The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet => Sequential Prophet X => Topic started by: rasseru on November 24, 2021, 09:12:23 AM
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As title,
I really think this would knock it out of the park for the X, it can be a little precise. please please please consider doing this
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+1
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The Prophet X , has no right to this feature ? Why ?
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Whilst it does not work on samples, this is what the "slop" knob is for on the oscillators in terms of making the tuning less stable
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The Slop is not the same as the Vintage knob /option.
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The Slop is not the same as the Vintage knob /option.
Agreed. Sequential has written a bit on the subject in several different places, but the description originally attached to the Prophet-5 rev 4 is a good starting point:
"We found that much of this desirable character was due to slight fluctuations and differences in the response times and frequencies of the individual VCOs, filters, envelopes, and amplifiers from voice to voice."
Drift over time as embodied in slop might be the least interesting and desirable aspect of classic vintage analog synthesizers. The fact that each voice behaves a little differently, and as a result repeating patterns of notes will interact in interesting ways with the different character of each voice, creating a unique emergent rhythm. For example: an 8-note pattern on a 5-voice synth results in a pattern that superficially appears to repeat every 8 notes, but has a polyrhythmic component with a 5-note cycle, resulting in a subtle 40-note pattern (plus room for some additional natural variation and drift over time.)
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… and knowing they have stereo filters to vintage-ize sounds delicious.
They could give us proper binaural control and a vintage knob and this thing would pop.
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We tried so hard to get around this in the 70s! :)
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IMHO on a sampler a vintage function would even be more interesting and relevant than on a real analog synth.
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I think there is something uniquely interesting about a feature called “Vintage” actually doing something new. If Vintage was applied to the samples and the analog path, it would be something that has not been done yet.
I find the irony interesting.
IMHO on a sampler a vintage function would even be more interesting and relevant than on a real analog synth.
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I think there is something uniquely interesting about a feature called “Vintage” actually doing something new. If Vintage was applied to the samples and the analog path, it would be something that has not been done yet.
I find the irony interesting.
IMHO on a sampler a vintage function would even be more interesting and relevant than on a real analog synth.
I've found that the methodology of the "Vintage Knob" -- (Stable, Curated offsets to Osc Tunings, Filter Cutoff, Envelope ADR timings, etc) is not only great for reproducing vintage analog poly synth character, but it is also a key to getting great string ensembles, brass ensembles, choirs and other acoustic ensemble type of sounds.
If you think about a section of string players in an orchestra for example, each player (a voice), and each instrument (violins for example) is going to have small offsets to each string on their instrument (aka oscillator/sample). Each of those strings will be a few cents +/- sharp or flat... also, each player will play at slightly different intensity (VCA Env Amount and Sustain) and timing (Amp+Filter Envelope Attack, Decay, Release). The Vintage Knob algorithm reproduces exactly this effect - stable, curated offsets to all these parameters... producing all the natural phasing, and temporal offsets that give an ensemble the depth and motion and realistic character.
I've written up a lot of info on the topic here:
https://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com
I don't currently own a Prophet X, but have been considering one. The vintage knob algorithm would certainly be a great upgrade for both the virtual analog classic poly synth sounds, and sample based sounds.
I've been helping out on the beta team for Groove 3rd Wave, and it's moving toward having an excellent implementation of this type of voice variance offsets... and it sounds amazing with both the VA engine, and wavetables/samples! Will be making some videos soon - showing how it sounds with wavetables.
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I'm pretty sure the Prophet X is abandonware at this point an it'll likely be off Sequential's roster before another update.
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Thanks for the input @creativespiral
I've been really interested in your work and have made a somewhat embarrassing video where I tried to re-create the method on the Prophet-6. Literally one day before Sequential released Vintage mode on the Prophet-6. LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvz0lT1PA-4 credits your work.
I had a question for you about pushing these tables external through midi. I think any fine tuning of oscillators will hold throughout the note since their pitch parameters are set as they are struck. I did not do much careful listening when I made my video other than pitch.
Is this also the same for Filter freq and res? On the next note, if you deflect the filter freq, does the previously trigger note maintain its original filter parameters when new ones arrive via external MIDI?
I had previously assumed the control voltages would be Sampled and Held (S&H) for that voice until the next time that voice is activated. I can't think of a way to test that though - especially without having the equipment in my video.
Do the per voice ENVs honor the initial parameters throughout the life of the note? I was thinking the envelopes might snap to the newest setting that is sent.
The reason I'm asking, I've since sold my Nord Modular G2 and I can't experiment like this with the Prophet-X. Unlike the Prophet-6, the Prophet-X has oscillator fine tune for the instrument oscillators (samples) as well as the digital OSCs. (although of note, modulating the fine tune of the sample oscillators is buggy in the mod matrix - too much effect).
I do have a Blokas Midihub which is a programmable MIDI transformation device. They have a programming GUI with modules that can do various things. I was going to request a "Vintage-izer" block/pipeline that took incoming notes and transformed them into "vintage-ized" messages on the output.
