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SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet-5/Prophet-10 => Topic started by: MrMiyagi on August 31, 2021, 12:58:22 PM

Title: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: MrMiyagi on August 31, 2021, 12:58:22 PM
Hi guys,

Am I the only one who feels let down by the brand, after buying a P5 desktop (which came out less than an year ago) and seeing Take 5 being released with same filter/oscillators, with much much more features, at a ridiculously small fraction of the P5 price? I know the P5 is a premium product and it shows... wood finish, buttons.. extra filter etc...But anyway the price difference for these two instruments, released months away from each other makes me feel let down as a Sequential fan and even a bit decieved...
It's just me feeling this way?

Best Regards!
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: LPF83 on August 31, 2021, 04:08:52 PM
Hi guys,

Am I the only one who feels let down by the brand, after buying a P5 desktop (which came out less than an year ago) and seeing Take 5 being released with same filter/oscillators, with much much more features, at a ridiculously small fraction of the P5 price? I know the P5 is a premium product and it shows... wood finish, buttons.. extra filter etc...But anyway the price difference for these two instruments, released months away from each other makes me feel let down as a Sequential fan and even a bit decieved...
It's just me feeling this way?

Best Regards!

I don't feel at all let down... the P5/10 is for those who grew up lusting after a P5 and wanted that specific vintage sound.   I'm not hearing the same sound in the Take5 -- it has a good sound, but not the vintage Prophet sound.  Very different tone coming from the oscillators and I love having the two filter options on the Rev4.

On top of everything else, the huge walnut chassis is like this ominous living being in my studio.  Every single time I walk past it, it inspires me to sit down and make music... no other synthesizer has ever had such an effect.

I can't say yet whether I will be a T5 owner one day -- but if I do it will be because it brings something new to my studio rather than replace something.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: MrMiyagi on August 31, 2021, 05:49:21 PM
I agree with you. The P5 is an incredible instrument, and Rev 4 stil has that "sounds like electricity flowing" quality that the older P5s and other good vintage synths have and which is so hard to reproduce in modern ones.
 I sold my Ob-6 to buy it... couldn't keep them both...and untill this day havent had a secound of regreat. I love it to death.

Although that is not my point. What I'm saying here is that Take 5 has the P5 key components (v3 filter and same oscilators),  same polyphony count, and countless more features for almost three times (!) less the € than what a new P5 keyboard sell for...and it's being released just months after... That's why I feel let down.
Regarding the Take 5 demos... to me they're sounding terrific and actually close to that P5 sound... But I'll have to wait for the real thing to tell, I guess.

Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: Analog Prophet on September 01, 2021, 01:26:36 AM
I ageee, you should not feel discouraged recently bought the P5 desktop as the T5 is another beast. It has some of the P5s quality but not that vintage vibe. Instead it has a modern flavor better suited modern music. P5 can do that as well but the T5 has it all onboard.

If possible I would recommend to keep the P5 and add a T5. If a modern vibe is what you heading for the P5 desktop shouldn’t be that hard to sell to finance the T5 plus a lot of other bonus goodies.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: LPF83 on September 01, 2021, 04:29:23 AM
I agree with you. The P5 is an incredible instrument, and Rev 4 stil has that "sounds like electricity flowing" quality that the older P5s and other good vintage synths have and which is so hard to reproduce in modern ones.
 I sold my Ob-6 to buy it... couldn't keep them both...and untill this day havent had a secound of regreat. I love it to death.

Although that is not my point. What I'm saying here is that Take 5 has the P5 key components (v3 filter and same oscilators),  same polyphony count, and countless more features for almost three times (!) less the € than what a new P5 keyboard sell for...and it's being released just months after... That's why I feel let down.
Regarding the Take 5 demos... to me they're sounding terrific and actually close to that P5 sound... But I'll have to wait for the real thing to tell, I guess.

Once again though, they are not the same oscillators.  Beyond that, there are many other factors that influence the sound of a synthesizer.  Most synthesizers have the abilty to sound like each other if that's what the designer is going for.  For proof of that, listen to Starsky Carr push a Super6 (which has digital oscillators) to sound like a P5...  in another video, he makes it sound like a Jupiter6.  Then go to Alex Balls website where he demonstrates the P10 sounding indistinguishable from a Jupiter 8.   Then there are videos with sound matching between the P6 and the P5 where you can hardly tell the difference.  However, it's important to keep in perspective that just because a synth has the ability to sound the same under certain conditions, does not mean that it always sounds the same, or even that it sounds the same most of the time.  I recently posted a comparison of a bass sound in the P6 forum of a patch-comparison between the Toraiz AS-1 and the P6, which actually have the exact same circuitry, supposedly.   Yet there was still a subtle difference in the AS-1 (probably the fact that it is gain staged for a different voice count) that is very noticable.  What's more, I reproduced the sound using Repro-1 (analog modeling plugin).  If you played a note or two it sounded mostly like the same sound, but when you played outside a very narrow octave range it became obvious that the plugin could not sound the same.

