The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
OTHER DISCUSSIONS => General Synthesis => Other Hardware/Software => Topic started by: LPF83 on July 30, 2021, 06:22:58 PM
-
Prototype of new product from upcoming Walmart catalog. Sixty bucks out the door and you get sixteen free cans of canned sturgeon. Marketing worked on the demo display sign, it reads "Instrument aint premium but the fish sure as fuck is" :) Uli's my hero.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1Cd8bMkH2uk/YQSiWH4NxhI/AAAAAAAOLDY/jqGby_YJh6kp1Tbh152bfFu7AkZG84K1gCNcBGAsYHQ/s834/228391323_10159532374028914_224687596923873640_n.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kh0Y7pENclI/YQSiW6vYMHI/AAAAAAAOLDc/Wn-h7Ds2VxcGL-__fBTKPA_5aKuyu3NGgCNcBGAsYHQ/s1148/217897741_10159532374058914_3819524411384988682_n.jpg)
-
Boring. Zzzzzzzzz
-
Looks like it will be bi-timbral, judging by what looks like dual stereo outputs. Wonder if they’ve incorporated some T8 features.
-
Boring. Zzzzzzzzz
:).. thread title was sarcasm
-
Looks like it will be bi-timbral, judging by what looks like dual stereo outputs. Wonder if they’ve incorporated some T8 features.
I just don't understand why Behringer is so obsessed with these lackluster knock-off synths. I understand they are targeting the sub-premium market and focusing on inexpensive products, and I understand that some enthusiasts would prefer to buy lower cost items more frequently than to buy a premium product they'll want to keep for decades. But, if that's their target buyer, wouldn't that segment of buyers be more interested in getting something new and shiny every year? Why would that segment want to buy something thats "based on" another instrument, one that's been around for 40 years?
I think the DeepMind 12 was a good seller for them, no? To me, that product makes more sense -- perhaps "inspired" by Juno, but not necessarily trying to rip off the appearance and sound directly.
-
Given the often ugly nature of B's biz practices, I'm not surprised that the synths he makes are also often quite unattractive. Except I AM surprised! The Prophet 5 is - for me - the most beautiful of synths. To see a proposed B version that looks like an elephant's idea of a pancake breakfast kinda does my head in.
-
Given the often ugly nature of B's biz practices, I'm not surprised that the synths he makes are also often quite unattractive. Except I AM surprised! The Prophet 5 is - for me - the most beautiful of synths. To see a proposed B version that looks like an elephant's idea of a pancake breakfast kinda does my head in.
I think that's why I felt compelled to post those images. Doing a knock-off of what is (I and many would agree with you) the most attractive synth ever made, and not even getting the basic aesthetics of the instrument right, just shows what a hack job their design process is. Look at photos of the DM12, the UBXA, and this atrocity side by side... it appears to be the same basic case with minor differences.
-
Looks like it will be bi-timbral, judging by what looks like dual stereo outputs. Wonder if they’ve incorporated some T8 features.
I just don't understand why Behringer is so obsessed with these lackluster knock-off synths. I understand they are targeting the sub-premium market and focusing on inexpensive products, and I understand that some enthusiasts would prefer to buy lower cost items more frequently than to buy a premium product they'll want to keep for decades. But, if that's their target buyer, wouldn't that segment of buyers be more interested in getting something new and shiny every year? Why would that segment want to buy something thats "based on" another instrument, one that's been around for 40 years?
I think the DeepMind 12 was a good seller for them, no? To me, that product makes more sense -- perhaps "inspired" by Juno, but not necessarily trying to rip off the appearance and sound directly.
Because people feel entitled to be able to play expensive vintage instruments and feel that Sequential and Moog and their supporters are elitists who don't care about the "poor struggling artists" and Behringer are exploiting it. Even some of Sequential's supporters on YouTube were legit upset that the Prophet 5/10 reissues were as expensive as they are and felt it was "unfair."
