The Official Sequential/Oberheim Forum
SEQUENTIAL/DSI => Prophet-5/Prophet-10 => Topic started by: Quatschmacher on June 01, 2021, 01:12:50 AM
-
Does anyone else notice this?
My Rev 1/2 filter seems to track all the way up the keyboard but the Rev 3 is off on the top 19 keys.
-
Maybe depends on how much the filter is open to begin with ?
Cheers !
-
Maybe depends on how much the filter is open to begin with ?
But then that would have to also happen when the 1/2 filters are engaged.
@Quatschmacher - Let me check mine - Any particular patch that pronounces this best ?
-
No patch in particular. I simply turn resonance to maximum, put key tracking on full and tune the filter to either a key or to the reference pitch. If you mix on a little oscillator volume, you can hear when the tracking goes out.
I get that it might be to do with the difference between V/octave and equal temperament tuning. Just curious why one filter is dead on and the other not.
-
On the other hand, if there was no difference the 1/2 and 3 filter options
would be rather pointless .......
They mimic the behavior of Rev.1 / 2 vs Rev.3 according to the man who
made them in the first place, so I think they do what they supposed to do ....
If Rev.3 filter does not do what you want it to do, stick to Rev 1 / 2 filters ;)
Cheers !
-
No patch in particular. I simply turn resonance to maximum, put key tracking on full and tune the filter to either a key or to the reference pitch. If you mix on a little oscillator volume, you can hear when the tracking goes out.
I get that it might be to do with the difference between V/octave and equal temperament tuning. Just curious why one filter is dead on and the other not.
Well you stumped me on this one. I for some reason can not recreate this issue. Or I am not knowing what to do/listen for. LOL But it seems kinda self explanatory and I followed your instructions to a tee. The 1/2 Filter is a little more slow but more pronounced than the 3 filter. But neither seems to go dead at the top 19.
By tracking, you mean the keyboard tracking thing right ? Where the filter opens up more and more as you climb the keys ? In turn kinda gets louder as a byproduct on the settings you said (max res), cutoff tuned to A ref.
-
No patch in particular. I simply turn resonance to maximum, put key tracking on full and tune the filter to either a key or to the reference pitch. If you mix on a little oscillator volume, you can hear when the tracking goes out.
I get that it might be to do with the difference between V/octave and equal temperament tuning. Just curious why one filter is dead on and the other not.
Well you stumped me on this one. I for some reason can not recreate this issue. Or I am not knowing what to do/listen for. LOL But it seems kinda self explanatory and I followed your instructions to a tee. The 1/2 Filter is a little more slow but more pronounced than the 3 filter. But neither seems to go dead at the top 19.
By tracking, you mean the keyboard tracking thing right ? Where the filter opens up more and more as you climb the keys ? In turn kinda gets louder as a byproduct on the settings you said (max res), cutoff tuned to A ref.
The issue is that on the top 19 keys, the tuned filter is out of tune with the oscillators on one filter revision but not the other.
I’m simply trying to ascertain whether this is expected behaviour or not. I know the envelope response between the two filters differs but not sure that scaling ought to differ.
I guess I’ll likely email support about it to get a definitive answer.
-
On the other hand, if there was no difference the 1/2 and 3 filter options
would be rather pointless .......
They mimic the behavior of Rev.1 / 2 vs Rev.3 according to the man who
made them in the first place, so I think they do what they supposed to do ....
If Rev.3 filter does not do what you want it to do, stick to Rev 1 / 2 filters ;)
Cheers !
I certainly know that their envelope responses differ by design; I don’t recall reading anything about differences in their ability to track the keyboard across the five-octave span so wanted to check if other users notice similar behaviour. Does your unit do this?
-
Tried a little, and switching from rev 1/2 to rev3 went out of tune, but after adjusting
cutoff knob it worked well over the whole keybed .......
On some sounds it went off a little in the high register, but not on all sounds ......