Given your published information, I would think it would not be too hard for them to code this block. "Hard" is relative, but they already have the tooling setup and code base.
But an idea like this only works if each note honors its initial trigger parameters (and ignores subsequent incoming messages for the next notes).
There's all kinds of NRPN goodies in the Prophet-X. I don't think the Blokas MIDI can send NRPN, but there's still good stuff in the MIDI CCs.
To @LoboLive's point, we may have to make this ourselves. 8)
I think there is something uniquely interesting about a feature called “Vintage” actually doing something new. If Vintage was applied to the samples and the analog path, it would be something that has not been done yet.
I find the irony interesting.
IMHO on a sampler a vintage function would even be more interesting and relevant than on a real analog synth.
I've found that the methodology of the "Vintage Knob" -- (Stable, Curated offsets to Osc Tunings, Filter Cutoff, Envelope ADR timings, etc) is not only great for reproducing vintage analog poly synth character, but it is also a key to getting great string ensembles, brass ensembles, choirs and other acoustic ensemble type of sounds.
If you think about a section of string players in an orchestra for example, each player (a voice), and each instrument (violins for example) is going to have small offsets to each string on their instrument (aka oscillator/sample). Each of those strings will be a few cents +/- sharp or flat... also, each player will play at slightly different intensity (VCA Env Amount and Sustain) and timing (Amp+Filter Envelope Attack, Decay, Release). The Vintage Knob algorithm reproduces exactly this effect - stable, curated offsets to all these parameters... producing all the natural phasing, and temporal offsets that give an ensemble the depth and motion and realistic character.
I've written up a lot of info on the topic here:
https://www.VoiceComponentModeling.com
I don't currently own a Prophet X, but have been considering one. The vintage knob algorithm would certainly be a great upgrade for both the virtual analog classic poly synth sounds, and sample based sounds.
I've been helping out on the beta team for Groove 3rd Wave, and it's moving toward having an excellent implementation of this type of voice variance offsets... and it sounds amazing with both the VA engine, and wavetables/samples! Will be making some videos soon - showing how it sounds with wavetables.
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Nice vid... that's pretty funny timing that the Vintage Knob update was released the next day! :) I'm pretty certain that transmitting MIDI CC/NRPN changes would affect all voices on PX/P6, even previous ones held down... since the general CC/NRPN doesn't have a parameter to specify voice number it should be applied to. Though, with some reception of MPE/Polyphonic data, there may be a way for limited ability? I haven't looked into that / tested though... may do some experimentation when I get a chance.
You definitely want to have the offsets held per note/voice to get the best vintage character -- and optimally curated for less dissonance between oscillators in a given voice, and deltas between consecutive voices -- and repeatable as voices cycle through.
One potential FW update solution, short of a full vintage knob implementation, would be if just a "Voices / Voice Spread" source (or a couple of variants of that) could be added as a Mod Source in PX matrix. That Voice Spread source, like included on Take 5, is one way to custom route the same type of Vintage Knob variances... ie: it's a curated numeric offset that is held per voice triggered. If there was a "Voice Spread Bipolar" and "Voice Spread Unipolar" source added, that would open up possibility to get pretty deep with voice modeling on PX.
From a FW programming standpoint, it would potentially be easier, since there would be no UI concerns, just a couple extra sources in the matrix, that would directly feed a voice array number lookup to source value:
ie:
Voice Spread Bipolar:
int[] arraySourceVoiceSpreadBipolar = new int[16] { 0, 50, -20, 30, -100, 10, -30, 60, -50, 30, -40, 20, -20, 100, 0, -40 };
Voice Spread Uniopolar:
int[] arraySourceVoiceSpreadUnipolar = new int[16] { 0, 50, 70, 30, 50, 80, 60, 40, 50, 100, 20, 40, 90, 40, 60, 20 };
(Above normalized and curated with 0-100 values... maybe would want to normalize source values to 0-127 or 0-128)
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the Prophet-X has oscillator fine tune for the instrument oscillators (samples) as well as the digital OSCs. (although of note, modulating the fine tune of the sample oscillators is buggy in the mod matrix - too much effect).
Jesus, they did not fix the fine tuning issue on samples? I reported the bug about the Slop/Drift/Random parameters affecting fine tune of samples in the mod matrix way too much some years ago, so there is no vintage knob "function" buildable on the Prophet X in the mod matrix, which is really a shame. Sequential wrote back like they did not believe me or had no time to check this and requested a detailed video, which I never made because I have no DAW and wrote please... just try it.
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We've waited a long time now. Why is it on such relatively limited synths like P6 and OB6 possible to add vintage knob function but not on a powerful display ridden flagship synth?
It still is very laborious (no sample fine tune destination) and practically not smoothly possible (slop works way out of tune on samples) in the matrix so this function still is highly desired by many PX users.