These plebs need to buy helmets because life fucking hurts.
-
Prototype of new product from upcoming Walmart catalog. Sixty bucks out the door and you get sixteen free cans of canned sturgeon. Marketing worked on the demo display sign, it reads "Instrument aint premium but the fish sure as fuck is" :)
Careful–even Walmart works with licensed brands.
The best response one can give is, "come on in, the water's warm." There are a lot of smaller manufacturers here in the US who are leveraging the current container freight situation, and its effects upon product availability, to their own advantage.
Having something on one's doorstep is infinitely more valuable than having an unfinished facsimile on one's social media feed(s).
-
Looks like it will be bi-timbral, judging by what looks like dual stereo outputs. Wonder if they’ve incorporated some T8 features.
I just don't understand why Behringer is so obsessed with these lackluster knock-off synths. I understand they are targeting the sub-premium market and focusing on inexpensive products, and I understand that some enthusiasts would prefer to buy lower cost items more frequently than to buy a premium product they'll want to keep for decades. But, if that's their target buyer, wouldn't that segment of buyers be more interested in getting something new and shiny every year? Why would that segment want to buy something thats "based on" another instrument, one that's been around for 40 years?
I think the DeepMind 12 was a good seller for them, no? To me, that product makes more sense -- perhaps "inspired" by Juno, but not necessarily trying to rip off the appearance and sound directly.
Because people feel entitled to be able to play expensive vintage instruments and feel that Sequential and Moog and their supporters are elitists who don't care about the "poor struggling artists" and Behringer are exploiting it. Even some of Sequential's supporters on YouTube were legit upset that the Prophet 5/10 reissues were as expensive as they are and felt it was "unfair."
These plebs need to buy helmets because life fucking hurts.
So the theory is that Behringer is catering to their sense of rebellion, and the "look-alike" design is almost a form of mockery or getting back at "the system"? If that's the reason, then it's certainly an interesting psychological study.
Thing is, the reason so much great music was made in the golden age of synths is because musicians didn't spend all day whining on social media. Some of them did whatever they had to do (even selling their car) to be able to afford a Prophet. Or some of them found less expensive options like a DX7 or a Casio CZ. Lots of great music was created with low-cost synths. But the ones that put themselves on the map did so because they found enough inspiration in that instrument to go deep enough on it to create good things.
Personally, it is the inspiration I get from my Rev4 that makes it my favorite synth -- everything from the sound to the aesthetics to the feel of the knobs.
None of these low-cost clone synths from Behringer have sparked any sort of inspiration in me to buy them.
-
Gee, if what's-his-face continues with his current business model, he just might put all the great synthesizer companies out of business. Then he'd be out of designs to imitate in the ugliest ways and might actually have to invent another instrument of his own, rather than shamelessly borrow from the geniuses. But as they say, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." So, I am pleased that what's-his-face so looks up to Dave Smith and his brilliant designs.
I once worked part-time in a machine shop, basically washing tractor parts and assembling them. I didn't like the guy who ran it, and we often enough argued about things. Then one day he took me to his office and showed me that he stole designs online and then produced them himself. He actually used the word "pirate" in describing himself. Perhaps he was saving his customers a pretty penny, but that certainly wasn't his motivation. It didn't matter to me; I was disgusted by the attitude and the process. Since then I've had a special loathing for the pirate-type and avoid them like the virus.
Similarities? What similarities?
-
...Oh, and that Prophet 16 is the ugliest Prophet synthesizer I've ever seen.
-
Looks like it will be bi-timbral, judging by what looks like dual stereo outputs. Wonder if they’ve incorporated some T8 features.
I just don't understand why Behringer is so obsessed with these lackluster knock-off synths. I understand they are targeting the sub-premium market and focusing on inexpensive products, and I understand that some enthusiasts would prefer to buy lower cost items more frequently than to buy a premium product they'll want to keep for decades. But, if that's their target buyer, wouldn't that segment of buyers be more interested in getting something new and shiny every year? Why would that segment want to buy something thats "based on" another instrument, one that's been around for 40 years?