(Perhaps my P-10 was not warmed up enough :o )
Might depend on how much "detuned" OSC 1 and 2 is, or if there is any "Pulse With" applied ???
Or "Vintage" knob position ..... Have no clue, and it´s not that important to me.
If I ever need some sound like that I´ll use Rev. 1/2 mode :)
Cheers !
-
Tried a little, and switching from rev 1/2 to rev3 went out of tune, but after adjusting
cutoff knob it worked well over the whole keybed .......
On some sounds it went off a little in the high register, but not on all sounds ......
(Perhaps my P-10 was not warmed up enough :o )
Might depend on how much "detuned" OSC 1 and 2 is, or if there is any "Pulse With" applied ???
Or "Vintage" knob position ..... Have no clue, and it´s not that important to me.
If I ever need some sound like that I´ll use Rev. 1/2 mode :)
Cheers !
Oscillators were tuned precisely, Vintage knob set to 4, sawtooth only (so pulse width not an issue). I’m using this to create some organ patches and it works fine on 1/2 but not on 3.
-
The issue is that on the top 19 keys, the tuned filter is out of tune with the oscillators on one filter revision but not the other.
Oh.. out of tune - I swear you said "dead" (sorry I somehow misread that part, as you said "dead on" - my bad man, I been working a lot on projects around my house and when I log on and even mess around on my synths lately, I am just not 100%)
- I was listening for them to disappear. At same time, when something is out of tune I should hear that too. BUT I did what HockeBocke said he did, but I started out doing that (just by default). I used the cutoff filter to tune the filter resonance sound to A ref. I thought that is what you meant.
Maybe, just maybe me doing that caused me to not hear the out of tune thing as HockeBocke said using cutoff filter fixed the issue for him ??? Just maybe ??
IDK, now that I understand more, I am going to test again later when I got time (painting my game room now/soon)
-
Ok, I have verified this myself. With all settings remaining the same. There is a definitely tracking issue with the upper register in the rev 3 filter vs the 1/2 filter. Very weird. This is beyond just difference in characteristics. You can hear that too within the keys that sound good between them both, but once you hit the high register, all hell breaks loose on the rev3 filter option and it sounds out of tune, ugly, etc..
I'd say this is official, unless they did this on purpose. I never owned a vintage rev3, so I can not say if thats its normal character. That said, this issue only rears its head up when the settings are as Quatschmacher said - Res maxed is the main thing.
-
Ok, I have verified this myself. With all settings remaining the same. There is a definitely tracking issue with the upper register in the rev 3 filter vs the 1/2 filter. Very weird. This is beyond just difference in characteristics. You can hear that too within the keys that sound good between them both, but once you hit the high register, all hell breaks loose on the rev3 filter option and it sounds out of tune, ugly, etc..
I'd say this is official, unless they did this on purpose. I never owned a vintage rev3, so I can not say if thats its normal character. That said, this issue only rears its head up when the settings are as Quatschmacher said - Res maxed is the main thing.
I just did some tests on mine, I felt it tracked as expected across the range of keys on both filter types. It can get a bit metallic and unappealing sounding on the far upper keys, but I didn't feel the filter tune was off.
Does it behave the same whether you have it in P5 voice allocation vs RR? I tried it on the Prophet6 and was surprised at the havoc slight voice tuning differences make in this particular test (my P10 is in P5 voice mode currently, how I normally play it).
-
I just did some tests on mine, I felt it tracked as expected across the range of keys on both filter types. It can get a bit metallic and unappealing sounding on the far upper keys, but I didn't feel the filter tune was off.
Does it behave the same whether you have it in P5 voice allocation vs RR? I tried it on the Prophet6 and was surprised at the havoc slight voice tuning differences make in this particular test (my P10 is in P5 voice mode currently, how I normally play it).
