 analog filters (SVF morph & ladder lowpass), 4 LFOs, 4 envelopes, 2 FXs, and a sequencer.
https://www.synthanatomy.com/2022/05/groove-synthesis-3rd-wave-teaser-new-wavetable-synthesizer-with-ppg-wave-optics.html#comment-93764
Looks promising....although Groove Synthesis is a terrible name.
"3rd Wave comes from the new company Groove Synthesis from the founder Geoff Farr. A developer who already worked for Modal Electronics, UDO Audio, or on the tube Synthesizer Knifonium."
He also worked with Oberheim as well when Tom was doing SEMs/Two Voice Pros.
Sounds exciting. I'm not overly excited about wavetables + analog filters, since my PEAK covers this ground for me, but this thing looks definitely interesting with all that knobs.
I especially like how you linked us directly to your comment about the name ;D ;D ;D
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4x multi-timbral 24-voice wavetable Synthesizer with 3 wavetable oscillators, 2 analog filters (SVF morph & ladder lowpass), 4 LFOs, 4 envelopes, 2 FXs, and a sequencer.
https://www.synthanatomy.com/2022/05/groove-synthesis-3rd-wave-teaser-new-wavetable-synthesizer-with-ppg-wave-optics.html#comment-93764
Looks promising....although Groove Synthesis is a terrible name.
"3rd Wave comes from the new company Groove Synthesis from the founder Geoff Farr. A developer who already worked for Modal Electronics, UDO Audio, or on the tube Synthesizer Knifonium."
He also worked with Oberheim as well when Tom was doing SEMs/Two Voice Pros.
Sounds exciting. I'm not overly excited about wavetables + analog filters, since my PEAK covers this ground for me, but this thing looks definitely interesting with all that knobs.
I especially like how you linked us directly to your comment about the name ;D ;D ;D
;)
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I like it, it sounds fantastic.
The demo video is gone now, though, removed from the company's Instagram account, and not accessible at their web site. That's weird.
I don't see any problem with the name.
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I don't see any problem with the name.
I dunno, I think it just sounds immature and it's linguistically awkward. Like naming a guitar brand "Cool Guitar". Not "Cool" but "Cool Guitar" as the actual brand name. Compare it to Sequential, Oberheim, Moog, ARP, Novation, Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Elektron. "Groove Synthesis" just doesn't roll of the tongue.
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I don't see any problem with the name.
I dunno, I think it just sounds immature and it's linguistically awkward. Like naming a guitar brand "Cool Guitar". Not "Cool" but "Cool Guitar" as the actual brand name. Compare it to Sequential, Oberheim, Moog, ARP, Novation, Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Elektron. "Groove Synthesis" just doesn't roll of the tongue.
The worst name for a synth company has to be Moog Music. 60 years and nobody knows how to pronounce it, despite 60 years of them explaining how to pronounce it. Korg is also kind of an absurd string of phonemes. If a company named "Korg" started today, would you seriously not criticize that name?
Groove's name will grow into the company, if the instrument is worth it.
I think they should tell people that it's pronounced "Grove." :)
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BOOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=yZ-s9YW7JgA&feature=emb_logo
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
I don't think they will sell well at that price point, it's not a reissue of the PPG Wave, it's an inspired-by design by an unproven company. I would expect the price point to be more something like a Super 6, especially when I can get a Waldorf M desktop for around $1,600 from Thomanns, or for about same a Virus TI2 with 16 part multitimbral, individual FX per part, etc. I dig the buttons and ample knobbery, but I'm thinking $2,220 or so would be more appropriate..
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
I don't think they will sell well at that price point, it's not a reissue of the PPG Wave, it's an inspired-by design by an unproven company. I would expect the price point to be more something like a Super 6, especially when I can get a Waldorf M desktop for around $1,600 from Thomanns, or for about same a Virus TI2 with 16 part multitimbral, individual FX per part, etc. I dig the buttons and ample knobbery, but I'm thinking $2,220 or so would be more appropriate..
I hope you are right but I have a feeling because it's a boutique company they are going to try and justify an exorbitant cost simply because.....PPG Wave. I know it's not a reissue or a clone but it feels like something Waldorf should have come up with already as a successor to the PPG Wave and that might be enough.
Keep in mind they were charging $5000+ for an Oberheim Two Voice Pro....that's 2 voices and no patch memory and now they are charging about the same for the OBX8.
At this point synth companies are going to jack up their prices to offset chip shortages.
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
I don't think they will sell well at that price point, it's not a reissue of the PPG Wave, it's an inspired-by design by an unproven company. I would expect the price point to be more something like a Super 6, especially when I can get a Waldorf M desktop for around $1,600 from Thomanns, or for about same a Virus TI2 with 16 part multitimbral, individual FX per part, etc. I dig the buttons and ample knobbery, but I'm thinking $2,220 or so would be more appropriate..
I hope you are right but I have a feeling because it's a boutique company they are going to try and justify an exorbitant cost simply because.....PPG Wave. I know it's not a reissue or a clone but it feels like something Waldorf should have come up with already as a successor to the PPG Wave and that might be enough.
Keep in mind they were charging $5000+ for an Oberheim Two Voice Pro....that's 2 voices and no patch memory and now they are charging about the same for the OBX8.
At this point synth companies are going to jack up their prices to offset chip shortages.
Yes but getting a true VCO sound out of software is something that software struggles to do without using an enormous amount of CPU (and even then something still seems missing), while wave tables are kind of like FM synthesis -- something software does quite well and has been for some time, so I think the appeal here is the tactile interface and retro vibe.