I think the DeepMind 12 was a good seller for them, no? To me, that product makes more sense -- perhaps "inspired" by Juno, but not necessarily trying to rip off the appearance and sound directly.
Because people feel entitled to be able to play expensive vintage instruments and feel that Sequential and Moog and their supporters are elitists who don't care about the "poor struggling artists" and Behringer are exploiting it. Even some of Sequential's supporters on YouTube were legit upset that the Prophet 5/10 reissues were as expensive as they are and felt it was "unfair."
These plebs need to buy helmets because life fucking hurts.
So the theory is that Behringer is catering to their sense of rebellion, and the "look-alike" design is almost a form of mockery or getting back at "the system"? If that's the reason, then it's certainly an interesting psychological study.
Thing is, the reason so much great music was made in the golden age of synths is because musicians didn't spend all day whining on social media. Some of them did whatever they had to do (even selling their car) to be able to afford a Prophet. Or some of them found less expensive options like a DX7 or a Casio CZ. Lots of great music was created with low-cost synths. But the ones that put themselves on the map did so because they found enough inspiration in that instrument to go deep enough on it to create good things.
Personally, it is the inspiration I get from my Rev4 that makes it my favorite synth -- everything from the sound to the aesthetics to the feel of the knobs.
None of these low-cost clone synths from Behringer have sparked any sort of inspiration in me to buy them.
I’ve noticed that YouTube players who own Moog Ones, Quantums, Prophets, etc never go on other people’s channels and bash them for using lower tier gear or budget equipment. They are always supportive. People who play Behringer synths or budget gear in general religiously always seem to go on videos of Moog Ones, Prophet Xs, Quantums and bash the gear and the user out of spite.
-
...Oh, and that Prophet 16 is the ugliest Prophet synthesizer I've ever seen.
Indeed. Even the Creamware Prophet clone managed to master the simple task of creating a simple wood box with knobs without it looking like the wood is a glue-on laminate pattern. And I never felt like crapping on Creamware for the Pro-12, because at the time, Dave wasn't even offering proper Prophet synths so it seemed like a legitimate attempt to fill a market need.
Uli strikes me as someone who is certainly business savy, and longs so badly to have his name badge displayed on important musical instruments, alongside legends like Dave Smith and Tom Oberheim.... yet in his jealousy has made such petty career choices that despite any level of monetary success, he will always be regarded as a joke and industry reject, and the class clown that nobody respects.
-
I'd love to see Sequential produce an improved version of the DeepMind 12. Just move a few parameters around, add one more voice, call it the "Sequential DM 13," and set the price at $869. If people complain, just say the competition is good for everybody and kids who don't have much money now have another choice of synthesizers. I mean, what else matters?
-
I'd love to see Sequential produce an improved version of the DeepMind 12. Just move a few parameters around, add one more voice, call it the "Sequential DM 13," and set the price at $869. If people complain, just say the competition is good for everybody and kids who don't have much money now have another choice of synthesizers. I mean, what else matters?
I’d love to see Sequential get out of the whole reissue game all together. Now it’s become a pissing contest between Dave and Uli instead of innovation. If Dave does do an OBX reissue and then Behringer do their UBXa then this isn’t even exciting anymore. People are going to complain regardless about the prices of Sequential synths and Uli is going to be there to exploit that...why even play that game?
-
It was just a joke, like this whole thread.
-
It was just a joke, like this whole thread.
Sometimes I feel a bit boring playing it so straight, but the reissued Prophet 5 is one of the loveliest things to happen in such a time of global anxiety. It's a truly beautiful instrument, simple as that. It's thrilling to look at, and of course to play. It sounds gorgeous. I feel lucky to have one right next to me. Whether I'm dull or not, the P5 has never been anything less than a profound source of excitement and musical mystery and buzz.