My point to all of this is that a Take 5 is not a Prophet 5 just because it has the same number of voices and one of the filters.  And even if one is unable to distinguish the differences sonically, I don't see a reason to feel let down because the Rev2 can sound similar to a P5 as well, and was already offering much higher voice count, lots of modulation options, etc at a much lower price point (not to mention with an outstanding keybed) before the T5 was introduced.

To be honest, I think the perception you are expressing here is probably why Dave didn't do a reissue of the P5 for such a long period of time.  He was probably thinking the P6 would satisfy most people, because it can sound similar to a P5.  But, the P6, as great as it is, didn't satisfy a lot of people that wanted that authentic vintage P5 sound.

To your point, though I do feel there is definitely some degree of overlap in Dave's product line.  This is the whole reason that I cannot bring myself to buy a Pro3 -- because I already have the filter types and core tone mostly covered in other synths.

Most of the demos I've heard so far of the T5 seem to use onboard FX.  To a gigging musician looking for a portable board, the onboard FX are probably of critical importance, but part of the reason I bought a P10 was because of the core tone without any FX.  I would love to hear a dry-sound comparison between the P5/10 and T5, not just of a patch matched sound but to hear that sound played across wide octave ranges.  Who knows, maybe Starsky Carr or someone will do such a comparison soon.

One great thing about the T5 is the price.  If you feel let down by not owning one, just pick one up!  It's at a price that doesn't require a huge commitment.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: Qwave on September 02, 2021, 02:02:05 AM
Im am not feeling let down.

I always had the urge to own a Prophet 5 No I got a Prophet 10 Rev 4. And the best thing is, it is like a SSM and a CEM version of the vintage one in one well known housing.
The smaller T5 is not I was waiting for since the early 80ies.
But the T5 might be a great synth for some to get a Prophet like feeling without getting a reissue like one Rev 4
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: VicKorfTron on September 09, 2021, 09:40:38 AM
Hi guys,

Am I the only one who feels let down by the brand, after buying a P5 desktop (which came out less than an year ago) and seeing Take 5 being released with same filter/oscillators, with much much more features, at a ridiculously small fraction of the P5 price? I know the P5 is a premium product and it shows... wood finish, buttons.. extra filter etc...But anyway the price difference for these two instruments, released months away from each other makes me feel let down as a Sequential fan and even a bit decieved...
It's just me feeling this way?

Best Regards!

I don't feel let down at all with my P10. I never had as synth that gave me goosebumps like that while playing. The P5/10 had a very warm vintage sound that fit 100% my taste, especially when I play on a Hi-Fi DAC, AMP and speaker.

On top of that, you have now the OS2.0 who bring a lot more to the rev4.

Cheers
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: LoboLives on September 10, 2021, 05:30:07 AM
It's a completely different instrument. Yes there are similarities but if anything the Take 5 is closer to the Prophet 6 than Prophet 5.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: H4x0r on September 18, 2021, 04:43:01 PM
Hi guys,

Am I the only one who feels let down by the brand, after buying a P5 desktop (which came out less than an year ago) and seeing Take 5 being released with same filter/oscillators, with much much more features, at a ridiculously small fraction of the P5 price? I know the P5 is a premium product and it shows... wood finish, buttons.. extra filter etc...But anyway the price difference for these two instruments, released months away from each other makes me feel let down as a Sequential fan and even a bit decieved...
It's just me feeling this way?

Best Regards!

Maybe - but it's normal to feel like that if you aren't invested in the gear you are using.

I'd wager that the dissatisfaction comes primarily from not bonding with the gear you have.

The Prophet is a completely different instrument to the Take5. Every (sensible) manufacturer is going to take advantage of leveraging their own intellectual property to develop new products. The Take5 is far more prophet-6 than Prophet-5 or 10.

What the prophet5/10 reissue IS about, is absolutely NAILING the niche it already created 47 years ago.
And it's perfectly executed (personal opinion).