An Oberheim four voice is on Reverb currently for $29,999... meanwhile one can pick up a Wavestation or a DX7 for a few hundred bucks. The case for a high dollar digital synth is a much harder one to make.
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
I don't think they will sell well at that price point, it's not a reissue of the PPG Wave, it's an inspired-by design by an unproven company. I would expect the price point to be more something like a Super 6, especially when I can get a Waldorf M desktop for around $1,600 from Thomanns, or for about same a Virus TI2 with 16 part multitimbral, individual FX per part, etc. I dig the buttons and ample knobbery, but I'm thinking $2,220 or so would be more appropriate..
I hope you are right but I have a feeling because it's a boutique company they are going to try and justify an exorbitant cost simply because.....PPG Wave. I know it's not a reissue or a clone but it feels like something Waldorf should have come up with already as a successor to the PPG Wave and that might be enough.
Keep in mind they were charging $5000+ for an Oberheim Two Voice Pro....that's 2 voices and no patch memory and now they are charging about the same for the OBX8.
At this point synth companies are going to jack up their prices to offset chip shortages.
Yes but getting a true VCO sound out of software is something that software struggles to do without using an enormous amount of CPU (and even then something still seems missing), while wave tables are kind of like FM synthesis -- something software does quite well and has been for some time, so I think the appeal here is the tactile interface and retro vibe.
An Oberheim four voice is on Reverb currently for $29,999... meanwhile one can pick up a Wavestation or a DX7 for a few hundred bucks. The case for a high dollar digital synth is a much harder one to make.
It doesn't matter.....look at the C15, Solaris, Iridium, Quantum, M, Fantom, Montage, K2700. All expensive investments.
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
I don't think they will sell well at that price point, it's not a reissue of the PPG Wave, it's an inspired-by design by an unproven company. I would expect the price point to be more something like a Super 6, especially when I can get a Waldorf M desktop for around $1,600 from Thomanns, or for about same a Virus TI2 with 16 part multitimbral, individual FX per part, etc. I dig the buttons and ample knobbery, but I'm thinking $2,220 or so would be more appropriate..
I hope you are right but I have a feeling because it's a boutique company they are going to try and justify an exorbitant cost simply because.....PPG Wave. I know it's not a reissue or a clone but it feels like something Waldorf should have come up with already as a successor to the PPG Wave and that might be enough.
Keep in mind they were charging $5000+ for an Oberheim Two Voice Pro....that's 2 voices and no patch memory and now they are charging about the same for the OBX8.
At this point synth companies are going to jack up their prices to offset chip shortages.
Yes but getting a true VCO sound out of software is something that software struggles to do without using an enormous amount of CPU (and even then something still seems missing), while wave tables are kind of like FM synthesis -- something software does quite well and has been for some time, so I think the appeal here is the tactile interface and retro vibe.
An Oberheim four voice is on Reverb currently for $29,999... meanwhile one can pick up a Wavestation or a DX7 for a few hundred bucks. The case for a high dollar digital synth is a much harder one to make.
It doesn't matter.....look at the C15, Solaris, Iridium, Quantum, M, Fantom, Montage, K2700. All expensive investments.
Not saying any of the new instruments are being given away for free, just again suggesting that with....
Iridium - $2,159
M - $1,577
Montage 6 - $2,555
K2700 - $2,555
... it would make a $5k synth from a brand nobody has heard of a really hard sell.
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
I don't think they will sell well at that price point, it's not a reissue of the PPG Wave, it's an inspired-by design by an unproven company. I would expect the price point to be more something like a Super 6, especially when I can get a Waldorf M desktop for around $1,600 from Thomanns, or for about same a Virus TI2 with 16 part multitimbral, individual FX per part, etc. I dig the buttons and ample knobbery, but I'm thinking $2,220 or so would be more appropriate..
I hope you are right but I have a feeling because it's a boutique company they are going to try and justify an exorbitant cost simply because.....PPG Wave. I know it's not a reissue or a clone but it feels like something Waldorf should have come up with already as a successor to the PPG Wave and that might be enough.
Keep in mind they were charging $5000+ for an Oberheim Two Voice Pro....that's 2 voices and no patch memory and now they are charging about the same for the OBX8.
At this point synth companies are going to jack up their prices to offset chip shortages.
Yes but getting a true VCO sound out of software is something that software struggles to do without using an enormous amount of CPU (and even then something still seems missing), while wave tables are kind of like FM synthesis -- something software does quite well and has been for some time, so I think the appeal here is the tactile interface and retro vibe.
An Oberheim four voice is on Reverb currently for $29,999... meanwhile one can pick up a Wavestation or a DX7 for a few hundred bucks. The case for a high dollar digital synth is a much harder one to make.
It doesn't matter.....look at the C15, Solaris, Iridium, Quantum, M, Fantom, Montage, K2700. All expensive investments.
Not saying any of the new instruments are being given away for free, just again suggesting that with....
Iridium - $2,159
M - $1,577
Montage 6 - $2,555
K2700 - $2,555
... it would make a $5k synth from a brand nobody has heard of a really hard sell.
It's probably just a small run from a boutique company tho. Solaris is $4K last time I checked, C15 is $5K. They aren't intended this to be a mass market product like the ones listed above.
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Any word on the planned MSRP?
My guess $5000+
I don't think they will sell well at that price point, it's not a reissue of the PPG Wave, it's an inspired-by design by an unproven company. I would expect the price point to be more something like a Super 6, especially when I can get a Waldorf M desktop for around $1,600 from Thomanns, or for about same a Virus TI2 with 16 part multitimbral, individual FX per part, etc. I dig the buttons and ample knobbery, but I'm thinking $2,220 or so would be more appropriate..