-
It was just a joke, like this whole thread.
Sometimes I feel a bit boring playing it so straight, but the reissued Prophet 5 is one of the loveliest things to happen in such a time of global anxiety. It's a truly beautiful instrument, simple as that. It's thrilling to look at, and of course to play. It sounds gorgeous. I feel lucky to have one right next to me. Whether I'm dull or not, the P5 has never been anything less than a profound source of excitement and musical mystery and buzz.
Hear hear!
-
To see a proposed B version that looks like an elephant's idea of a pancake breakfast kinda does my head in.
Reminds me of this:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/this-is-the-hilarious-result-of-an-18thcentury-guys-attempt-to-stuff-a-lion/amp.html
-
I’ve noticed that YouTube players who own Moog Ones, Quantums, Prophets, etc never go on other people’s channels and bash them for using lower tier gear or budget equipment. They are always supportive. People who play Behringer synths or budget gear in general religiously always seem to go on videos of Moog Ones, Prophet Xs, Quantums and bash the gear and the user out of spite.
Well, that's subjective... to me it seems that many of those "purists" lack the restraint to not piss on the B, they just can't pass up on it when given the opportunity... I mean, so many seem so very invested in it, emotionally. I don't really understand why. Anyhow or either way, you don't have to blame the "other side" as if "they're worse" or "they started" or whatever, as justification. "...never go on other people’s channels and bash them for using lower tier gear or budget equipment. They are always supportive." Nice lala-land there, but well, I've seen loads that are not. I don't find the picture to be as black and white as you imagine it, with two camps. And I've see quite some animosity at times, against those who own a B synth, or other B gear. Often condescending stuff. Why? What's the point or reward? I don't get it.
"People who play Behringer synths or budget gear in general religiously always seem to go on videos of Moog Ones, Prophet Xs, Quantums and bash the gear and the user out of spite." Objective conclusion...? Yeah, I know you said "in general", ie not 'everyone', but it's still quite a bit of generalisation. Check the mirror before you bash too hard yourself!
"These plebs need to buy helmets because life fucking hurts." Yeah, well try not to let it affect you too much... ;)
If "any PR is good PR", it's like the purists are working for B. They make much fuzz, which B could appreciate.
-
I’ve noticed that YouTube players who own Moog Ones, Quantums, Prophets, etc never go on other people’s channels and bash them for using lower tier gear or budget equipment. They are always supportive. People who play Behringer synths or budget gear in general religiously always seem to go on videos of Moog Ones, Prophet Xs, Quantums and bash the gear and the user out of spite.
Well, that's subjective... to me it seems that many of those "purists" lack the restraint to not piss on the B, they just can't pass up on it when given the opportunity... I mean, so many seem so very invested in it, emotionally. I don't really understand why. Anyhow or either way, you don't have to blame the "other side" as if "they're worse" or "they started" or whatever, as justification. "...never go on other people’s channels and bash them for using lower tier gear or budget equipment. They are always supportive." Nice lala-land there, but well, I've seen loads that are not. I don't find the picture to be as black and white as you imagine it, with two camps. And I've see quite some animosity at times, against those who own a B synth, or other B gear. Often condescending stuff. Why? What's the point or reward? I don't get it.
"People who play Behringer synths or budget gear in general religiously always seem to go on videos of Moog Ones, Prophet Xs, Quantums and bash the gear and the user out of spite." Objective conclusion...? Yeah, I know you said "in general", ie not 'everyone', but it's still quite a bit of generalisation. Check the mirror before you bash too hard yourself!
"These plebs need to buy helmets because life fucking hurts." Yeah, well try not to let it affect you too much... ;)
I personally don't understand why one person would care what gear another has as long as they are happy with it, but I think its important to separate that idea (caring what gear someone uses) from the general idea of interwebs, e-penis and what not, which is just that people become careless in what they say on the web and don't consider impact on the other side.