You might have discovered it does not do it when in 5voice mode. I had mine in 10voice mode. Here is what it sounds like if dialed in correctly to hear it and also in 10voice mode.
https://youtu.be/WFvLBotudhs (https://youtu.be/WFvLBotudhs)
The video does not explain much as I try to keep it short, but it is dialed in like this, Filter Res: Max, Envelope minimal, Filter Cutoff dialed in to make "A" key be in the key of "A" (approx 10o'clock'ish). Osc B get a tone up, make in tune to filter tune and loud enough to just begin to hear it enough so that if the layering filter tune goes out of pitch, you'll hear it.
Then I just toggle between filters 1/2 and 3. And that is the difference. IMO, that's not normal. And if it is, it shouldn't be. lol.
-
I just did some tests on mine, I felt it tracked as expected across the range of keys on both filter types. It can get a bit metallic and unappealing sounding on the far upper keys, but I didn't feel the filter tune was off.
Does it behave the same whether you have it in P5 voice allocation vs RR? I tried it on the Prophet6 and was surprised at the havoc slight voice tuning differences make in this particular test (my P10 is in P5 voice mode currently, how I normally play it).
You might have discovered it does not do it when in 5voice mode. I had mine in 10voice mode. Here is what it sounds like if dialed in correctly to hear it and also in 10voice mode.
https://youtu.be/WFvLBotudhs (https://youtu.be/WFvLBotudhs)
The video does not explain much as I try to keep it short, but it is dialed in like this, Filter Res: Max, Envelope minimal, Filter Cutoff dialed in to make "A" key be in the key of "A" (approx 10o'clock'ish). Osc B get a tone up, make in tune to filter tune and loud enough to just begin to hear it enough so that if the layering filter tune goes out of pitch, you'll hear it.
Then I just toggle between filters 1/2 and 3. And that is the difference. IMO, that's not normal. And if it is, it shouldn't be. lol.
I might try more tests tomorrow and try to mirror your settings. Wanted to mention though, I wasn't referring to 5 voice versus 10 voice mode, I'm referring to P5 mode versus round robin voice allocation. Round robin is like the P6, tapping the same key plays a different voice with each successive tap, versus classic P5 where tapping the same key plays the same voice.
-
Wanted to mention though, I wasn't referring to 5 voice versus 10 voice mode, I'm referring to P5 mode versus round robin voice allocation. Round robin is like the P6, tapping the same key plays a different voice with each successive tap, versus classic P5 where tapping the same key plays the same voice.
Dang, my bad brother.. You are right. lol I have no clue why I concluded that sentence wrong. Yes I am familiar with the RR. My Oberheim OB-Xa and Matrix 12 does that.
But like you, I had mine in the P5 Voice Allocation as well. Also, 10 voice. I will try 5 voice, and also RR and combinations thereof to see if any make a difference.
Thanks for clearing that up btw.
-
Round robin causes noticeable differences - some voices are in tune with the filter others are not.
I switched between revisions on a held note and the difference at the upper end was that the rev3 filter can do a semitone fiat. I need to do this test on each repeated note when playing round robin.
-
Wanted to mention though, I wasn't referring to 5 voice versus 10 voice mode, I'm referring to P5 mode versus round robin voice allocation. Round robin is like the P6, tapping the same key plays a different voice with each successive tap, versus classic P5 where tapping the same key plays the same voice.
Dang, my bad brother.. You are right. lol I have no clue why I concluded that sentence wrong. Yes I am familiar with the RR. My Oberheim OB-Xa and Matrix 12 does that.
But like you, I had mine in the P5 Voice Allocation as well. Also, 10 voice. I will try 5 voice, and also RR and combinations thereof to see if any make a difference.
Thanks for clearing that up btw.
I just tried the settings you've described and could not reproduce the sound in the video. Tuning stays consistent across the key range assuming envelope amount is at 0 (I think that's what you meant by minimal, but once its anything but zero then naturally the filter starts to go a little nuts as that's going to affect the quantization).