I hope you are right but I have a feeling because it's a boutique company they are going to try and justify an exorbitant cost simply because.....PPG Wave. I know it's not a reissue or a clone but it feels like something Waldorf should have come up with already as a successor to the PPG Wave and that might be enough.
Keep in mind they were charging $5000+ for an Oberheim Two Voice Pro....that's 2 voices and no patch memory and now they are charging about the same for the OBX8.
At this point synth companies are going to jack up their prices to offset chip shortages.
Yes but getting a true VCO sound out of software is something that software struggles to do without using an enormous amount of CPU (and even then something still seems missing), while wave tables are kind of like FM synthesis -- something software does quite well and has been for some time, so I think the appeal here is the tactile interface and retro vibe.
An Oberheim four voice is on Reverb currently for $29,999... meanwhile one can pick up a Wavestation or a DX7 for a few hundred bucks. The case for a high dollar digital synth is a much harder one to make.
It doesn't matter.....look at the C15, Solaris, Iridium, Quantum, M, Fantom, Montage, K2700. All expensive investments.
Not saying any of the new instruments are being given away for free, just again suggesting that with....
Iridium - $2,159
M - $1,577
Montage 6 - $2,555
K2700 - $2,555
... it would make a $5k synth from a brand nobody has heard of a really hard sell.
It's probably just a small run from a boutique company tho. Solaris is $4K last time I checked, C15 is $5K. They aren't intended this to be a mass market product like the ones listed above.
Which is fine, and would be in line with my original point that they wouldn't sell well (i.e. decent quantities) at that price point. John Bowen is sort of outside the scope of a nobody, and the C15 is sort of an experiment in how much folks are willing to pay for a great looking hunk of wood running a VST IMO.
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It will sell well enough to offset the chip shortage issue.
They don't want to run into a situation like Korg where things are announced and then never actually go anywhere because they can't make them due to supply shortages. Or companies taking orders and having a 2 year waiting list and not updating customers.
Same reason why the OBX8 is so expensive. Marcus even admitted that the demand is going to be higher than what they can produce. How do you offset this? You increase the cost so that it's just out of range for most people and only possible for a select few to obtain. So the amount of units they have to make isn't as much as something mass produced for $2500 that's made in the USA (which is next to impossible economically) It doesn't matter if it's analog or digital. It would be worse for the company to charge $2500 for something they can't produce enough of and fall behind on orders. Trust me, been there, done that. From a customer's point of view, the backlash the company would receive would kill any honeymoon period a new announcement has.
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It will sell well enough to offset the chip shortage issue.
They don't want to run into a situation like Korg where things are announced and then never actually go anywhere because they can't make them due to supply shortages. Or companies taking orders and having a 2 year waiting list and not updating customers.
Same reason why the OBX8 is so expensive. Marcus even admitted that the demand is going to be higher than what they can produce. How do you offset this? You increase the cost so that it's just out of range for most people and only possible for a select few to obtain. So the amount of units they have to make isn't as much as something mass produced for $2500 that's made in the USA (which is next to impossible economically) It doesn't matter if it's analog or digital. It would be worse for the company to charge $2500 for something they can't produce enough of and fall behind on orders. Trust me, been there, done that. From a customer's point of view, the backlash the company would receive would kill any honeymoon period a new announcement has.
I get what you're saying, but I mean the OB-X8 is still a fantastic deal, adjusted for inflation, compared to the MSRP of the original 80's Oberheim equivalent. I'm not sure I can say the same about a $5k digital synth. Anyway I'd like to wait and see what the MSRP is before over-thinking it too much (beyond what I already have:)) ... I do think overall it's smarter for a new company to set the price at something they think will be maintainable long-term rather than try to increase or lower it constantly every few years as the economic picture fluctuates. Customers are a fickle bunch and don't forget easily if they feel they've been gouged, so for long term health of a company it may be better to have orders higher than supply allows but maintain an attractive price point. Just my POV
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Looks like MSRP = $3,800
https://www.synthanatomy.com/2022/06/namm-2022-groove-synthesis-3rd-wave-multi-timbra-wavetable-synthesizer-full-details.html
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Looks like MSRP = $3,800
https://www.synthanatomy.com/2022/06/namm-2022-groove-synthesis-3rd-wave-multi-timbra-wavetable-synthesizer-full-details.html
I had a gut feeling. It's not the $5000 mark but still..
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Funny enough I was watching an Edgar Froese video last night with him playing in his backyard. A PPG Wave 2 and Oberheim OBX on top of it.
The idea of a
Groove Synthesis 3rd Wave (I still hate the name)
and an Oberheim OBX8 is mouthwatering.
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Someone did bring up a good point tho
"Waldorf Blofeld: 3-osc wavetable/VA/rompler synth with 25-voice polyphony, 16-part multitimbrality, user's custom wavetables and wavesamples (60MB sample memory), 4-octave Fatar keybed with aftertouch, metal case, arpeggiator, 16 slots mod matrix, effects etc, and all these at $1,250 in Sweetwater. In Europe you can buy it at €800/$860 from Thomann.
Tell me a really serious reason Why this new wavetable synth costs $2,545 more (or $2,935 in Europe). Tell me also Why this $3795 / 3-osc. digital synth has a 24-voice polyphony (and not at least 128) and 4-part multitimbrality (instead of 16).
Don't tell me the stupid "coz it has analog filters" or the more stupid "it has 70+ pots" or "it has 1 extra octave"."