The Take5 is a really well thought out (dare I say) "Entry Level"  Seq product, designed to give the brands signature 'flavour'  and pack a punch at a very competitive price point. It's not aimed at taking away from it's own prophet-6 market either.

The prophets are more finessed and far more nuanced, as a result they have a much more narrow focus.  Buying a prophet these days is no different to how it was in the 70's and 80's (if you could find and afford one back then, and they are just as expensive in todays 'real world terms' (not strictly inflation-referenced)).

The bottom line really is that the Prophet 5/10 and the OB-6 are very niche instruments which are designed to execute perfectly on their core sounds. It's all about the VCOs.

The DCO's are a very different kettle of fish, and functionality is designed to be more modern and more 'current'. Built in effects and stereo signal path... so far removed from a Prophet 5/10 that  you shouldn't even compare them.

It's like a vintage Rolls Royce being compared to a Tesla. 

If you are not happy with your Prophet, or you expected more than what you have, then I'd suggest moving on from the brand, and look to Roland reissues of the Jupiter or Fantom, maybe a Yamaha Motif or Kurzweil Forte if you want affordable polyphony, sampling and waveform modification. Or go full-emulation with an arturia style setup to achieve what you want to hear.

None of them will sound like a Prophet 5 or 10, even when they have been sampled. They simply can't emulate the oscillator drift that occurs naturally in these very nuanced, organic instruments.

It sounds like you're suffering buyers remorse, because you didn't fully understand how specialized the Prophet is, and it's limitations.

I was watching Loopop last night and his blind comparison test based on J3PO's prophet-10  / prophet-6 'sound comparison'

For me the difference is Blindingly obvious. There is a distinct high end in the prophet-6 that can be clearly heard, and a low mid difference (warmth) that the Prophet-10 has which the 6 simply cannot replicate.

In a couple of areas it is very hard to discern, but for the most part it's blindingly obvious difference.

The Take5 is more like the P6, and makes no excuses...  Just like the Prophet-5 and Prophet-10 make no excuses for being a faithful recreation of their ancestors.

Know the limitations of what you're buying and know what the instrument excels at. Most of all, if you don't bond with it or it leaves you with an undefineable hesitance or doubt, then it is not for you.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: Steve Modana on September 21, 2021, 03:43:40 AM
Yes all true, but bottom line is - the Take5 is a 2 SSI OSC and 1 SSI Filter synth with loads of mod capabilities, which include the Prophet5 completely mod-whise. If the Dave Rossum SSI (SSM) Sound is fine for you, the Take5 is all you need. But if one needs the CEM sound, you still need to get the Prophet5/10. That's it.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: xanax on September 21, 2021, 06:23:23 AM
By Sequentials own admission several shortcuts were made on Take5 in order to reach that price point. The whole audio back-end is digital (basically everything after the VCF). On P5/P10 the audio is 100% analog (doesn't go through AD/DA). Even the polymod section is analog. Only the LFO & envelopes are digital. You can't fully bypass the digital FX on Take 5.. it is technically closer to a hybrid.

Don't get me wrong, I think T5 sounds great and is quite affordable. But a P5/P10 it is not. Even if it can get close on certain basic sounds. No polymod section and round-robin vs per key voice allocation. Also now with the P10 V2 firmware and P5 expansion board, you get splits/stacks which elevates them to a whole new level of bi-timbral sound design.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: Steve Modana on September 21, 2021, 08:13:08 AM
...Even the polymod section is analog. Only the LFO & envelopes are digital. You can't fully bypass the digital FX on Take 5.. it is technically closer to a hybrid.

If the LFO & Env are digital, the P5/10 Poly-Mod is also hybrid. But here is something not quite right: The Env & LFO, even if calculated digitally, will output CV at the end. So it's voltage again, and behaves like voltage (analog).

And the T5 will also need to output CV to mod the OSCs and filters, so it's the same principle.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: xanax on September 21, 2021, 11:09:27 AM
...Even the polymod section is analog. Only the LFO & envelopes are digital. You can't fully bypass the digital FX on Take 5.. it is technically closer to a hybrid.

If the LFO & Env are digital, the P5/10 Poly-Mod is also hybrid. But here is something not quite right: The Env & LFO, even if calculated digitally, will output CV at the end. So it's voltage again, and behaves like voltage (analog).

And the T5 will also need to output CV to mod the OSCs and filters, so it's the same principle.