Speaking of which, as I was doing these tests, the whole reason Dave likes to quantize the filter really hit home with me. Even though the stepping is a tradeoff, the tones coming out of that filter are so sweet it was hard to stay focused on the test and not start writing musical hooks with it. I think that has always been Dave's thing and why the Prophet 5 found itself into so much music, the sheer versatility of what could be done with so few controls. The way that filter can sound is amazing.
If your envelope amount is zero in that video, I'd recommend contacting support to see what they say. The symptoms sound a little like keyboard tracking isn't really on full (though I assume it is in your test).
-
Watch these. I got more technical -Killed the Osc, so Filter is solo'ed, Used a tuner, also tested in all settings 5voice, 10 voice, P5&RR allocation - all equals same thing. Subtle differences of course, but all equals same result = Rev.3 filters do not track good in the upper registers.
https://youtu.be/ZfnGGDwDQPU (https://youtu.be/ZfnGGDwDQPU)
https://youtu.be/vHqelFZE49A (https://youtu.be/vHqelFZE49A)
https://youtu.be/Ob8Zb0Bb3Wk (https://youtu.be/Ob8Zb0Bb3Wk)
-
Yes, envelope amount was set to zero and filter tracking on full. I have a support ticket open but seem to being told it’s normal, though I have now sent links to Infrared’s videos as further demonstration.
-
Experimenting with mine, I have seen some things I cannot explain but overall have to conclude the filter is tracking properly.
In one test, using the built-in Cubase Tuner plug-in, when I started out with the settings (env amt=0, resonance=max, keyboard=full, cutoff=approx 3 (tuned to A by ear using the reference tone), I found it tracked fine but could be off by maybe plus or minus 7 or 8 cents in either direction, which to me is a musically useful (if not pleasant) amount of detune and would be typical for the oscillators a VCO synth... Then with some minor knob tweaks, suddenly I found that even at the same settings, with a new init patch and repeating the adjustments, everything was off by a much higher range, plus or minus 40 cents which is very noticable. Then I pressed the Tune button to auto calibrate, and then repeating the test, the detune amount was approx 2 or 3 cents in either direction (about as tight as it can get with an analog synth).
Switching between filter types 1/2 or 3 didn't seem to matter.
So I have to conclude for now there is no problem with my particular unit here -- but it does seem to suggest that when calibrated, the filter tuning should track reasonably closely, at least not a half-semitone off or anything.
-
I have a support ticket open but seem to being told it’s normal
I don't see how they sit there with a straight face and say tracking so badly out of tune is normal. And if it is normal, then why doesn't rev1/2 filters do it ?
The end all of end all to this would be simple - Find someone with a vintage rev.3 and see if indeed at high registers the filter tracks out of tune. If it does, then hell, this is normal and oh well. Don't use rev3 filters ! lol Cause they suck.
If it is not the way a vintage rev3 tracks, (which I am betting this is the case) then we have proved to them that this is *not* normal.
-
Experimenting with mine, I have seen some things I cannot explain but overall have to conclude the filter is tracking properly.
In one test, using the built-in Cubase Tuner plug-in, when I started out with the settings (env amt=0, resonance=max, keyboard=full, cutoff=approx 3 (tuned to A by ear using the reference tone), I found it tracked fine but could be off by maybe plus or minus 7 or 8 cents in either direction, which to me is a musically useful (if not pleasant) amount of detune and would be typical for the oscillators a VCO synth... Then with some minor knob tweaks, suddenly I found that even at the same settings, with a new init patch and repeating the adjustments, everything was off by a much higher range, plus or minus 40 cents which is very noticable. Then I pressed the Tune button to auto calibrate, and then repeating the test, the detune amount was approx 2 or 3 cents in either direction (about as tight as it can get with an analog synth).
Switching between filter types 1/2 or 3 didn't seem to matter.
So I have to conclude for now there is no problem with my particular unit here -- but it does seem to suggest that when calibrated, the filter tuning should track reasonably closely, at least not a half-semitone off or anything.