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Looks and sounds incredible
"You can record audio in and it will convert it to a wavetable in real time."---- :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Beea7XxyfEo
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Don't tell me the stupid "coz it has analog filters" or the more stupid "it has 70+ pots" or "it has 1 extra octave"."
The price difference is largely due to 3rd Wave having analog filters and 70+ pots, in addition to having an extra octave.
Also, I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe the Blofeld's sound as "incredible."
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From Bob's Linkedin page:
"DSP design work for the Prophet 12, Pro 2, Prophet 6, OB 6, Feedback Module, Prophet Rev 2, Prophet X, Pro 3, and Prophet 5. Designed and implemented all anti-aliased subtractive, additive, and noise based waveforms for the P12, Pro2, Prophet X, and Pro 3. Designed all effects in the Prophet 6 and forward."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEi3zVtHZUk
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From Bob's Linkedin page... etc.
That's a really impressive CV!
The Pro 3 got me interested in wavetable synthesis. These days I realize that the Pro 3's wavetable is sort of a simplified system, with one oscillator, few reference waveforms, no control over interpolation, relatively low sample rate, a small wavetable memory, etc. It's fantastic in the context of being part of a larger analog synth, and teasing the true power of wavetables, but...
...but damn, 3rd Wave is awesome. I think the price is pretty much right where it should be. Maybe after all the kids are out of college! Meanwhile, I'll make due with Pro 3 and Serum, which isn't anything I should complain about.
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From Bob's Linkedin page... etc.
That's a really impressive CV!
The Pro 3 got me interested in wavetable synthesis. These days I realize that the Pro 3's wavetable is sort of a simplified system, with one oscillator, few reference waveforms, no control over interpolation, relatively low sample rate, a small wavetable memory, etc. It's fantastic in the context of being part of a larger analog synth, and teasing the true power of wavetables, but...
...but damn, 3rd Wave is awesome. I think the price is pretty much right where it should be. Maybe after all the kids are out of college! Meanwhile, I'll make due with Pro 3 and Serum, which isn't anything I should complain about.
I'm still super hopeful that the rumored Sequential synth that was scheduled for later this year (and likely Dave's last synth) is a VCO/Wavetable hybrid. It seems like a no brainer and honestly, as incredible as the 3rd Wave looks and sounds, I'd still go for a polyphonic VCO/wavetable synth from Sequential (with 2 wavetable oscillators, control over interpolation etc. ) Perhaps with two engines like in the PX (One VCO and one Wavetable) where you can choose if you can enable and disable each engine and mix and match.
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Matt is an absolutely incredible musician and I always love to see a new video from him.
But what in the hell is going on here from about 24-45 seconds in... lol. Or is it just me?
https://youtu.be/duPz7SYj38E
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Ha, that is a weird little moment ;). Neat looking instrument, but I'm maxed out unless a PEK REV2 comes my way.
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So, it looks like the $3,800 price tag was just a marketing gimmick, they now want $5k.
On principle, that just rubs me the wrong way. I suppose I will need to mark this one off my wish list.
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So, it looks like the $3,800 price tag was just a marketing gimmick, they now want $5k.
On principle, that just rubs me the wrong way. I suppose I will need to mark this one off my wish list.
That was when they were available directly from the manufacturer. The markup is at least partly due to the dealers’ cut.
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That was when they were available directly from the manufacturer. The markup is at least partly due to the dealers’ cut.
Perhaps you're right.... I've personally never seen the cost of direct vs retail differ by such a large percentage, but if that is in fact the case then I shall be voting....with my wallet....against the notion of inordinately high dealer markup.
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yeah, my "gas" was getting riled up for a bit watch' the videos, then seeing this price quelled that quick enough. Not ever owning the original PPG myself, and considering much of the third wave's intent to copy that sound.... I wonder if as an alternative I could copy those waveforms into the Summit for example, and get some of the same vibe. Wish the Hydrasynth could take new waveforms, might be an easier interface for that.
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yeah, my "gas" was getting riled up for a bit watch' the videos, then seeing this price quelled that quick enough. Not ever owning the original PPG myself, and considering much of the third wave's intent to copy that sound.... I wonder if as an alternative I could copy those waveforms into the Summit for example, and get some of the same vibe. Wish the Hydrasynth could take new waveforms, might be an easier interface for that.
As much as I would like to own a 3rd Wave, the bottom line for me is that digital sounds are well represented enough among the other synths I have (like P12, Hydrasynth, Virus, SH-4d etc) so that the price point would have to be really compelling for me to bite (notwithstanding other issues like physical space). I have the Waldorf PPG Wave plug-in, and to my ears it does sound legimitately like a PPG Wave, contains the original wavetables, and at least in a mix wouldn't be distinguishable. Then there are plugins like Serum that are mind bogglingly flexible.
I would most certainly love to own a real PPG Wave, but even then the reality is it would be mostly for nostalgia, which with a look-alike synth I'm only getting a facsimile of that nostalgic experience.
But everyone has different needs, so maybe it's not overpriced in everyone's mind.
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https://www.gearnews.com/groove-synthesis-introduces-3rd-wave-desktop-wavetable-synth-module/
A desktop version is becoming available. I would have preferred to see a lower voice count / lower priced model, but maybe some will be interested.
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Well, with the desktop available, the price is now at least in an orbit I was willing to spend. I took the plunge and picked up the desktop module.
After spending just a few hours on this, I can tell already that I don't miss the extra knobs that are on the keyboard unit. I worried about that some, but there is no menu diving, just pushbuttons that consolidate.