The difference is that the actual audio signal path remains analogue in P5 whereas it goes into a AD/DA in T5 after the VCF and then everything (LFO,FM,EG,VCA) is digital. There is also no way to fully bypass the digital FX. That's what makes it hybrid.



Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: Steve Modana on September 21, 2021, 12:13:14 PM
FM obviously won‘t be digital as between the SSI oscs, and VCA itself means analog. But I get what you want to say. Do you have any proof of an A/D conversion in the signal path of the T5, other than for FX? Any schematics of the signal flow?
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: xanax on September 21, 2021, 02:58:49 PM
FM obviously won‘t be digital as between the SSI oscs, and VCA itself means analog. But I get what you want to say. Do you have any proof of an A/D conversion in the signal path of the T5, other than for FX? Any schematics of the signal flow?

Topic has been discussed in great lengths over on GS and more or less confirmed by Sequential. This topic was actually first raised on Pro3 which uses a similar analog front end and digital back end. Notice on Sequentials product page how Take5, Pro3 & Prophet-X are the only synths that don't contain the word analog in their subtitle. Also no mention of FX being fully bypassed as is specified on P6/OB6. Not too hard to read in between the lines.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: Steve Modana on September 21, 2021, 10:14:35 PM
So nobody knows for sure what’s going on. Perfect😂
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: H4x0r on September 22, 2021, 05:51:25 AM
So nobody knows for sure what’s going on. Perfect😂

I think we all have the gist of it, but the exact points where the change occurs is not officially verified.

Hybrid is a clever moniker.

Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: Steve Modana on September 23, 2021, 01:10:34 PM
I had a conversation via Mail with sequential - and it’s true: from the filter on they digitize the signal and use a „virtual VCA“. But if the fx and distortion are not used, it’s just pure analog sound, only A/D converted.
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: xanax on September 24, 2021, 07:22:26 AM
Told ya so  ;)
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: SynthHead on September 24, 2021, 10:01:18 AM
I couldn't give AF about Take 5.. to me it looks stupid, has a stupid name and a tiny keybed (width wise). I'd never have been in the market for it even IF it did sound, truly, as good and as 'analog' as the Prophet 10 rev 4 (with both filters and no conversion going on).

I guess.. maybe had I bought only a P5 MODULE I might be a bit more... remorseful? but not much.. the P5 module still has a purity of sound, two filters etc. But with the keyboard P10 with stack mode, PU2 mode and a legendary name (not "take-5" < seriously who dreamed that up it's awful) I'll never regret buying it, and gladly letting all my old sequential gear 'also rans' go (Prophet 6, OB-6 and def the insipid Prophet 08 Rev 2). OB-6 is a fine synth actually, but still not 'all that' vs the Prophet rev 4s, and the Prophet 6 sounds like a phoned in version of a prophet 5 compared to the rev 4s... (Prophet 08 doesn't even SOUND like a prophet at all), and then there's the 4 octaves and tiny size issue for all that cash.

No regrets, in fact Prophet 10 will be my ONLY poly synth from next month and I'll never buy another poly synth again. It's THAT good. NOTHING I've tested against it sounds as good. Nothing. So why own other hardware? I can use software for fancy icing... but for poly analog, Prophet 10 R4 is jupiter beating, memorymoog beating, OB-X beating (more flexible, weightier and vivid than those)
Title: Re: Feeling a bit let down... P5/Take 5
Post by: LPF83 on September 25, 2021, 12:09:43 PM
There seems to be a lot of turbulence around the T5 that I don't quite understand.  Folks have long complained Sequential polys are too expensive, so Dave released a product that addresses that.  I think the fact that it shares one of the Rev 4 filters created a certain expectation or fear that this was going to be a Rev4 killer for a fraction of the price.  The first time I heard it, I knew it was not that.  But it sounds great - absolutely nothing like a vintage Prophet, but great nonetheless.

It sometimes seem like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario with product design.  If Dave had called the T5 a Prophet-anything, everyone would be crying blasphemy.  He's always said he wants each product to have a distinct sound and personality, and I think he achieved that with this product.  When he put a 2 pole filter in the OB6, if he had called that a Prophet BX or something, I think there would have been uproar.. so he did the right thing and got Tom Oberheim involved.  Here he created a 5 voice synth that, from what I can tell in YT vids, likely sounds better than competitors at the same price point.  It's geared to be a portable synth that has a lot of features in a small footprint.  Honestly I think Dave succeeded at what he set out to do and I believe the product will be a success long-term.