What I do understand (to a certain extent) is the anti-Uli fervor, simply because he has done some very "unsavory" and litigious things that seem to reek more of the insecure than the talented. But then again, he never claimed talent, he claims profit. And it appears he is very effective at what he does.... it's just that in the realm of music creation, corporate success tends to not get as much respect as authenticity, and this is where his company seems to show weakness. Lots of marketing, lots of cloning, and lots of teasers and lots of promises then on to the next thing.
I believe it is this, and the perceived hubris by an industry that admires art over sport, that makes people hate what his company is doing.
As far as forum arguments of one camp belitting the other, I think that it creates fertile ground for flame wars when someone says "OMG I just got a PolyD and it sounds the same as a Minimoooooog" or whatever. Its like its asking for trouble of the unproductive variety.
I personally don't believe Behringer instruments are bad, and I do believe (despite not having owned one, and from my observations) they are probably a REALLY good bang for the buck. The only Behringer gear I have owned (briefly) was an audio interface -- one that had very high ratings and supposedly good pre amps. But under scrutiny it had crosstalk problems, and this is the kind of thing that really affects the final output. It's probably not something someone with only 1 or 2 instruments would notice.
As far as the creation of this thread, I was really just being goofy when I posted it. I love my P10 and to me the idea of Behringer coming out with a 16 voice clone that holds up to the real deal is kind of humorous in itself, because the voicing is such that more than 10 (or 5 in poly unison) is so thick that the idea of even finding room for 16 voices in a mix (without intentionally thinning it out) was kind of funny to me. It was kind of like someone in marketing decided a higher number on the badge would end up with some folks saying its better because it has more voices... lol
Overall, I think Behringer would get more respect if they simply did one thing -- figure out ways to make unique instruments. What can they bring to the table (even if its small or incremental) that other instruments have not yet done? Don't focus on imitating others with mediocre results and doing so with a marketing approach. Focus on making musical instruments that have a distinct sound... that if you're lucky, will make its mark on music in some way that is hard to reproduce any other way. This is the very thing that made vintage instruments great. It seems like Uli made up his mind he wants to be a follower with good marketing rather than a leader, and that's where the bad rap comes in.
-
I personally don't understand why one person would care what gear another has as long as they are happy with it, but I think its important to separate that idea (caring what gear someone uses) from the general idea of interwebs, e-penis and what not, which is just that people become careless in what they say on the web and don't consider impact on the other side.
That's exactly my point, I don't understand it either.
What I do understand (to a certain extent) is the anti-Uli fervor, simply because he has done some very "unsavory" and litigious things that seem to reek more of the insecure than the talented. But then again, he never claimed talent, he claims profit. And it appears he is very effective at what he does.... it's just that in the realm of music creation, corporate success tends to not get as much respect as authenticity, and this is where his company seems to show weakness. Lots of marketing, lots of cloning, and lots of teasers and lots of promises then on to the next thing.
I believe it is this, and the perceived hubris by an industry that admires art over sport, that makes people hate what his company is doing.
Absolutely! I certainly understand the flack towards B, but not the generalization, categorization and polarization, applying a broad brush approach, derogatory name-calling, etc etc, between USERS of supposed "camps" (which are non-existant imo, just a fabrication in some peoples minds). I don't care which "side" one is on (though I don't even view it as sides), but all that is just silly and immature. And trying to paint a black/white picture of the "camps" as above, isn't convincing either... Some seem to try to make it an issue of the "righteous" vs the "damned". "THIS side is made up of only good guys, always polite etc etc. But THAT side... oh man, they're practically *insert derogatory name-calling here*" (No, I'm not even gonna...)
That said, the worst and most common hostility that I've personally seen, seem to be the purists belittling those who own a B. Why not leave them alone? Yes, many are poor "noobs", superhappy to be able to own a cheap analog synth. And I don't think defecating on them will change their minds, I mean how is that constructive...?