Had I not already read many things about this instrument, and how some previous DSI engineers were involved in the design, I would have still picked up immediately on the similarities in layout of the DSI/Sequential ergonomics. Of course this is a joy to use, because Dave's stuff leads the pack in intuitive layouts.
I'll be selling the Summit to help offset some costs, but this should cover that ground anyway.
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Well, with the desktop available, the price is now at least in an orbit I was willing to spend. I took the plunge and picked up the desktop module.
After spending just a few hours on this, I can tell already that I don't miss the extra knobs that are on the keyboard unit. I worried about that some, but there is no menu diving, just pushbuttons that consolidate.
Had I not already read many things about this instrument, and how some previous DSI engineers were involved in the design, I would have still picked up immediately on the similarities in layout of the DSI/Sequential ergonomics. Of course this is a joy to use, because Dave's stuff leads the pack in intuitive layouts.
I'll be selling the Summit to help offset some costs, but this should cover that ground anyway.
Congrats on the acquisition! One of these modules is high on my want list, but I'm not sure if I will ever pull the trigger or not. I think if they released a 12 voice bi-timbral version in the $1,600 USD range, I likely wouldn't be able to resist further. But maybe in the future, even at the existing price point...
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Thanks Lobo lives. I spent well too much this year between getting the Pro3, a drum machine and now this. But when friends of mine spend thousands on new golf clubs it makes me feel a little more justified ;D I'm hoping my Summit sells quickly. Just selling thru local FB marketplace.
I was never a voice count fanatic, so that was not of any selling point to me. I could have lived with less voices for less cost as you say. Though I can see that once you would get past 2 layers this higher count ability being of value. To be honest though, on instruments I've owned that allowed greater than two multi layers, I found to be a little tough navigating and keeping track of things. So I'm curious how this will compare. By the way, they do have a nice provision to easily layer the same patch and pan L and R so some nice stereo.
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Curious on your thoughts on the 3rd Wave Desktop so far, and any thoughts on how it compares to the P12 sonically? Any specific likes or dislikes?
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The "bad" are fixable: Selecting multiparts (2,3, or 4) so as to edit all parts simultaneously is difficult. Maybe its just the desktop, but I have a hard time getting 2 or more to flash in unison. I'm hoping a OS fix will address this. There a couple of small bugs which again, I assume OS updates will fix. If you are working on a patch and making edits to it, its hard to go back to patch same number to save it w/o reverting back to the program screen, which then defaults you back to default patch. This is a workflow problem that should be fixed. Sequencer selection for multi parts is a little odd. Already talked to their support crew and they recognized that and plan on updating it.
The good: Customer service for the questions I had has been fantastic and quick. I love the waveform import to hardware made so easy. Already have cymbal and banjo sounds imported :) The quality of sound is superior grade, I think it takes the cake to be honest. Right there with UDOs6 for like binural type sound if you wish to set it multiparts panned L/R. The analog waves with some drift set can get you into OB6 realm. I'm a little slow on picking up on the 2 filter types filters in being series order, would rather had a parallel option like on Pro2. Sequencer can do real-time recording which -alleluia!
As for a side by side, and your P12 example, I really haven't tried that yet. The P12 can make so many wave forms from mutating the few that are onboard. I always liked how the P12 how it could go really deep on the lower notes. This seems to have a bottomless pit for low notes still being discernable. But to me the 3rd wave just a different beast for a different purpose. The only instrument I'm replacing due to this purchase is the Summit, which was nice, but redundant, and really offered nothing sonically unique to what I already had. Though, I will miss the tunable scales. I had several that I liked having in there Baroque/African/Chinese. Anyway...whereas my other DSI stuff (and other makes as well) each offer a unique tone or ability to the synth lineup I use. Speaking of comparisons, the first thing I thought of when I flicked on the 3rd wave and started messing around was that I was able to get into that PEK territory more than anything else I've owned. I hope to do a youtube soon.
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The "bad" are fixable: Selecting multiparts (2,3, or 4) so as to edit all parts simultaneously is difficult. Maybe its just the desktop, but I have a hard time getting 2 or more to flash in unison. I'm hoping a OS fix will address this. There a couple of small bugs which again, I assume OS updates will fix. If you are working on a patch and making edits to it, its hard to go back to patch same number to save it w/o reverting back to the program screen, which then defaults you back to default patch. This is a workflow problem that should be fixed. Sequencer selection for multi parts is a little odd. Already talked to their support crew and they recognized that and plan on updating it.
The good: Customer service for the questions I had has been fantastic and quick. I love the waveform import to hardware made so easy. Already have cymbal and banjo sounds imported :) The quality of sound is superior grade, I think it takes the cake to be honest. Right there with UDOs6 for like binural type sound if you wish to set it multiparts panned L/R. The analog waves with some drift set can get you into OB6 realm. I'm a little slow on picking up on the 2 filter types filters in being series order, would rather had a parallel option like on Pro2. Sequencer can do real-time recording which -alleluia!
As for a side by side, and your P12 example, I really haven't tried that yet. The P12 can make so many wave forms from mutating the few that are onboard. I always liked how the P12 how it could go really deep on the lower notes. This seems to have a bottomless pit for low notes still being discernable. But to me the 3rd wave just a different beast for a different purpose. The only instrument I'm replacing due to this purchase is the Summit, which was nice, but redundant, and really offered nothing sonically unique to what I already had. Though, I will miss the tunable scales. I had several that I liked having in there Baroque/African/Chinese. Anyway...whereas my other DSI stuff (and other makes as well) each offer a unique tone or ability to the synth lineup I use. Speaking of comparisons, the first thing I thought of when I flicked on the 3rd wave and started messing around was that I was able to get into that PEK territory more than anything else I've owned. I hope to do a youtube soon.