Thanks for reporting back and even taking the time to do all this. I agree 7to8 cents in either direction or less is fine. But you can clearly see in mine it was way further off. Also, just mix a osc with it and its clearly ugly. So..hmmm
I was wondering, maybe its not a tracking issue when in lower registers tone wise ? So just curious, did you tune your filter's "A" to the same pitch register wise as I had mine ? (in other words, high pitch.) - If you're cutoff was around 3, that suggests to me maybe you tuned your "A" a octave lower ?
As far as the calibration - I will try this too. But again, 2 things - #1, I tune regularly and have it pretty set up as far as the memory bank of tuning thing. But I did retune before when I first noticed this as of course I thought that was the issue too, and it did not help the rev.3 filter. And #2 - if it was just a tuning thing, apparently it seems both filters would be out of tracking tune. In which yes, a tuning would help.
It would be weird if only I and Quatschmacher had these issues. But I guess it is possible ? Which really sucks if so :-(
Then again, I will have to be honest, I barely use rev3 filters+ it takes certain settings to make this happen, of which settings I rarely would use normally. So its no disastrous for me, but it is a concern, nor should it be like this regardless.
-
I was wondering, maybe its not a tracking issue when in lower registers tone wise ? So just curious, did you tune your filter's "A" to the same pitch register wise as I had mine ? (in other words, high pitch.) - If you're cutoff was around 3, that suggests to me maybe you tuned your "A" a octave lower ?
It would be in the same octave if you took OSC1 up one octave from init patch to C3. I guess 3 isn't really accurate, its between 3 and 4... I look at the controls from an angle rather than straight down.. 10 oclock is a better description.
But as I verified for purposes of this post, I noticed it couldn't hit a solid A again, it was about 40 cents flat. No idea why, I reinit the patch and then its back to only a couple of cents difference. Seems like something is going on that I can't quite explain. None of this is really an issue for me though, because the rare times I use the filter to depend on pitch, it is mostly only to add a certain organ-like quality to the timbre.
My understanding is that self-oscillating filters behave a bit differently than an oscillator anyway -- I don't fully understand the science but it is effectively tuned feedback and isn't necessarily guaranteed to produce a pure sine at all ranges for all filter types, its more of a serendipitous side effect (or that's the way I've always viewed it).
-
I just tried this experiment on the Prophet 6, and results were similar -- the filter could easily be 45 cents out of tune.
I think it's just the nature of how a self oscillating filter behaves, probably nothing wrong with your P10.
The OB-6 has a 2-pole filter and cannot do this at all. The Prophet 12 can in 4-pole mode, but because the key tracking has such a wide range (its not just half or full), if you find A in one key, good luck getting the key up an octave to even be in the same key, forget about cents out of tune.
So basically I'd say what support said is correct. And on the Rev4 you might actually be getting the closest thing available (at least in the sequential line) to having a self oscillating filter that can track across so many octaves.
Maybe someone with a vintage P5 could confirm the behavior there?
-
So then the rev1/2 filters just somehow magically track better ? A older filter design performs better ? Oh wait -- yea that does make sense haha ! ;D :P
Thanks for trying it on the 6. I'd say its how it is then. I admit, the only P5/10 I ever owned before or extensively used was when I got my P5 rev.2 (original version) about 15 years ago. So I really had no basis to compare, other than my rev.2 does not do this. I've never owned a rev.3.
Yes I agree, finding someone with a rev3 to verify this would be great.
-
So then the rev1/2 filters just somehow magically track better ? A older filter design performs better ? Oh wait -- yea that does make sense haha ! ;D :P
Thanks for trying it on the 6. I'd say its how it is then. I admit, the only P5/10 I ever owned before or extensively used was when I got my P5 rev.2 (original version) about 15 years ago. So I really had no basis to compare, other than my rev.2 does not do this. I've never owned a rev.3.