[/quote]
As far as forum arguments of one camp belitting the other, I think that it creates fertile ground for flame wars when someone says "OMG I just got a PolyD and it sounds the same as a Minimoooooog" or whatever. Its like its asking for trouble of the unproductive variety.
Yup, and I bet there are some "trolls" who don't necessarily even own one, and poke 'em in the eye for fun. I mean, some of those purists seem so easily offended, they're practically troll-prey. Even if they're sincere and not trolling, I don't understand the urge or need to correct them, and even moreso to act condescendingly towards them. Yes, many noobs with a D. No, they don't necessarily know what they're talking about. So what? I don't get it, especially when some make derogatory comments, "People who play Behringer synths or budget gear in general religiously always seem to go on videos of Moog Ones, Prophet Xs, Quantums and bash the gear and the user out of spite.", at the same time as boasting how "righteous" their camp is, only made up of good guys who "...never go on other people’s channels and bash them for using lower tier gear or budget equipment. They are always supportive."
That's my concern.
I personally don't believe Behringer instruments are bad, and I do believe (despite not having owned one, and from my observations) they are probably a REALLY good bang for the buck. The only Behringer gear I have owned (briefly) was an audio interface -- one that had very high ratings and supposedly good pre amps. But under scrutiny it had crosstalk problems, and this is the kind of thing that really affects the final output. It's probably not something someone with only 1 or 2 instruments would notice.
As far as the creation of this thread, I was really just being goofy when I posted it. I love my P10 and to me the idea of Behringer coming out with a 16 voice clone that holds up to the real deal is kind of humorous in itself, because the voicing is such that more than 10 (or 5 in poly unison) is so thick that the idea of even finding room for 16 voices in a mix (without intentionally thinning it out) was kind of funny to me. It was kind of like someone in marketing decided a higher number on the badge would end up with some folks saying its better because it has more voices... lol
I agree.
Overall, I think Behringer would get more respect if they simply did one thing -- figure out ways to make unique instruments. What can they bring to the table (even if its small or incremental) that other instruments have not yet done? Don't focus on imitating others with mediocre results and doing so with a marketing approach. Focus on making musical instruments that have a distinct sound... that if you're lucky, will make its mark on music in some way that is hard to reproduce any other way. This is the very thing that made vintage instruments great. It seems like Uli made up his mind he wants to be a follower with good marketing rather than a leader, and that's where the bad rap comes in.
I agree. While I can understand cloning the D to make available for poor people (which I think popularizes synthesizers overall, to non-musicians for instance), and make lots of profit off it, I was hoping they'd get back on their previous track, following up the Deepmind with an original instrument (well, they did the Crave, but...). I'm actually not very interested in their clones, but would love to see what they could do with all the knowledge they've acquired from the cloning and backwards-engineering... Putting together elements from various classics with newer, preferrably innovative, elements. Ie they should have collected a great amount of tools for their toolbox by now... I'd be interested to see what could be made with those tools, reimagined and with some inventiveness.
So, in essence... my main point was the polarization and generalization that leads to name-calling etc. "Camps" that I fail to realize. I view any synth-owner as an individual, and not part of some imagined "club" where everyone's the same. Shit on the B if you like, but don't shit on people.
Just to clarify, in case someone thinks I'm hypocritical when using "purist" as a word (I don't want to invite making a hen out of an egg). Again I DON'T view it as two camps, so when I say "purist" I don't mean to generalize, but rather imply a role that someone chooses to play in the context of a discussion, regardless of them owning a Minimoog or whatever, or not. I think it's a TINY amount of OG synth owners who act the "purist", just as I think it's a TINY amount of D owners who act "D=Minimoog". Most just don't bother or care, (I don't,) they just want to play their synth, no matter if it's a D or a Minimoog they own. No need to justify either. Which is why this "generalization" and black/white picture painted disgusts me so, it's judgmental. We should be ABOVE that crap. THAT'S what I personally bother and care about, and the reason why I sometimes reply to posts in this kind of thread.