Thank you for the thoughts! Since you mentioned simultaneous part editing, I'm curious whether multiple oscillators be selected simultanously by holding buttons?
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My module should be here in a few days, I've seen/heard enough on Youtube to believe that I have multiple use cases this module will fit nicely into, and got a deal I couldn't refuse.
Any "wish I'd known that in the first hour!" sort of tips appreciated!
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LPF3, Congrats. I'm sure you'll like it. By the way...about the multiselect buttons. I emailed Groove support and they said that there is a downloadable beta1.6 version more recent than the existing 1.6OS you module will likely come with. That has a fix that allows you to use the mode key as a shift...then select any parts you want to update simultaneously. I plan to update it tomorrow.
I got tangled up for hours the other day comparing 3rdwave's analog waveforms to the Hydrasynth and OB6, comparing, contrasting. When all was said and done, not sure I accomplished much. I mean w/o filters engaged you can hear differences. Actually the hydrasynth seemed to have the strongest "spectra", but once filters come to play we're back to filter comparisons, not oscillators so much. I was able to get all 3 of them to sound pretty close using a saw wave slightly filtered.
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LPF3, Congrats. I'm sure you'll like it. By the way...about the multiselect buttons. I emailed Groove support and they said that there is a downloadable beta1.6 version more recent than the existing 1.6OS you module will likely come with. That has a fix that allows you to use the mode key as a shift...then select any parts you want to update simultaneously. I plan to update it tomorrow.
I got tangled up for hours the other day comparing 3rdwave's analog waveforms to the Hydrasynth and OB6, comparing, contrasting. When all was said and done, not sure I accomplished much. I mean w/o filters engaged you can hear differences. Actually the hydrasynth seemed to have the strongest "spectra", but once filters come to play we're back to filter comparisons, not oscillators so much. I was able to get all 3 of them to sound pretty close using a saw wave slightly filtered.
Interesting about the mode button!
One of my strongest interests in the 3W is a particular use cases that involves the 24 voices/4 parts aspect, and the VA synthesis, so the wavetable/PPG sounds etc are more of an icing on the cake thing to me as odd as that might seem. Also since it can read Serum wavetables, I'm interested to try that to see how well it works out. Serum is a nice wavetable plugin, but the main things about it I wasn't fond of (just the fact that its a plug in and not hardware, uses lots of CPU to sound impressive etc) seem potentially solved with running those wavetables through the 2140 filter. I wonder if this feature is as good as it sounds or is just a box-ticking sales boost feature. I'm also curious to see what new features they may add, it seems to be a very powerful synth with a lot of potential.. but from what I've heard, I think I will be happy with it even with the functionality it has today.
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Sorry if this has already been posted elsewhere, it's not a new video but I think there are lots of very interesting insights into this synth in this interview with Bob Coover and Mark Wilcox. It's a long video, but there is lots of good stuff to learn here about the design/creation process of this synth. This is a labor of love for these guys, which means things don't happen overnight or impulsively, the synth was in development for a long time, and they all have good day jobs and thus no "corporate hustle incentive" to throw XYZ feature in done with bugs then abandon, rinse and repeat. There is a genuine passion for synths and an amazing pedigree behind this product. I also think it has the potential to have interesting features added to the current model without pressure to withhold features for a sequel. I've heard nothing but great things about the synth and the guys behind it and can't wait to hear how mine sounds when it arrives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c8r0Y1mCiA&t=39s
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Now that I own this module and have had some time with it, I'm looking back on some of the prior reluctance/doubts I posted in the first few pages of thread, and I'm now realizing I should probably not speculate on the value of an instrument I haven't heard in person.
This is a special synth and well worth the money.
More later...
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The "bad" are fixable: Selecting multiparts (2,3, or 4) so as to edit all parts simultaneously is difficult. Maybe its just the desktop, but I have a hard time getting 2 or more to flash in unison.
I'm running the latest beta as of today (1.6e) and this was still fiddly for me until I the got the hang of the intended workflow (i.e. first make sure the parts are active, then double tap both parts simultanously). They may have relaxed the timing required for the double tap, but it seems to work well enough once I realized what I'm supposed to do..It's different to be sure, I guess that's the requirement of a synth with so many voices and parts.
I gave it a little practice so I could do the double-tap-dance faster with 2-3 parts, as I think this is a key aspect of how I will use this synth (multi-editing 3 parts actually may be easier on the desktop due to tight proximity between fingers 1+2+thumb.. can't confirm that as I haven't tried keyboard).
Just to test my dexterity I tried double tapping 4 buttons at once with one hand, and then realized I was probably creating unrealistic goals for myself :).... Using two hands though, it's perfectly doable, at least with beta 1.6e
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I say don't bother , just use the mode button as a shift for the selects.
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I say don't bother , just use the mode button as a shift for the selects.
On my unit the mode button doesn't seem to enable multiple parts for editing, only double tap.
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Groove actually sent me a link via email to a special version of 1.6 that allows this feature. They are probably waiting to add a few more bug fixes before posting that version on their website. I called it "downloadable" earlier by mistake. Shoot them an email. Just activate the layers you want, then mode/ then tap each (they all stick correctly).
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Groove actually sent me a link via email to a special version of 1.6 that allows this feature. They are probably waiting to add a few more bug fixes before posting that version on their website. I called it "downloadable" earlier by mistake. Shoot them an email. Just activate the layers you want, then mode/ then tap each (they all stick correctly).