Yes I agree, finding someone with a rev3 to verify this would be great.
I guess somewhere along the line confused between inconsistencies I found during my test (which focused on Rev3 filter type) and the actual topic of the thread (why Rev3 and 1/2 would behave differently). I did not see much difference when I switched filter types. I just came to the conclusion that because of the nature of what a self-oscillating filter is and how keyboard tracking is implemented on various synths, it cannot really be expected to behave exactly like an oscillator when it comes to keyboard tracking -- and my conclusion may be off. In terms of why the difference between filter options on one synth versus another, I have no real insight there. But you say filter tracks perfectly (on both your P5 rev2 and your P10)?
-
So then the rev1/2 filters just somehow magically track better ? A older filter design performs better ? Oh wait -- yea that does make sense haha ! ;D :P
Thanks for trying it on the 6. I'd say its how it is then. I admit, the only P5/10 I ever owned before or extensively used was when I got my P5 rev.2 (original version) about 15 years ago. So I really had no basis to compare, other than my rev.2 does not do this. I've never owned a rev.3.
Yes I agree, finding someone with a rev3 to verify this would be great.
I guess somewhere along the line confused between inconsistencies I found during my test (which focused on Rev3 filter type) and the actual topic of the thread (why Rev3 and 1/2 would behave differently). I did not see much difference when I switched filter types. I just came to the conclusion that because of the nature of what a self-oscillating filter is and how keyboard tracking is implemented on various synths, it cannot really be expected to behave exactly like an oscillator when it comes to keyboard tracking -- and my conclusion may be off. In terms of why the difference between filter options on one synth versus another, I have no real insight there. But you say filter tracks perfectly (on both your P5 rev2 and your P10)?
Yes, vintage P5 rev.2 filter tracks perfectly under same test, and yes P10 .rev1/2 filter tracks perfectly as shows in my videos. (perfectly =within musical reason). But P10 rev.3 filter has the issues shown in video.
My video was showing differences between filters, as that is what I was doing, swapping 1/2 filter for 3 filter and not changing any settings. Proving, normal or not, that 1/2 filter tracks perfect and 3 filter is horribly off in upper high registers.
-
[/quote]
Yes, vintage P5 rev.2 filter tracks perfectly under same test, and yes P10 .rev1/2 filter tracks perfectly as shows in my videos. (perfectly =within musical reason). But P10 rev.3 filter has the issues shown in video.
My video was showing differences between filters, as that is what I was doing, swapping 1/2 filter for 3 filter and not changing any settings. Proving, normal or not, that 1/2 filter tracks perfect and 3 filter is horribly off in upper high registers.
[/quote]
Conclusion : Use the 1 / 2 filter if you want a sound with oscillating feedback in perfect pitch ;)
Case closed ?
Cheers !
-
Conclusion : Use the 1 / 2 filter if you want a sound with oscillating feedback in perfect pitch ;)
Case closed ?
Cheers !
Well no, and yes. Like I said, for me, yes that is what I will do. And frankly, it doesn't effect me much. But that's not what these forums are about. This is about reporting issues, whether they effect you or not. To have no compassion towards the fact someone else might be effected by it drastically is not a right attitude. We just want to report everything and get things working right to help Sequential too. No matter how small.
Check it out, that would be like me popping into your thread and saying: "Conclusion, don't use a expression pedal ! Case closed."
I would never do that. Even though me personally do not use expression pedals, so it would be very easy for me to look at it that way. It don't effect me, I will never need that or worry about it, so why should Sequential fix that ? Well to be the bigger man here, I will say they should fix it and everything possible that we report or ask, because then, it will be a super kick ass product ! It already is, yes, but everything could always be better. Especially when working directly with users. And even if something doesn't effect me much, it would be great to help everything get fixed/addressed.
I imagine someone might want to use filter rev3 for some characteristic is has, plus have it track in good pitch. Using filters 1/2 might ruin their vibe. And that would suck.