Thanks, it's all good though... I've gotten used to the double tap thing for now -- the only time it was an issue was before I cracked open the manual and understood how it worked. I might like the Mode button method once the downloadable release comes out, but I'm not in any hurry for that one feature.
Have you heard Scott McAuley's new soundset he just released? Worth listening to even if you're not interested in other's sound design. When I saw the video with the Howard Jones "What Is Love" program I thought about how this synth does a nice Jupiter 8 if it is instructed to do so.
Link to that part of the vid here: https://youtu.be/PSRfFl-_F28?t=966
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Groove actually sent me a link via email to a special version of 1.6 that allows this feature. They are probably waiting to add a few more bug fixes before posting that version on their website. I called it "downloadable" earlier by mistake. Shoot them an email. Just activate the layers you want, then mode/ then tap each (they all stick correctly).
Thanks, it's all good though... I've gotten used to the double tap thing for now -- the only time it was an issue was before I cracked open the manual and understood how it worked. I might like the Mode button method once the downloadable release comes out, but I'm not in any hurry for that one feature.
Have you heard Scott McAuley's new soundset he just released? Worth listening to even if you're not interested in other's sound design. When I saw the video with the Howard Jones "What Is Love" program I thought about how this synth does a nice Jupiter 8 if it is instructed to do so.
Link to that part of the vid here: https://youtu.be/PSRfFl-_F28?t=966
LPF83, I sure have. I like listening to all his synth soundset designs. He presents the various patches so well. So far I did download MilesAway's set into bank 1. I felt many of his were just outright pretty, not overly complex. I'm putting my own creations or modified patches into bank 5. I downloaded some waveforms from a church pipe organ. I used "high pipes" on osc 1, then a lower deep pipes on osc 2. Split the patch to parts 1 and 2 as stereo. After a lot of fine tuning (for what part of the wave forms was best) and adding a little reverb and such, I got the whole cathedral thing going on. Even added some monk voices to part 3 :) I only had one other "good" church pipe organ in my collection, and that was from the factory program on the P12- which is actually quite impressive.
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Groove actually sent me a link via email to a special version of 1.6 that allows this feature. They are probably waiting to add a few more bug fixes before posting that version on their website. I called it "downloadable" earlier by mistake. Shoot them an email. Just activate the layers you want, then mode/ then tap each (they all stick correctly).
Thanks, it's all good though... I've gotten used to the double tap thing for now -- the only time it was an issue was before I cracked open the manual and understood how it worked. I might like the Mode button method once the downloadable release comes out, but I'm not in any hurry for that one feature.
Have you heard Scott McAuley's new soundset he just released? Worth listening to even if you're not interested in other's sound design. When I saw the video with the Howard Jones "What Is Love" program I thought about how this synth does a nice Jupiter 8 if it is instructed to do so.
Link to that part of the vid here: https://youtu.be/PSRfFl-_F28?t=966
LPF83, I sure have. I like listening to all his synth soundset designs. He presents the various patches so well. So far I did download MilesAway's set into bank 1. I felt many of his were just outright pretty, not overly complex. I'm putting my own creations or modified patches into bank 5. I downloaded some waveforms from a church pipe organ. I used "high pipes" on osc 1, then a lower deep pipes on osc 2. Split the patch to parts 1 and 2 as stereo. After a lot of fine tuning (for what part of the wave forms was best) and adding a little reverb and such, I got the whole cathedral thing going on. Even added some monk voices to part 3 :) I only had one other "good" church pipe organ in my collection, and that was from the factory program on the P12- which is actually quite impressive.
I've been having great fun with the binaural aspect as well, experimenting with different ways to vary the patch in the L and R channels -- it's not that I don't have other synths that can do this (P12, Rev2 etc), it just seems like this synth begs to be used that way.
I agree with something SM says in his YT description -- I do find myself investing more time in patch design on this synth.. Not because it's more difficult (in fact I'd say it's one of the easiest to program synths I've ever used), but because sound design presents us with so many possibilities that I find myself spending more time trying this or that.
Regarding patch storage, I do wish there were enough room for 5 user banks while still preserving the 5 factory banks... but I'm not complaining because 500 patches total is a reasonable amount, and swapping around is easy via USB.
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A little bit related to 3rd wave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIetUzygYEU
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Cool!
Not sure if you're aware, but firmware version 1.7b has been released. The full list of fixes is here:
https://www.groovesynthesis.com/downloads/3WAVE/readme/readme_1_7.txt
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I was not aware. thanks LPF83
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Cool!
Not sure if you're aware, but firmware version 1.7b has been released. The full list of fixes is here:
https://www.groovesynthesis.com/downloads/3WAVE/readme/readme_1_7.txt dinosaur game (https://dinosaur-game.io)
Firmware 0.1.7b is out with a number of fixes. Get it here!
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One thing I've found on the 3rd wave that is an absolute must is an expression pedal... The maddening amount of things you can assign it to really matters on this synth -- and yes you can have other things modulate all of that, but by assigning subtle amounts (and I mean only values between 1 and 6 for some destinations), the results can really be incredible. Yes other synths do this but there's something about the signal path combined with the versatility of this synth and the absurd mod matrix possibilities that makes me want to always map the pedal.
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One thing I've found on the 3rd wave that is an absolute must is an expression pedal... The maddening amount of things you can assign it to really matters on this synth -- and yes you can have other things modulate all of that, but by assigning subtle amounts (and I mean only values between 1 and 6 for some destinations), the results can really be incredible. Yes other synths do this but there's something about the signal path combined with the versatility of this synth and the absurd mod matrix possibilities that makes me want to always map the pedal.
I have one hooked up but haven't even used it yet. Still happily distracted with everything else on it.
By the way LPF83, have you noticed any clicking upon attack on the analogue wave forms? I know that's common on analogue instruments, which easily fixed by backing off of the attack on the envelopes, but I seem to need to back off by 11 "units" before the clicking sound goes away. I also noticed this clicking on some waveforms I had recorded and entered into the user waveform slots, but I just assumed that was part of some artifact in my waveforms.
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By the way LPF83, have you noticed any clicking upon attack on the analogue wave forms? I know that's common on analogue instruments, which easily fixed by backing off of the attack on the envelopes, but I seem to need to back off by 11 "units" before the clicking sound goes away. I also noticed this clicking on some waveforms I had recorded and entered into the user waveform slots, but I just assumed that was part of some artifact in my waveforms.
Yes, it definitely seems clicky on something like a sine wave with attack to 0.. clicks and pops of various origin seem to be present on most of my synths, so I think I've just developed a habit of tweaking the clicks away and / or working around them.
On the 3rd Wave, it almost seems as if the envelope attack at 0 is faster than most synths, and that the intention is to rarely have need for filter and amp attack at 0. Even the init program starts the filter attack out at 34, which I found interesting.
Also you may have noticed clicking is usually worse when you have the oscillators set to free running mode. To paste a quote from the manual that may be helpful:
"Second, in the default mode, the 3rd Wave’s virtual analog oscillators
always start at zero. But in free-running mode, the oscillators could
start at any point in their phase position. In some cases, depending on
the phase position, this can cause a click at the beginning of a note. It is
noticeable mostly if you are using a sine wave, and less noticeable when
you are using a sawtooth or square wave. If you want to avoid a potential
click, try use setting the Amp Envelope’s attack parameter to +20 or
higher."
So, if you're getting acceptable results with the amp attack around +11, I think you're doing good. For me I find I need to go up to at least +16 or so before there's no longer a noticable click on just a sine wave played solo.
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Thanks for the detailed reply. I did flop over to non-free running and that definitely helped. I probably could stand to read the manual again ;). Speaking of envelopes...have you messed with the traditional PPG envelope setting? Seems pretty touchy on the attack front end.
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Thanks for the detailed reply. I did flop over to non-free running and that definitely helped. I probably could stand to read the manual again ;). Speaking of envelopes...have you messed with the traditional PPG envelope setting? Seems pretty touchy on the attack front end.
Yes! The Exponential vs PPG envelopes are a feature of the synth that I don't think has been covered very well in most videos. I've never played a real PPG but I wonder if this is one of the defining characteristics of the PPG sound.
One way to highlight how different they really sound even beyond just sensitivity is to try the amp envelope with each, setting Sustain=0 and Release=0 and adjust only Attack and Decay, but put the envelope in Repeat = On, using the Decay value to control the tempo (so that it's sort of Arp-like at any given speed). Now switch the envelope mode and notice not only the difference required of Attack and Decay values (PPG values will be much lower for a given tempo, very sensitive to small changes like you said), but the difference in the sound itself.
Having such dramatically different envelopes adds a great deal of character to this synth!
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Good to know, I'll give that a try.
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There's an important new menu option in firmware 1.7x that can help with eliminating clicks.
From the release notes:
"New MISC setting per part Envelope retrigger mode to choose between env restarting from 0 or starting from the last value it reached when voice is retriggered. Use the latter for notes with super short gates. This gives you the method of re-trigger in many, (but not all), older analog synthesizers".
So by starting subsequent notes at the same amplitude as the last rather than zero, the click from sudden change in amplitude becomes reduced or eliminated entirely. To hear the difference, try a single sine wave on unison (with 1 voice selected) and play short notes quickly (so that the next note is guaranteed to pick up the amplitude of the previous note), and toggle back and forth between the two Envelope Retrigger Mode options. The benefit becomes lessened as the number of voices increases, but that one of the tradeoffs of polyphony I guess.
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Ok, thanks LPF83. I had not noticed that addition/option. I'll give that a try
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I wish the sequencer was truly independently usable on 4 (or even two) separate layers. If you program one layer it automatically gates the other layers which limits its ability. I've had some workaround success by splitting the keyboard so you can sort of achieve some separation. Another easier way to get some separation is setting arp on one layer and sequencing another layer.
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I wish the sequencer was truly independently usable on 4 (or even two) separate layers. If you program one layer it automatically gates the other layers which limits its ability. I've had some workaround success by splitting the keyboard so you can sort of achieve some separation. Another easier way to get some separation is setting arp on one layer and sequencing another layer.
I have only done very superficial things with the sequencer, but yeah I didn't get the impression it was designed to be a fully featured 4 track sequencer. It's moderately useful for previewing how layers might sound interacting with each other, or if doing sound design putting together a multi layer demo of each program to quickly hear what's inside.
I can recommend the Keystep Pro for 4 track sequencing -- I actually have two of these things that I use in two separate rooms, one in black and one chroma edition (chroma edition is really nice because you can change the track LED colors). Some may have an initially negative response to the small keys, but firstly it is a well built piece of gear and the keys have a truly nice feel to them, and secondly I don't view it as a primary keyboard. It is just a very feature rich multi track sequencer with built in keys for input and great immediacy.
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Thanks for your input LPF83. I actually have the Keystep pro. I agree, it's a very good sequencer and I experimented with sending different tracks to each of the 3rd Wave layers.